Question and opinions

[Treznor]

It`s not true. Listen Humanity is rational. But individual`s choose to be rational or irrational.

How can you have freedom as long as your are forced to pay taxes to go into welfare. How can you have freedom when the goverments restricts you with regulations. How can you have freedom when the goverment gets in and begians monopolies like the public school system.

Because the government isn't telling you what to do with your life. The government is simply gathering the resources to ensure that more people have the choice of what to do with their lives. That you call it "theft" doesn't make it so.

Shall we call it "theft" because the government appropriates funds for military spending? Yes, that's explicitly written into the Constitution, but it's still government taking your money away from you. The difference is that even the most stone-headed conservative doesn't complaing about government spending in that arena. They only complain when government spending could actually help people.

Ever wonder why people snicker when they hear the phrase "compassionate conservative?"

number one I am not a consvertive I am a Objectivist. number 2 the goverment should be spending in the military because it`s the goverment`s job to run it. The goverment`s only job is to defend your rights not to provide you with money,food and everything else. You have to provide yourself with all of that

Oh, right. You're a Ferengi. I don't know how I could have confused you for a conservative.

Otherwise, thank you for demonstrating my point perfectly.

[Tubbsalot]

It`s not true. Listen Humanity is rational.

ololololololololo

But individual`s choose to be rational or irrational.

OLOLOLOLOLOLO

That's an interesting viewpoint. I assume that such a bizarre idea has some basis in experience, so tell me, when was the last time you sat down and thought "hmm - I think today I'll be rational"?

Rationality is not a choice. Rationality is a goal. Even if you want to be rational, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll achieve it. Most people will never manage to be mostly-rational, because humans are inherently irrational creatures - if we weren't, we could replicate thought processes pretty much perfectly using computers. We are quite terrible at reasoning. I don't know how to stress this any more than I have.

Of course, given certain goals - for example, "the technological and economic development of the species" - it's actually far more rational to work with others, rather than against others. Far more efficient. That's why society exists.

[Barringtonia]

Europe may be a place with great culture and history. But europe is one of the worst`s places to live. Europe is ruled by the EU and there socialists.

Really? BusinessWeek rated the best cities to live in based on various criteria and European cities took 7 of the top 10 places, the first US city came in at 27.

With very Bad Healthcare

..and longer life expectancies.

Have you ever been to Europe or do you just listen to lies?

People come to the US for treatment because we have better healthcare. Which for the moast part is private and it`s better`s than goverment run healthcare in europe.

People in the US go to South Africa, Thailand, Jordan and more,

An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that a million and a half would seek health care outside the US in 2008. The growth in medical tourism has the potential to cost US health care providers billions of dollars in lost revenue.[4]

[History land]

It`s not true. Listen Humanity is rational. But individual`s choose to be rational or irrational.

How can you have freedom as long as your are forced to pay taxes to go into welfare. How can you have freedom when the goverments restricts you with regulations. How can you have freedom when the goverment gets in and begians monopolies like the public school system.

How can you have freedom where a large section of the population is constantly in fear of starvation and death if they lose their job, since there's no safety net? How can you have freedom when corporations are unregulated, can destroy the envrionment without punishment, and impose brutal working conditions on workers? How can you have freedom when the poor cannot afford a decent education?

Here's the answer. A small group have freedom in your utopia. They are called "the rich". Everyone else only has the freedom to starve. And that, right there, is what I call a negative right.

You still do not understand my point. If a individual works hard and has the abllity to work they will surivie. It`s the workers that actually work who get ahead. Plus we need to exploit this planet it has resources we could be using but we are restricted by enviormentalists. We live longer when there is more industrialisation it has been proven. Also a individual worker can negoiate his or her own condtions. Plus the poor would get an education if there were more private schools. More private schools which means they would not be expensive and there would be more choices.

In my utopia. The Rich or as I like to call them The Producers actually worked to get that money. Everyone has the freedom to work for his own self-intrests. Anyone that does not work because they don`t have the abllity and are lazy will starve and die. Why because the Producers have worked. The Failures have failed. Now if you were disabled and couldn`t work there is something called charity. Which is theVoluntarly giving of your own money.

[History land]

Europe may be a place with great culture and history. But europe is one of the worst`s places to live. Europe is ruled by the EU and there socialists.

Really? BusinessWeek rated the best cities to live in based on various criteria and European cities took 7 of the top 10 places, the first US city came in at 27.

With very Bad Healthcare

..and longer life expectancies.

Have you ever been to Europe or do you just listen to lies?

People come to the US for treatment because we have better healthcare. Which for the moast part is private and it`s better`s than goverment run healthcare in europe.

People in the US go to South Africa, Thailand, Jordan and more,

An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that a million and a half would seek health care outside the US in 2008. The growth in medical tourism has the potential to cost US health care providers billions of dollars in lost revenue.[4]

I don`t think you know. more people survive cancer in the US than they do in like Great Britian

[Barringtonia]

*snip*

Everyone understands your point, they understand it as having no relation to reality.

[History land]

That`s the biggest joke if I heard one.


Let me tell you something. China and India do not give crap about the enviorment and look how well there doing.

[Barringtonia]

I don`t think you know. more people survive cancer in the US than they do in like Great Britian

Aside from the 50 million uninsured people in the US, even those who are insured will rapidly lose it once they're not working due to illness, then they have no job and no healthcare.

The amusing thing about all of this is that the bill before Congress isn't even single-payer healthcare, it's a platform to provide greater choice at better cost.

I don't even know what you people are arguing against.

[History land]

You tell me when we had no regulations about the enviorment. How come we have lived longer. Gotten abdunces of energy and we didn`t care about the enviorment. We keep caring about the enviorment we would die. We live longer than the people before the industrial revolution

[Tubbsalot]

That`s the biggest joke if I heard one.


Let me tell you something. China and India do not give crap about the enviorment and look how well there doing.

Environmentalism is all about economics... do you have any idea how hard it is to run an economy on a dead world?

[Treznor]

You still do not understand my point. If a individual works hard and has the abllity to work they will surivie. It`s the workers that actually work who get ahead. Plus we need to exploit this planet it has resources we could be using but we are restricted by enviormentalists. We live longer when there is more industrialisation it has been proven. Also a individual worker can negoiate his or her own condtions. Plus the poor would get an education if there were more private schools. More private schools which means they would not be expensive and there would be more choices.

In my utopia. The Rich or as I like to call them The Producers actually worked to get that money. Everyone has the freedom to work for his own self-intrests. Anyone that does not work because they don`t have the abllity and are lazy will starve and die. Why because the Producers have worked. The Failures have failed. Now if you were disabled and couldn`t work there is something called charity. Which is theVoluntarly giving of your own money.

History denies your fantasy interpretation of hard work and producers. You know who is actually producing things? Workers. You know who determines their wages? The employers. The employers are not the Producers, they're just the ones who manage them. Free the employers to do as they will, and we go right back to life in a Dickens novel where workers are paid pennies and the employers get rich.

Bob the Angry Flower has a very keen insight into the consequences of Objectivism. You know what happens when you abandon the workers? You're forced to fend for yourself, all the way back to subsistence living.

Objectivism only works if you're a hermit. If you're actually planning to live in a cooperative society, you're going to have to add to community resources to get things done.

[History land]

I don`t think you know. more people survive cancer in the US than they do in like Great Britian

Aside from the 50 million uninsured people in the US, even those who are insured will rapidly lose it once they're not working due to illness, then they have no job and no healthcare.

The amusing thing about all of this is that the bill before Congress isn't even single-payer healthcare, it's a platform to provide greater choice at better cost.

I don't even know what you people are arguing against.

it`s called a "Public Option" which means the goverment will be in it. Let`s see the goverment is in healthcare it`s called Medicare and Medicade and there is fraud,abuse in that system and it`s broke. Your telling me that a goverment that can`t run Medicade can run more of the healthcare system.

The goverment should not be in healthcare it`s not thier job

[Barringtonia]

You tell me when we had no regulations about the enviorment. How come we have lived longer. Gotten abdunces of energy and we didn`t care about the enviorment. We keep caring about the enviorment we would die. We live longer than the people before the industrial revolution

No one is saying America is an unsuccessful country, it's simply saying it could be better,

Don't you want it to be better?

[History land]

That`s the biggest joke if I heard one.


Let me tell you something. China and India do not give crap about the enviorment and look how well there doing.

Environmentalism is all about economics... do you have any idea how hard it is to run an economy on a dead world?

Enviormentalism is destructive to the human race. besides enviormentalists want us to die to save the earth.

[History land]

That`s the biggest joke if I heard one.


Let me tell you something. China and India do not give crap about the enviorment and look how well there doing.

Environmentalism is all about economics... do you have any idea how hard it is to run an economy on a dead world?

Ok then how is china doing better than the US and they are not caring about the enviorment.

[New Hobabwe]

You tell me when we had no regulations about the enviorment. How come we have lived longer. Gotten abdunces of energy and we didn`t care about the enviorment. We keep caring about the enviorment we would die. We live longer than the people before the industrial revolution

Well, you see, humans need one specific product from 'the environment' that we really really can't go without. It's called oxygen. Kill the environment, kill humanity. It's the same thing.

We live longer today than we did a century ago, because we spent more on medical research, granted, industrialization helped pay for that research.

But like everything else, the economy isn't the be all and end all. The economy is a means to an end, not the end in itself.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I almost feel guilty for continuing, this is too easy.

You still do not understand my point. If a individual works hard and has the abllity to work they will surivie.

Wrong. In this 'utopian' society disparities of wealth will be dramatically increased. This will dramatically impact upon life opportunities. Especially since basic serivces such as education will no longer be free, meaning that the rich will be pre-advantaged in terms of both economic resources and education. Workers can also get ill, get laid off as their business fails through no fault of their own etc. Those who work hard and have ability will not necessarily survive.

Also, very utopian "lets allow a large section of the population to die"...

Plus we need to exploit this planet it has resources we could be using but we are restricted by enviormentalists.

Our exploitation of the planet is already excessive and if you were to ramp that up even further we'd probably be dead in a generation.

We live longer when there is more industrialisation it has been proven. Also a individual worker can negoiate his or her own condtions. Plus the poor would get an education if there were more private schools. More private schools which means they would not be expensive and there would be more choices.

They would not be less expensive than free state-provided schools. In a world full of economies with no regulation, any attempt by the workers to secure themselves basic assurances of rights through unionization would be greeted by a mass movement of industry out of the country, meaning that the workers are actually in conditions of de facto slavery. Oh, wait, no unions allowed. The removal of all right to collective bargaining, that really strengthens their hand in these 'fair' negotiations.

In my utopia. The Rich or as I like to call them The Producers actually worked to get that money. Everyone has the freedom to work for his own self-intrests. Anyone that does not work because they don`t have the abllity and are lazy will starve and die. Why because the Producers have worked. The Failures have failed. Now if you were disabled and couldn`t work there is something called charity. Which is theVoluntarly giving of your own money.

Thanks for restating that you'd let a large section of the population starve and die. Still, I wish you wouldn't try and make yourself look better by the reference to 'charity'. Wouldn't even nearly approach the money required for a basic general social welfare net. Besides, since you and your fellow objectivists seem so keen to state that the poor must be allowed to fail, I don't really see you and your friends putting in much to help.

[Treznor]

I don`t think you know. more people survive cancer in the US than they do in like Great Britian

Aside from the 50 million uninsured people in the US, even those who are insured will rapidly lose it once they're not working due to illness, then they have no job and no healthcare.

The amusing thing about all of this is that the bill before Congress isn't even single-payer healthcare, it's a platform to provide greater choice at better cost.

I don't even know what you people are arguing against.

it`s called a "Public Option" which means the goverment will be in it. Let`s see the goverment is in healthcare it`s called Medicare and Medicade and there is fraud,abuse in that system and it`s broke. Your telling me that a goverment that can`t run Medicade can run more of the healthcare system.

The goverment should not be in healthcare it`s not thier job

The government can't run Medicaid? Funny. Last I knew the government had been running Medicaid for the past forty years. Lots of people have benefited from it. You know what happens to the Social Security and Medicaid programs? Conservatives in government raid their funds for other projects, like military spending.

Doesn't sound to me like the government can't run these programs. It sounds to me like we keep buying the snake oil pitch from conservatives to run those programs. Government is not the problem. Bad government is the problem. We have less bad government when we remember to hold it accountable, just as we have less bad business when we hold it accountable. The catch is that the people have no recourse to hold private business accountable, except with a strong advocate like the government.

[Tubbsalot]

Enviormentalism is destructive to the human race. besides enviormentalists want us to die to save the earth.

Environmentalism is about preserving the human race. We survive by exploiting the environment. If we exploit it too much, it becomes useless to us. Then we have huge demands and no way to meet them. And then we'll be in trouble. It's not about totally annihilating ourselves for Mother Earth, it's about rationing Mother Earth so we don't end up killing ourselves.

Ok then how is china doing better than the US and they are not caring about the enviorment.

Ignoring the environment is cool in the short term... it's lucky for us that most of the more developed countries are able to see a little further ahead than one decade.

[Barringtonia]

Ok then how is china doing better than the US and they are not caring about the enviorment.

They have 300 million people living below the poverty line, they have enormous environmental problems,

Don't listen to the scare stories, it's a very managed economy, are you saying a government managed economy is better?

[History land]

You still do not understand my point. If a individual works hard and has the abllity to work they will surivie. It`s the workers that actually work who get ahead. Plus we need to exploit this planet it has resources we could be using but we are restricted by enviormentalists. We live longer when there is more industrialisation it has been proven. Also a individual worker can negoiate his or her own condtions. Plus the poor would get an education if there were more private schools. More private schools which means they would not be expensive and there would be more choices.

In my utopia. The Rich or as I like to call them The Producers actually worked to get that money. Everyone has the freedom to work for his own self-intrests. Anyone that does not work because they don`t have the abllity and are lazy will starve and die. Why because the Producers have worked. The Failures have failed. Now if you were disabled and couldn`t work there is something called charity. Which is theVoluntarly giving of your own money.

History denies your fantasy interpretation of hard work and producers. You know who is actually producing things? Workers. You know who determines their wages? The employers. The employers are not the Producers, they're just the ones who manage them. Free the employers to do as they will, and we go right back to life in a Dickens novel where workers are paid pennies and the employers get rich.

Bob the Angry Flower has a very keen insight into the consequences of Objectivism. You know what happens when you abandon the workers? You're forced to fend for yourself, all the way back to subsistence living.

Objectivism only works if you're a hermit. If you're actually planning to live in a cooperative society, you're going to have to add to community resources to get things done.

Oh really maybe you should look up something called oh I don`t know the gilded age. Plus with out the emloyers the owners of the company there would be no workers. Plus the rich are rich because they have worked they have made a product sold it and got rich off it.

The rich are the true producers because they made the products the workers are working on. Plus Humans are social creatures we are not a collective. Plus as I keep saying Individual workers can negotiate for thier own wages and condtions. They do not need regulations, unions or minnum wage laws.

[History land]

Enviormentalism is destructive to the human race. besides enviormentalists want us to die to save the earth.

Environmentalism is about preserving the human race. We survive by exploiting the environment. If we exploit it too much, it becomes useless to us. Then we have huge demands and no way to meet them. And then we'll be in trouble. It's not about totally annihilating ourselves for Mother Earth, it's about rationing Mother Earth so we don't end up killing ourselves.



that is a contradiction which means it`s wrong. If enviormentalists want to preserve the human race they need to allow corprations to start drilling offshore and drilling on land for more oil and natrual gas. More products more energy more economic freedom. Enviormentalists want to stifle freedom.

[History land]

Ok then how is china doing better than the US and they are not caring about the enviorment.

They have 300 million people living below the poverty line, they have enormous environmental problems,

Don't listen to the scare stories, it's a very managed economy, are you saying a government managed economy is better?

Ok true there a communist country they have more poverty. I don`t like planned economies. But at least china is doing the smart thing and are trying to get rich by not caring about the enviorment. There looking out for themslves. The US should not care about the world they should care about the US only.

[Tubbsalot]

that is a contradiction which means it`s wrong. If enviormentalists want to preserve the human race they need to allow corprations to start drilling offshore and drilling on land for more oil and natrual gas. More products more energy more economic freedom. Enviormentalists want to stifle freedom.

sigh

[History land]

The goverment should not be in healthcare it`s not thier job[/quote]
The government can't run Medicaid? Funny. Last I knew the government had been running Medicaid for the past forty years. Lots of people have benefited from it. You know what happens to the Social Security and Medicaid programs? Conservatives in government raid their funds for other projects, like military spending.

Doesn't sound to me like the government can't run these programs. It sounds to me like we keep buying the snake oil pitch from conservatives to run those programs. Government is not the problem. Bad government is the problem. We have less bad government when we remember to hold it accountable, just as we have less bad business when we hold it accountable. The catch is that the people have no recourse to hold private business accountable, except with a strong advocate like the government.[/quote]


Then why is medicade broke?