Ted Kennedy

[Cecilia Penifader]

I can't speak for the liars and hypocrites in this thread, but I'm against government torture.

I assume that you vehemently oppose government torture and what Ted Kennedy did to poor Mary Jo in the name of consistency, too. Right?

The liar part comes in when you equate the two. Government torture and DUI manslaughter are not equivalent. So even though we can condemn both, to put them on the same level in the same context is just bullshit.

I don't think they are equivalent, but Neo Art seemed to think that people who criticize Ted Kennedy for the Chappaquiddick incident probably don't care about government torture because they lack in human kindness. I think both actions are wrong, regardless of whether one is wrongER than the other, and I expect Neo Art, who I'm sure is just teeming with human kindness, to feel the same way.

[Bergnovinaia]

Ted Kennedy will get way less attention for a few reasons. One he wasn't a pervert singer who was great at singing. Two he won't still be in the news months after his death. 3 his death was not a homicide (Micheal Jackson's was determined to be sometime in the past few days.) And 4 we know what caused his death. Tragic that he won't get as recognized? Yes. Suprising? No.

[Muravyets]

I don't think they are equivalent, but Neo Art seemed to think that people who criticize Ted Kennedy for the Chappaquiddick incident probably don't care about government torture because they lack in human kindness. I think both actions are wrong, regardless of whether one is wrongER than the other, and I expect Neo Art, who I'm sure is just teeming with human kindness, to feel the same way.

If you refuse to draw a distinction of degree of wrongness between a single incident of DUI with a fatality and a prolonged program of torture against many people conducted by a government, then you ARE treating them as if they are equivalent. And if you admit that you know they are not equivalent, then NA's term "liar" applies.

Another thing that suggests dishonesty on your part is your subtle implication that NA was suggesting that DUI is not wrong. Which of course he did not. Not even close. But I'm sure that was just an error in wording on your part.

[Taeshan]

Well he isn't exactly the "king" of pop, although he was a pretty high up person that weas well respected.

[H N Fiddlebottoms VIII]

I can't speak for the liars and hypocrites in this thread, but I'm against government torture.

I assume that you vehemently oppose government torture and what Ted Kennedy did to poor Mary Jo in the name of consistency, too. Right?

The liar part comes in when you equate the two. Government torture and DUI manslaughter are not equivalent. So even though we can condemn both, to put them on the same level in the same context is just bullshit.

True. One cannot equate a policy with potential benefits for the greater number (just because torture is ineffective has nothing to do with the moral level, that's a practical concern), and the actions of a stupid, selfish asshole who climbs behind the wheel of a car while intoxicated.

[Curious Inquiry]

I dislike all politics. ("poli" = latin for "many" and "tics" are bloodsucking arachnids)
It would be remiss of us to forget Mary Jo, while rightly praising the good Senator Kennedy helped achieve. He was human (as was Michael Jackson), and it is important to acknowledge the good and the bad.

[Cecilia Penifader]

I don't think they are equivalent, but Neo Art seemed to think that people who criticize Ted Kennedy for the Chappaquiddick incident probably don't care about government torture because they lack in human kindness. I think both actions are wrong, regardless of whether one is wrongER than the other, and I expect Neo Art, who I'm sure is just teeming with human kindness, to feel the same way.

If you refuse to draw a distinction of degree of wrongness between a single incident of DUI with a fatality and a prolonged program of torture against many people conducted by a government, then you ARE treating them as if they are equivalent. And if you admit that you know they are not equivalent, then NA's term "liar" applies.

Another thing that suggests dishonesty on your part is your subtle implication that NA was suggesting that DUI is not wrong. Which of course he did not. Not even close. But I'm sure that was just an error in wording on your part.

Why would that make me a liar again? When have I lied?

Neo Art challenged critics of Ted Kennedy on Chappaquiddick regarding the issue of government torture. He argued that they're feigning human kindness in regards to Mary Jo, and the proof lies in the fact that they also support torture. He thought the faking of human kindness made them liars.

I responded by saying that I don't support torture and I don't condone Chappaquiddick, either, and that I expect him to similarly prove that he's also not feigning human kindness by opposing torture and condoning Ted Kennedy's actions out of some "partisan hackery."

I never drew a parallel between torture and Chappaquiddick. I wasn't the person who compared them originally. That was Neo Art. I just answered an accusation. And remember when I said that I don't think they're equivalent? That was me drawing a distinction. I can say that two actions are wrong and not necessarily mean that I think they're equivalently wrong. Stealing and genocide? Both wrong. Equivalently wrong? Obviously not. So, again, I'm failing to understand how exactly I'm a liar.

[Cecilia Penifader]

I can't speak for the liars and hypocrites in this thread, but I'm against government torture.

I assume that you vehemently oppose government torture and what Ted Kennedy did to poor Mary Jo in the name of consistency, too. Right?

The liar part comes in when you equate the two. Government torture and DUI manslaughter are not equivalent. So even though we can condemn both, to put them on the same level in the same context is just bullshit.

True. One cannot equate a policy with potential benefits for the greater number (just because torture is ineffective has nothing to do with the moral level, that's a practical concern), and the actions of a stupid, selfish asshole who climbs behind the wheel of a car while intoxicated.

Agreed. That's why I didn't equate them. I said they weren't equivalent. (Scroll up.) I also said they were both wrong, which they are. That in no way means I think they're on the same level. If anyone put them on the same level, Neo Art did when he drew a parallel between them on the basis of "human kindness." I simply made the argument if human kindness compels us to oppose torture, then it should also compel us to oppose Ted Kennedy's actions. Again, for those who aren't paying attention, that does not mean that I said they were the same.

[The american north]

todaay have lost a true american hero

[Neo Art]

You know, I always find it funny, that the very people who rail about poor Mary Jo are the same people who, when faced with the fact that we as a government almost certainly tortured innocent people, calmly shrug their shoulders and go "so?"

It makes me think that their constant saber rattling was less born from any legitimate milk of human kindness and more partisan hackery. It makes them...oh, what's the term I'm looking for...oh, right. Liars.

I can't speak for the liars and hypocrites in this thread, but I'm against government torture.

Then since, by your own admission, my statement doesn't apply to you, I'm at a loss as to why you've been harping on it for the last page.

[Capitalistliberals]

True. One cannot equate a policy with potential benefits for the greater number (just because torture is ineffective has nothing to do with the moral level, that's a practical concern), and the actions of a stupid, selfish asshole who climbs behind the wheel of a car while intoxicated.

this post is disgusting to me. sorry but it just is. it implys that the greater good outweighs rights, torturing even if it does save lives is still disgusting it takes a human being and degrades and destroys them in a way worse than death itself. never and i mean NEVER is torture an acceptable policy for a government. furthermore politics throughout US history has said no to torture of prisoners and that it is illegal.

[Cecilia Penifader]

You know, I always find it funny, that the very people who rail about poor Mary Jo are the same people who, when faced with the fact that we as a government almost certainly tortured innocent people, calmly shrug their shoulders and go "so?"

It makes me think that their constant saber rattling was less born from any legitimate milk of human kindness and more partisan hackery. It makes them...oh, what's the term I'm looking for...oh, right. Liars.

I can't speak for the liars and hypocrites in this thread, but I'm against government torture.

Then since, by your own admission, my statement doesn't apply to you, I'm at a loss as to why you've been harping on it for the last page.

Have you even read what I wrote? I wasn't talking to you. I was explaining and re-explaining our (yours and mine) original argument because What's Her Face has been calling me a liar. (She doesn't really understand what's going on, I think.) If that's harping on it, then so be it, but I'm not even really dealing with your accusation anymore because, as you said, it doesn't apply to me. But thanks.

[The Romulan Republic]

This matters, why?

Actually, I kind of hope for the sake of his family that he doesn't get the coverage Jackson does, with the media vultures spending months picking over his life and legacy.

[Neo Art]

meanwhile, what DUI? I do not believe Senator Kennedy was ever charged with, indicted for, convicted of, or pled to the crime of operating a motor vehicle under the influence of anything.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think so

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

[quote="H N Fiddlebottoms VIII";p="499294"]True. One cannot equate a policy with potential benefits for the greater number (just because torture is ineffective has nothing to do with the moral level, that's a practical concern), and the actions of a stupid, selfish asshole who climbs behind the wheel of a car while intoxicated.

I love how you justify torture on a utilitarian level and then, mid sentence, discard the moral significance of the practicality of torture. Seems a bit self-contradictory, don't you think?

[Tunizcha]

Senator Ted Kennedy may have made some mistakes, but he was a very good person. He himself worked hard to improve the lives of millions of Americans all over the nation. He was bipartisan and gained the respect of Democrats and Republicans alike. He lived through the era where the Senate acted more like a family and worked together.

[Osun State]

Even though am not an american, I am so thouch by the exstralodnarry work the Kennedys have done in the politics in us.

[Farnhamia]

meanwhile, what DUI? I do not believe Senator Kennedy was ever charged with, indicted for, convicted of, or pled to the crime of operating a motor vehicle under the influence of anything.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think so

Wiki sayeth, "On July 25, seven days after the incident, Kennedy entered a plea of guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury. Kennedy's attorneys suggested that any jail sentence should be suspended, and the prosecutors agreed to this, citing Kennedy's age, character and prior reputation. Judge James Boyle sentenced Kennedy to two months' incarceration, the statutory minimum for the offense, which he suspended."

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

I think the reason why Jackson has been getting more attention is because of the drug overdose controversy, and not because of bad things that Kennedy has done.

[Vetalia]

Michael Jackson was more popular and better known than Ted Kennedy. He gets more coverage because it's a more sensational story.

[Farnhamia]

I think the reason why Jackson has been getting more attention is because of the drug overdose controversy, and not because of bad things that Kennedy has done.

A drug overdose that's been ruled a homicide, even, while Senator Kennedy's death was not unexpected.

[Wilgrove]

A true statesman like him deserves more coverage than Michael Jackson. - A shame he is not getting it.

Not surprising though. Most people tend to know more about Michael Jackson than any politicians, especially the one they voted to represent them in Congress and The Senate.

[Deus Malum]

meanwhile, what DUI? I do not believe Senator Kennedy was ever charged with, indicted for, convicted of, or pled to the crime of operating a motor vehicle under the influence of anything.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think so

Wiki sayeth, "On July 25, seven days after the incident, Kennedy entered a plea of guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury. Kennedy's attorneys suggested that any jail sentence should be suspended, and the prosecutors agreed to this, citing Kennedy's age, character and prior reputation. Judge James Boyle sentenced Kennedy to two months' incarceration, the statutory minimum for the offense, which he suspended."

Which says nothing about a DUI, and only about leaving the scene of an accident.

[Muravyets]

True. One cannot equate a policy with potential benefits for the greater number (just because torture is ineffective has nothing to do with the moral level, that's a practical concern), and the actions of a stupid, selfish asshole who climbs behind the wheel of a car while intoxicated.

The only error in your statement is the part about potential benefits. There are no benefits, either potential or actual, in torture, and there never were.

[Farnhamia]

meanwhile, what DUI? I do not believe Senator Kennedy was ever charged with, indicted for, convicted of, or pled to the crime of operating a motor vehicle under the influence of anything.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think so

Wiki sayeth, "On July 25, seven days after the incident, Kennedy entered a plea of guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury. Kennedy's attorneys suggested that any jail sentence should be suspended, and the prosecutors agreed to this, citing Kennedy's age, character and prior reputation. Judge James Boyle sentenced Kennedy to two months' incarceration, the statutory minimum for the offense, which he suspended."

Which says nothing about a DUI, and only about leaving the scene of an accident.

Which was all he was charged with.