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United Democratic Nations

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Dilange
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Founded: Mar 09, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Dilange » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:40 am

Gdstark wrote:One parting thought...if anyone supports the UDN website proposal, let me know and I can add your name to the petition on the last page. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

gary
http://www.UnitedDemocraticNations.org


As for my parting shot, I will say one last thing....who would run the UDN anyways sicne its an American ideal? Maybe America or Britain or France.....wait this sounds liek the UN all over again.

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Gdstark
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Founded: Aug 26, 2011
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Postby Gdstark » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:46 pm

Dilange wrote:
Gdstark wrote:One parting thought...if anyone supports the UDN website proposal, let me know and I can add your name to the petition on the last page. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

gary
http://www.UnitedDemocraticNations.org


As for my parting shot, I will say one last thing....who would run the UDN anyways sicne its an American ideal? Maybe America or Britain or France.....wait this sounds liek the UN all over again.


I don't recall describing the UDN concept as being "run" by any one nation. Where did you get that idea? To the contrary I describe the UDN as not even having a permanent location, but instead rotating through member nations. And since I also describe the UDN as being of a MUCH more limited size, that wouldn't be such a hard move.

I really think you're confusing the UDN with the UN. One doesn't work and one is just a proposal.

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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:47 pm

Hippostania wrote:Should undemocratic nations be kicked out of the UN? What is your opinion on this hypothetical ''UDN''?

...we already did it. It's called the EU. ;)
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New Manvir
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Postby New Manvir » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:00 pm

Can we build a treehouse and put up a sign saying "NO FASHISTS ALLOUD"?
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Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy. "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these. There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them. They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.

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Volnotova
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Founded: Nov 08, 2010
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Postby Volnotova » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:37 pm

Hippostania wrote:After reading these two article, I began thinking. Would it be possible to reform the UN into ''UDN'', or United Democratic Nations, or alternatively, make all democratic nations leave the UN and join the UDN instead? The member state map of the UDN would probably look like this.
Basically, the point is that UN is extremely inefficient because about half of the its member states are dictatorships. They do not respect Western values such as democracy, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. They might be semi-democratic oligarchies like Russia, pseudo-Communist authoritarian dictatorships like China or just literally insane hellholes like North Korea. It is incredibly difficult to make any decisions when half of the world's nation don't give a damn about things that matter to an average Westerner.

So, what do you think? Should undemocratic nations be kicked out of the UN? What is your opinion on this hypothetical ''UDN''?


What democratic nations?

There are none.

And neither are half of its member states dictatorships, just because they are a little more authoritarian, despotic and tyranical then their western counterparts does not make them dictatorships.

An western values such as democracy? Freedom of speech and "Freedom of Assembly"? :rofl:

Also, every country in the world is an oligarchy. ;)
Or are you going to claim that we are all free, unrestrained, that the parliaments of western countries(Constisting mostly of just a few hundred people) perfectly represent the wishes, feelings, interests, lifes and social, economic, political, religious and ethnic backgrounds of hundreds of millions of people? And that we merely "consent' to all the taxation and laws?

;)

And China is not communist, it is state capitalist; communism is stateless and classless.

That said, does the average westerner care about the average Asian or African?

This entire "UDN" idea is just one big ass-licking fest for the ruling and parasitic political elite, another facade that attempts at giving the ruling oligarchs a little more legitimacy.
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Gdstark
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Founded: Aug 26, 2011
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Postby Gdstark » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:17 pm

Volnotova wrote:What democratic nations?

There are none.

If you only think in black & white you could reach that conclusion, but turning the discussion into one of pure semantics simply avoids the real issues.

And neither are half of its member states dictatorships, just because they are a little more authoritarian, despotic and tyranical then their western counterparts does not make them dictatorships.

An western values such as democracy? Freedom of speech and "Freedom of Assembly"? :rofl:

Also, every country in the world is an oligarchy. ;)
Or are you going to claim that we are all free, unrestrained, that the parliaments of western countries(Constisting mostly of just a few hundred people) perfectly represent the wishes, feelings, interests, lifes and social, economic, political, religious and ethnic backgrounds of hundreds of millions of people? And that we merely "consent' to all the taxation and laws?

;)

And China is not communist, it is state capitalist; communism is stateless and classless.

That said, does the average westerner care about the average Asian or African?

This entire "UDN" idea is just one big ass-licking fest for the ruling and parasitic political elite, another facade that attempts at giving the ruling oligarchs a little more legitimacy.

So just to clarify, are you happy with the UN as-is? Or do you feel that political discussions at the global level simply have no value?

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Volnotova
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Founded: Nov 08, 2010
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Postby Volnotova » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:34 pm

Gdstark wrote:If you only think in black & white you could reach that conclusion, but turning the discussion into one of pure semantics simply avoids the real issues.


Downplaying the value of semantics turns "discussions" or any other form of verbal "interaction" into pure gibberish.

So just to clarify, are you happy with the UN as-is? Or do you feel that political discussions at the global level simply have no value?


No.

And yes, I do feel political discussions at a global level have an inherent value but to me the UN is but a joke.
A very exclusive and exceptional ice crystal.

A surrealistic alien entity stretched thin across the many membranes of the multiverse.
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:You are the most lawful neutral person I have ever witnessed.


Polruan wrote:It's like Humphrey Applebee wrote a chapter of the Talmud in here.

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Gdstark
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Founded: Aug 26, 2011
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Postby Gdstark » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:43 pm

Volnotova wrote:
Gdstark wrote:If you only think in black & white you could reach that conclusion, but turning the discussion into one of pure semantics simply avoids the real issues.


Downplaying the value of semantics turns "discussions" or any other form of verbal "interaction" into pure gibberish.

Clearly some nations are more democratic than others. Democracy is a sliding scale, not a binary value, so saying there are no democracies is a pointless observation. Specifically, gibberish.


So just to clarify, are you happy with the UN as-is? Or do you feel that political discussions at the global level simply have no value?

No.

And yes, I do feel political discussions at a global level have an inherent value but to me the UN is but a joke.

With that we can agree. Not democratic enough for my taste.

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Anitgrum
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Founded: Aug 03, 2011
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Postby Anitgrum » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:51 pm

Risottia wrote:
Hippostania wrote:Should undemocratic nations be kicked out of the UN? What is your opinion on this hypothetical ''UDN''?

...we already did it. It's called the EU. ;)


Yeah last time I checked not all democracies were in Europe . ;)

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Volnotova
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Founded: Nov 08, 2010
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Postby Volnotova » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:12 pm

Gdstark wrote:Clearly some nations are more democratic than others. Democracy is a sliding scale, not a binary value, so saying there are no democracies is a pointless observation. Specifically, gibberish.


That is different.

The United States isn't democratic, neither is North Korea.

However, certain segments of a country can be considered democratic; if at all.

Then you can make statistics about how a country is democratic in areas that others are not.

Nevertheless, talking about any country as "democratic' is incorrect. To explain: The statement "A, B and C are true" may be false, if B is false then the whole statement is false; however, individual segments may be true.
A very exclusive and exceptional ice crystal.

A surrealistic alien entity stretched thin across the many membranes of the multiverse.
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:You are the most lawful neutral person I have ever witnessed.


Polruan wrote:It's like Humphrey Applebee wrote a chapter of the Talmud in here.

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Gdstark
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Founded: Aug 26, 2011
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Postby Gdstark » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:32 pm

Volnotova wrote:
Gdstark wrote:Clearly some nations are more democratic than others. Democracy is a sliding scale, not a binary value, so saying there are no democracies is a pointless observation. Specifically, gibberish.


That is different.

The United States isn't democratic, neither is North Korea.

However, certain segments of a country can be considered democratic; if at all.

Then you can make statistics about how a country is democratic in areas that others are not.

Now we're on track.


Nevertheless, talking about any country as "democratic' is incorrect. To explain: The statement "A, B and C are true" may be false, if B is false then the whole statement is false; however, individual segments may be true.

...and now we're back in the weeds.

To the subject at hand, how would you improve the UN? Or the UDN concept?
Last edited by Gdstark on Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Distruzio
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Founded: Feb 28, 2011
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Postby Distruzio » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:31 am

Gdstark wrote:
Volnotova wrote:
That is different.

The United States isn't democratic, neither is North Korea.

However, certain segments of a country can be considered democratic; if at all.

Then you can make statistics about how a country is democratic in areas that others are not.

Now we're on track.


Nevertheless, talking about any country as "democratic' is incorrect. To explain: The statement "A, B and C are true" may be false, if B is false then the whole statement is false; however, individual segments may be true.

...and now we're back in the weeds.

To the subject at hand, how would you improve the UN? Or the UDN concept?


He'd tell you to write it out on toilet paper.
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Risottia
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Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Risottia » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:37 am

Anitgrum wrote:
Risottia wrote:...we already did it. It's called the EU. ;)


Yeah last time I checked not all democracies were in Europe . ;)


Just wait. They will be assimilated.
Yes, of course we're Borgs. We've got Sweden after all!
Last edited by Risottia on Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hypparchia
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Founded: Dec 11, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Hypparchia » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:53 am

Some people won't learn...

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Gdstark
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Founded: Aug 26, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Gdstark » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:34 pm

Distruzio wrote:He'd tell you to write it out on toilet paper.


Write what on toilet paper?

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Distruzio
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Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Distruzio » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:42 pm

Gdstark wrote:
Distruzio wrote:He'd tell you to write it out on toilet paper.


Write what on toilet paper?


Your ideas on the UDN. Vol doesn't seem to approve.
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Anitgrum
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Founded: Aug 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Anitgrum » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:22 pm

Risottia wrote:
Anitgrum wrote:
Yeah last time I checked not all democracies were in Europe . ;)


Just wait. They will be assimilated.
Yes, of course we're Borgs. We've got Sweden after all!


The Eurocollective is seeming to have trouble fully assimilating Britain.

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Great Agram
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Founded: May 05, 2011
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Postby Great Agram » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:28 pm

Anitgrum wrote:
Risottia wrote:
Just wait. They will be assimilated.
Yes, of course we're Borgs. We've got Sweden after all!


The Eurocollective is seeming to have trouble fully assimilating Britain.

britain has the open door to leave the EU, I am wondeing what is doig in the eu because it is not Europe and second the founders of the EU didnt predict to see britain within the Eu (De gaulle said:"europe from the antlantic to Ural")

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