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Question and opinions

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Barringtonia
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Barringtonia » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:43 am

History land wrote:Ok true there a communist country they have more poverty. I don`t like planned economies. But at least china is doing the smart thing and are trying to get rich by not caring about the enviorment. There looking out for themslves. The US should not care about the world they should care about the US only.


A senior Chinese official has told the BBC the country's environmental problems have reached crisis levels.
Pan Yue, deputy head of the State Environmental Protection Administration, said the problems now threatened economic performance.

He said China's industrial development was unsustainable, because its resources could not cope.

Environmental problems like pollution, acid rain and contaminated rivers have only now become a key policy issue.

Mr Pan said that China could no longer afford to follow the West's resources-hungry model of development and it should encourage its citizens to avoid adopting the developed world's consumer habits.


This is not to say that Beijing is to abandon its economic ambitions.

The pace of industrial development over the past 20 years has been unprecedented in human history and Mr Pan acknowledged that there would be political and social problems if China's economic growth rate was not sustained.

But he said that more emphasis should be placed on renewable energy, replacing its coal-fired power stations with greener technology, and penalising factories that cause pollution.


Oh dear, when is reality going to meet with your fantasy land?

While China is certainly still producing pollution, it also certainly recognises the problem. Corruption is an inhibitor on government attempts to clean its act.

Yet it recognises that it's not sustainable.
Last edited by Barringtonia on Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
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History land
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby History land » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:43 am

Listen I will not stop. I will still speak out you can speak out aginst me in your opinions. But I have my opinions and I will not stop speaking them. You can keep going with your Ideas but dammit I will keep fighting till the end
The Greater Americanian Air Force certainly had it's ass kicked
-Greater Americania during the war in Comaack

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=18687

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Treznor
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Treznor » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:44 am

History land wrote:
Treznor wrote:
History land wrote:You still do not understand my point. If a individual works hard and has the abllity to work they will surivie. It`s the workers that actually work who get ahead. Plus we need to exploit this planet it has resources we could be using but we are restricted by enviormentalists. We live longer when there is more industrialisation it has been proven. Also a individual worker can negoiate his or her own condtions. Plus the poor would get an education if there were more private schools. More private schools which means they would not be expensive and there would be more choices.

In my utopia. The Rich or as I like to call them The Producers actually worked to get that money. Everyone has the freedom to work for his own self-intrests. Anyone that does not work because they don`t have the abllity and are lazy will starve and die. Why because the Producers have worked. The Failures have failed. Now if you were disabled and couldn`t work there is something called charity. Which is theVoluntarly giving of your own money.

History denies your fantasy interpretation of hard work and producers. You know who is actually producing things? Workers. You know who determines their wages? The employers. The employers are not the Producers, they're just the ones who manage them. Free the employers to do as they will, and we go right back to life in a Dickens novel where workers are paid pennies and the employers get rich.

Bob the Angry Flower has a very keen insight into the consequences of Objectivism. You know what happens when you abandon the workers? You're forced to fend for yourself, all the way back to subsistence living.

Objectivism only works if you're a hermit. If you're actually planning to live in a cooperative society, you're going to have to add to community resources to get things done.


Oh really maybe you should look up something called oh I don`t know the gilded age. Plus with out the emloyers the owners of the company there would be no workers. Plus the rich are rich because they have worked they have made a product sold it and got rich off it.

I did. Few restrictions, worker exploitation, everybody poor except the owners who got richer and richer, and gamed the system until everything collapsed.

Do you know why governments institute regulations? Because somebody screws up, and continues to screw up until people demand a solution. Then the government steps in to fix what no one else was willing to address.

The Gilded Age was an era of unprecedented productivity and prosperity -- for the rich. For everyone else, it was sweat factories, poverty and misery. That's not a world I care to live in.

History land wrote:The rich are the true producers because they made the products the workers are working on. Plus Humans are social creatures we are not a collective. Plus as I keep saying Individual workers can negotiate for thier own wages and condtions. They do not need regulations, unions or minnum wage laws.

Bullshit. The rich don't make jack. They pay people to make things, and they pay as little as possible. Most of the rich in our nation are rich because their parents are rich. The old "rags to riches" fable is the exception, not the rule. Far more people are becoming poorer, not richer. When 99% of the wealth is held by 1% of the population, it becomes increasingly more difficult to join that 1%.

I promise you, unless you're already in that 1%, you're not going to get there in the next thirty or forty years.

I'm part of an industry that vehemently rejects the notions of unions. We're expected to negotiate as individuals for our pay. Our pay has dropped 75% in the last ten years. It isn't because we're not negotiating, it's because we have no way to negotiate from a position of strength. The only way we can do that is to come together to bargain collectively, but that would require us to cooperate in a manner that suggests a union. Once again, Objectivism fails here.

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Tubbsalot
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Tubbsalot » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:45 am

History land wrote:Listen I will not stop. I will still speak out you can speak out aginst me in your opinions. But I have my opinions and I will not stop speaking them. You can keep going with your Ideas but dammit I will keep fighting till the end

Please, please don't do this. Why on earth would you think it was a good idea to "fight till the end" against facts and reason? You're trying to make it sound glamorous, but trust me, it's not.
"Twats love flags." - Yootopia

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History land
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby History land » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:45 am

Barringtonia wrote:
History land wrote:Ok true there a communist country they have more poverty. I don`t like planned economies. But at least china is doing the smart thing and are trying to get rich by not caring about the enviorment. There looking out for themslves. The US should not care about the world they should care about the US only.


A senior Chinese official has told the BBC the country's environmental problems have reached crisis levels.
Pan Yue, deputy head of the State Environmental Protection Administration, said the problems now threatened economic performance.

He said China's industrial development was unsustainable, because its resources could not cope.

Environmental problems like pollution, acid rain and contaminated rivers have only now become a key policy issue.

Mr Pan said that China could no longer afford to follow the West's resources-hungry model of development and it should encourage its citizens to avoid adopting the developed world's consumer habits.


Oh dear, when is reality going to meet with your fantasy land?

While China is certainly still producing pollution, it also certainly recognises the problem. Corruption is an inhibitor on government attempts to clean its act.



It allready had at least my ideas aren`t destructive your ideas are have you heard of a country called. The soviet Union or cuba or north korea
The Greater Americanian Air Force certainly had it's ass kicked
-Greater Americania during the war in Comaack

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=18687

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Barringtonia
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Barringtonia » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:45 am

History land wrote:Listen I will not stop. I will still speak out you can speak out aginst me in your opinions. But I have my opinions and I will not stop speaking them. You can keep going with your Ideas but dammit I will keep fighting till the end


That's all you have, opinions, opinions that do not match reality.
Last edited by Barringtonia on Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world



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Dumb Ideologies
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:46 am

History land wrote:Listen I will not stop. I will still speak out you can speak out aginst me in your opinions. But I have my opinions and I will not stop speaking them. You can keep going with your Ideas but dammit I will keep fighting till the end


We haven't requested that you stop. In fact, its kinda an enjoyable break for all of us to take part in a debate where the points of the opponent are so badly made and easy to refute. Carry on, please. Oh, are you aware you just admitted you are articulating opinions and not objective truth?
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
★彡 Professional pessimist. Reactionary socialist and gamer liberationist. Coffee addict. Fun at parties 彡★
Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

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History land
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby History land » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:48 am

Tubbsalot wrote:
History land wrote:Listen I will not stop. I will still speak out you can speak out aginst me in your opinions. But I have my opinions and I will not stop speaking them. You can keep going with your Ideas but dammit I will keep fighting till the end

Please, please don't do this. Why on earth would you think it was a good idea to "fight till the end" against facts and reason? You're trying to make it sound glamorous, but trust me, it's not.



I am the only one with reason here. I am the only one that fights for full freedoms. You wish to stifle it with your regulations on the free market. I will keep fighting and all objectivists will keep fighting. I may be the only objectivist on nation states. But so what I will continue to fight on Howard Roark fought a entire society he didn`t give up. John Galt and the strikers fought aginst the United States they didn`t give up.

I will never give up I embrace reason because you are one word you are all one words that I can describe you all.
The Greater Americanian Air Force certainly had it's ass kicked
-Greater Americania during the war in Comaack

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=18687

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History land
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby History land » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:48 am

Barringtonia wrote:
History land wrote:Listen I will not stop. I will still speak out you can speak out aginst me in your opinions. But I have my opinions and I will not stop speaking them. You can keep going with your Ideas but dammit I will keep fighting till the end


That's all you have, opinions, opinions that do not match reality.


Actually I do it`s called the gilded age
The Greater Americanian Air Force certainly had it's ass kicked
-Greater Americania during the war in Comaack

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=18687

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History land
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby History land » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:51 am

Why I haven`t I just said it. I finally figured it out what you all are
The Greater Americanian Air Force certainly had it's ass kicked
-Greater Americania during the war in Comaack

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=18687

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Tubbsalot
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Tubbsalot » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:51 am

History land wrote:I am the only one with reason here. I am the only one that fights for full freedoms. You wish to stifle it with your regulations on the free market. I will keep fighting and all objectivists will keep fighting. I may be the only objectivist on nation states. But so what I will continue to fight on Howard Roark fought a entire society he didn`t give up. John Galt and the strikers fought aginst the United States they didn`t give up.

I will never give up I embrace reason because you are one word you are all one words that I can describe you all.

None of this even makes sense to me. How can you claim you're being rational when nobody here agrees with you? When you're the only one with a certain idea, that generally means your idea is incredibly dodgy, and when you are totally unable to convince anybody else, it's time to rethink things. You can't even point to real-world examples of free capitalism working... every time you've tried, people have pointed out that everything went wrong at the time.

The only reason you have these opinions is because you refuse to think about anything people are telling you.
"Twats love flags." - Yootopia

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Barringtonia
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Barringtonia » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:51 am

History land wrote:Why I haven`t I just said it. I finally figured it out what you all are


COMMUNISTS!

YAY!

:clap:
I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world



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Dumb Ideologies
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:52 am

History land wrote:
Tubbsalot wrote:
History land wrote:Listen I will not stop. I will still speak out you can speak out aginst me in your opinions. But I have my opinions and I will not stop speaking them. You can keep going with your Ideas but dammit I will keep fighting till the end

Please, please don't do this. Why on earth would you think it was a good idea to "fight till the end" against facts and reason? You're trying to make it sound glamorous, but trust me, it's not.



I am the only one with reason here. I am the only one that fights for full freedoms. You wish to stifle it with your regulations on the free market. I will keep fighting and all objectivists will keep fighting. I may be the only objectivist on nation states. But so what I will continue to fight on Howard Roark fought a entire society he didn`t give up. John Galt and the strikers fought aginst the United States they didn`t give up.

I will never give up I embrace reason because you are one word you are all one words that I can describe you all.


Plenty of evidence has been provided here that unrestrained free markets would worsen the standard of living for the majority of the population. However, you seem to be running around with your fingers in your ears. Thats not very rational, is it?

History land wrote:Why I haven`t I just said it. I finally figured it out what you all are


Considerably more well-informed on political matters than yourself?
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
★彡 Professional pessimist. Reactionary socialist and gamer liberationist. Coffee addict. Fun at parties 彡★
Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

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Treznor
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Treznor » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:53 am

History land wrote:Listen I will not stop. I will still speak out you can speak out aginst me in your opinions. But I have my opinions and I will not stop speaking them. You can keep going with your Ideas but dammit I will keep fighting till the end

I'm not going to stop until you do. You're entitled to your opinion, and you're even free to fight for them. I'm also free to challenge them with my opinions. So we're at an impass: you can't make an argument to justify your opinions, but you're not going to give them up, either. We all understand this, and we'll all favor you with our opinions so long as you persist.

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

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History land
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby History land » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:54 am

I just get it now.

You are all Doubters. you keep doubting that the men of the mind like the inventor and the industrialists can actually make this a good society. You are all corrupted by the ideas of enviormentalists and collectivists.

you continue to doubt free market captialism. I can`t belive I finally figuried it out why you are all agianst me. I am the lone man of reason
The Greater Americanian Air Force certainly had it's ass kicked
-Greater Americania during the war in Comaack

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=18687

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Tekania
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Tekania » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:54 am

History land wrote:It`s not true. Listen Humanity is rational. But individual`s choose to be rational or irrational.

How can you have freedom as long as your are forced to pay taxes to go into welfare. How can you have freedom when the goverments restricts you with regulations. How can you have freedom when the goverment gets in and begians monopolies like the public school system.


The Profit (pun intended) of God speaketh, heareth his mighty word... For he shall smiteth the unbelievers of Ayn Rand with boils and government.
Such heroic nonsense!

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Tubbsalot
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Tubbsalot » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:55 am

History land wrote:I just get it now.

You are all Doubters. you keep doubting that the men of the mind like the inventor and the industrialists can actually make this a good society. You are all corrupted by the ideas of enviormentalists and collectivists.

you continue to doubt free market captialism. I can`t belive I finally figuried it out why you are all agianst me. I am the lone man of reason

Christ, this is a stupid post.

Whatever, then, don't bother listening to anyone else. As if they'd have anything to tell you - you already know everything!

I think I've wasted enough time on people who aren't listening, today...
"Twats love flags." - Yootopia

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Dumb Ideologies
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:55 am

History land wrote:I just get it now.

You are all Doubters. you keep doubting that the men of the mind like the inventor and the industrialists can actually make this a good society. You are all corrupted by the ideas of enviormentalists and collectivists.

you continue to doubt free market captialism. I can`t belive I finally figuried it out why you are all agianst me. I am the lone man of reason


No, we disagree fundamentally that the hellhole you describe is anything faintly resembling a 'good society'.

If you can't understand our arguments, maybe you might want to develop your skills of reasoning so you can get up to our level?
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
★彡 Professional pessimist. Reactionary socialist and gamer liberationist. Coffee addict. Fun at parties 彡★
Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

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History land
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby History land » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:55 am

The free market has never collasped
The Greater Americanian Air Force certainly had it's ass kicked
-Greater Americania during the war in Comaack

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=18687

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Ifreann
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Ifreann » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:56 am

History land wrote:I just get it now.

You are all Doubters. you keep doubting that the men of the mind like the inventor and the industrialists can actually make this a good society. You are all corrupted by the ideas of enviormentalists and collectivists.

you continue to doubt free market captialism. I can`t belive I finally figuried it out why you are all agianst me. I am the lone man of reason

When you start to think that you're the only sane man on Earth, you're probably insane.
He/Him

beating the devil
we never run from the devil
we never summon the devil
we never hide from from the devil
we never

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History land
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby History land » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:56 am

The great depression was caused by goverment interferance aka The Federal Reserve
The Greater Americanian Air Force certainly had it's ass kicked
-Greater Americania during the war in Comaack

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=18687

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Tekania
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Founded: May 26, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: Question and opinions

Postby Tekania » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:57 am

History land wrote:I just get it now.

You are all Doubters. you keep doubting that the men of the mind like the inventor and the industrialists can actually make this a good society. You are all corrupted by the ideas of enviormentalists and collectivists.

you continue to doubt free market captialism. I can`t belive I finally figuried it out why you are all agianst me. I am the lone man of reason


Now, THIS one is perfect... We're doubters now.... Damn, change a couple words and he could be a fire-and-brimstone hell-fire preacher.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.... It's most likely a duck...

Sorry History Land, not interested in your religion.
Last edited by Tekania on Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Such heroic nonsense!

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History land
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby History land » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:57 am

I am the sane one the only thing that made me look insane is because I never figtured it out.
The Greater Americanian Air Force certainly had it's ass kicked
-Greater Americania during the war in Comaack

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=18687

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Dumb Ideologies
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:57 am

History land wrote:The great depression was caused by goverment interferance aka The Federal Reserve


Of course it was, darling. And squirrels grow from badger poop.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
★彡 Professional pessimist. Reactionary socialist and gamer liberationist. Coffee addict. Fun at parties 彡★
Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

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Treznor
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Re: Question and opinions

Postby Treznor » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:58 am

History land wrote:The great depression was caused by goverment interferance aka The Federal Reserve

I call bullshit. The Great Depression was caused by private investors buying stocks on margin, then being unable to pay when the stocks dropped.

Juggling plates is a great trick, provided you can catch them all on the way down.

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