The death penalty

[Alyakia]

They get lots of attention. They're also a lot harder to prevent. You can't prevent car accidents and TB by simply making/repeaing one law like you could to end the death penalty. Do you have ANY fucking idea what they would involve?

How many times do we need to tell you that people can multitask?

yeah but why would you want to repeal it? Read Nilf's Justice system proposal, he has some good ideas for getting the cost down and making it fairer.

For all the reasons already stated.

Oh, trust me, I am. Making people pay for justice is pretty cool!

[Spetznaz Assault Teams]

I think we have forgotten something in this argument

Vengeance: Stems from a love of Justice and a desire to see wrongs put right
Revenge: Is unethical, immoral, and self serving

In the law, the death penalty is known as vengeance. Therefore, it is justified and worth keeping.

[Greater Nilfgaard]

yeah but why would you want to repeal it? Read Nilf's Justice system proposal, he has some good ideas for getting the cost down and making it fairer.

For all the reasons already stated.

Oh, trust me, I am. Making people pay for justice is pretty cool!

why thank you

[Geniasis]

I think we have forgotten something in this argument

Vengeance: Stems from a love of Justice and a desire to see wrongs put right
Revenge: Is unethical, immoral, and self serving

In the law, the death penalty is known as vengeance. Therefore, it is justified and worth keeping.

Revenge and vengeance are the same thing. Other words include: retribution, retaliation, payback, etc.

[Voljar]

I think we have forgotten something in this argument

Vengeance: Stems from a love of Justice and a desire to see wrongs put right
Revenge: Is unethical, immoral, and self serving

In the law, the death penalty is known as vengeance. Therefore, it is justified and worth keeping.

Revenge and vengeance are the same thing. Other words include: retribution, retaliation, payback, etc.

Justice no doubt has it's roots in the human desire for revenge. However, it is pursued objectively by the courts rather than emotionally by the victim.

[Natty Narwhal]

I don't have an opinion, really.
~Amoral

[Free Peoples 2]

Some of the responses in this thread are absurd. There isn't significant evidence to suggest that capital punishment deters crime whatsoever. It's also more expensive than life imprisonment. You could make the argument that you could make it cheaper by removing appeals, however then even more innocent people will be executed. Also, define what it means to be provable beyond a shadow of a doubt. There's a grey area that will undoubtedly exist if we start executing people when we're "sure" they're guilty. There really isn't a logical reason to support capital punishment outside of revenge. Also, what right to you have to put some unfortunate innocent people to death when capital punishment does not deter crime. What if you have a criminal who has nothing left to live for and doesn't care about dying? Do you think that they'd prefer to be put to death or be locked up for life in prison?

[Alyakia]

I looked through your proposals!

(DNA

Is always 100% perfect and works just like it does in CSI!

, video footage, etc)

Unalterable. No space for mistaken identity. But I guess it's sorta reliable.

1st degree rape of 1 minor (under 18): 25 years in prison, hard labor.
1st degree rape of an adult (over 18): 20 years in prison (no hard labor)

What? Why hard labour? What does this hard labour entail? Why does a person who rapes a child get hard labour and ones who rapes an adult does not? Are adult rape victims somehow less important to you? What about statutory rape? Like fucking a 17 year old? Do they get hard labour as well?

Maybe we should put all the hard labour prisoners in central camps to make things easier while we force them to work. We could call them Coolags to make it better when we're trying to pass the law.

1st degree rape of 2-5 minors: 50 years in prison, hard labor, castration (depending on particular case; 1 appeal against castration is allowed)
1st degree rape of 2-5 adults: 40 years in prison, hard labor

The fact you want the state to literally mutilate people is pretty scary. Why do only child rapists get castrated? Why does anyone get castrated? Are you aware that there are female child rapists? What are you going to do to them?

1st degree rape of 5+ minors: Execution (1 appeal allowed)
1st degree rape of 5-10 adults: Life in Prison, Hard Labor, castration (1 appeal allowed)
1st degree rape of 10+ adults: Execution (1 appeal allowed)

1 appeal? Thank god all aquittals and dismissals happen on the first appeal.

Again, adult rape victims are somehow less important to you, or raping an adult is more acceptable.

Preferred method of execution for sexual crimes: One shot to the back of the head, following administration of a general Anesthetic. Organ donation encouraged (family not billed for expenses if form filled out).

You're alright with cutting off peoples balls in order to satisfy your little revenge fantasies, but you aren't alright with taking away organs that people will never use again to save possibly tens/hundreds of thousands of lives? Why not just take them?

Also, forcing families who may be poor to pay then giving them a way out by making it free if they let you ravage around in their sons/daughters/etc. body? Isn't that just a little bit extortionate?

1st Degree Murder of Minor: Life in Prison, hard labor
1st degree murder of adult: 20 years - Life, hard labor
1st degree murder of police officer: Execution (1 appeal)
1st degree murder of a state official: Execution (1 appeal)
1st degree murder of pregnant female: Execution (1 appeal)
Multiple Murder (2+ murders): Execution (1 appeal)

Are you aware of all the people that get charged for murder after they kill a police officer who barges into their home without announcing themselves or knocking? Why is the innocent man who is murdered on his way to work less important to you than an armed and armoured man with power over people?

Are minors killing other minors getting 20 years or life?

Multiple Murders of profoundly sadistic nature: 20 years of solitary confinement, followed by execution (1 appeal)

What purpose does this serve except for torture? No hard labour? Why are you wasting the taxpayers money and not making it back?

For Drug Trafficking Crimes: Lethal Injection is preferred method. Organ Donation is encouraged (Family won't be billed if condemned fills our the form)

Why lethal injection? Why are you wasting tax payers money on scum who should just be shot in the back of the head?

Treason: 10 years hard labor- Execution (varies widely depending on crime)(1 appeal)
Sedition: 15 years hard labor- Execution (again, varies widely)(1 appeal)
Desertion: Life Hard Labor (no appeal)
Defection (switching sides during time of war): Execution (no appeal)

It would be a shame if you got conscripted, sent to fight in a war in a shithole, ordered to commit a war crime, refused, desert and spend the rest of your life mining rocks.

For political crimes: execution is carried about by firing squad, no organ donation is considered due to the unpredictable nature of bodily harm. Family is, unless otherwise stated, always responsible for the bill.

Ahahahhahahahahaha, you actually said political crimes.

All executions, unless otherwise states, are by default to be carried out within 2 weeks of the verdict. Appeals are to be registered no later than 1 week after the verdict, and can take no longer than 1 month. The cost of appeals are to be paid for by the convicted party if possible. If the convicted party is unable to pay for the appeal (due to cost), the courts will sponsor 1 appeal. For fairness, only one appeal is allowed, regardless of the convicted parties' ability to pay for more.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocen ... -death-row

Just gonna post this again. Look at the "years between".

You want the right to defend yourself before being killed? Here's your bill, bub. You want justice, you gotta pay for it.

Which relative pays? Why are you punishing the families of the condemned, who are innocents, for the crimes of another? Why are you even charging anyone but yourself? You're the one that's so desperate to do it. What if their only living relative is the father they haven't talked to in 10 years? Is he getting a sudden visit? Or a sister they haven't talked to in 15? What if their only living relative is their mother who they tried to murder after they murdered their father and brother?

After making someone work in what is essentially slavery for 25 years, what do you think they're going to do when they get out? 50 years? I'm not even going to start on how over the top these sentences are. Did you put any thought into what would happen after they got out?

[Chazicaria]

Yes. Very much so, actually.

Some say it costs money, but there's a simple fix to that: instead of using expensive chemicals, you just use .45 bullet in the head. All rapists, child molesters, and murderers would have to die in my ideal system.

[Alyakia]

Yes. Very much so, actually.

Some say it costs money, but there's a simple fix to that: instead of using expensive chemicals, you just use .45 bullet in the head. All rapists, child molesters, and murderers would have to die in my ideal system.

70% of the cost is incurred in the trial phase.

[Geniasis]

Revenge and vengeance are the same thing. Other words include: retribution, retaliation, payback, etc.

Justice no doubt has it's roots in the human desire for revenge. However, it is pursued objectively by the courts rather than emotionally by the victim.

Certainly that could be the case. It does not, however, mean that the words "vengeance" and "revenge" aren't the same exact thing.

[Chazicaria]

Yes. Very much so, actually.

Some say it costs money, but there's a simple fix to that: instead of using expensive chemicals, you just use .45 bullet in the head. All rapists, child molesters, and murderers would have to die in my ideal system.

70% of the cost is incurred in the trial phase.

Trials occur no matter what. Of course, you could shorten trials by removing all the BS and not taking so many breaks.

[Alyakia]

70% of the cost is incurred in the trial phase.

Trials occur no matter what. Of course, you could shorten trials by removing all the BS and not taking so many breaks.

Yes, they do. They also happen to be more expensive for death penalty cases, even without appeals.

BS like?

[Chazicaria]

Trials occur no matter what. Of course, you could shorten trials by removing all the BS and not taking so many breaks.

Yes, they do. They also happen to be more expensive for death penalty cases, even without appeals.

BS like?

Like breaks.

[Alyakia]

Yes, they do. They also happen to be more expensive for death penalty cases, even without appeals.

BS like?

Like breaks.

And exactly how much money do you think getting of breaks will save?

[UCUMAY]

Yes and it really shouldn't be...

How do you suggest the prohibitive cost be remedied?

Yes...

[Keronians]

How do you suggest the prohibitive cost be remedied?

Yes...

He asked "how".

[UCUMAY]

I have faith in the modern technology. DNA makes a big difference compared to the older cases.

DNA isn't infallible.

More often than not, it doesn't come up with evidence verses being wrong.

[Keronians]

DNA isn't infallible.

More often than not, it doesn't come up with evidence verses being wrong.

It isn't always available, and sometimes comes after the trial has been done.

And is sometimes misleading.

[UCUMAY]

Yes...

He asked "how".

My bad... I'm not sure.

[Greater Nilfgaard]

What? Why hard labour? What does this hard labour entail? Why does a person who rapes a child get hard labour and ones who rapes an adult does not? Are adult rape victims somehow less important to you? What about statutory rape? Like fucking a 17 year old? Do they get hard labour as well?

The person guilty of adult rape is still getting severely punished. It's not that it's less important, I just personally find child rape particularly disgusting. I always thought that was a common held opinion.

Maybe we should put all the hard labour prisoners in central camps to make things easier while we force them to work. We could call them Coolags to make it better when we're trying to pass the law.

I find chain gangs more efficient than one central camp, personally, but thats just my opinion. A robust justice system would likely have both options.

The fact you want the state to literally mutilate people is pretty scary. Why do only child rapists get castrated? Why does anyone get castrated? Are you aware that there are female child rapists? What are you going to do to them?

Chemical Castration, bro, chemical castration. No mutilation required. Plus it's reversible (I think).

You're alright with cutting off peoples balls in order to satisfy your little revenge fantasies, but you aren't alright with taking away organs that people will never use again to save possibly tens/hundreds of thousands of lives? Why not just take them?


Also, forcing families who may be poor to pay then giving them a way out by making it free if they let you ravage around in their sons/daughters/etc. body? Isn't that just a little bit extortionate?

We must respect the prisoner's choice on what happens to their own body. The best thing to do is offer incentives, exactly as I proposed.

As for the extortion part, not really, I prefer the term 'incentive'. Since, as you mentioned, they don't really have much to lose by letting the state have organs that will never be used again anyway.

Are you aware of all the people that get charged for murder after they kill a police officer who barges into their home without announcing themselves or knocking? Why is the innocent man who is murdered on his way to work less important to you than an armed and armoured man with power over people?

Murder is premeditated. Thus killing a police man in self defense who barges into your home would not be considered murder but manslaughter. This is why there are judges and juries, they will lighten the sentence accordingly.

After making someone work in what is essentially slavery for 25 years, what do you think they're going to do when they get out? 50 years? I'm not even going to start on how over the top these sentences are. Did you put any thought into what would happen after they got out?

After they get out, they will be so traumatized by what happened that they will see that criminal actions have extreme costs. Crime Doesn't Pay! It makes you a slave! Thus they will hopefully live peacefully for the rest of their lives.

[Alyakia]

So, what are the chain gangs/gulagers actually doing?

Chemical Castration, bro, chemical castration. No mutilation required. Plus it's reversible (I think).

We must respect the prisoner's choice on what happens to their own body.

These quotes don't seem to fit well together. Does the prisoners choice not matter once they commit a certain crime?

It's generally considered reversible, but can have permanent side effects.

Murder is premeditated. Thus killing a police man in self defense who barges into your home would not be considered murder but manslaughter. This is why there are judges and juries, they will lighten the sentence accordingly.

There have been several cases where people have been charged with murder for killing police officers barging into their homes.

After they get out, they will be so traumatized by what happened that they will see that criminal actions have extreme costs. Crime Doesn't Pay! It makes you a slave! Thus they will hopefully live peacefully for the rest of their lives.

Traumatizing people is generally considered a bad thing. As is slavery. Are you sure they won't be resentful and extremely fucked in the head?

Will you make 70 year olds do hard labour? People will be in there for 50 years, after all.

I really want to know more about why people need to pay for justice. (And who pays for it, as in the examples I mentioned.)

[Nazi Flower Power]

In principle I don't have a problem with the death penalty, but in practice I think there are a lot of courts that don't know how to use it responsibly.

Texas really needs to lay off on the executions. We Nazis have to work hard to up with them! I'm sure we gas a lot of innocent people, but we can't allow ourselves to be outdone by a bunch of hicks!

[Alyakia]

In principle I don't have a problem with the death penalty, but in practice I think there are a lot of courts that don't know how to use it responsibly.

Texas really needs to lay off on the executions. We Nazis have to work hard to up with them! I'm sure we gas a lot of innocent people, but we can't allow ourselves to be outdone by a bunch of hicks!

Ahahahah, you Nazi furreners think you can out do Texas/America? The United States had eugenics before you, and invented the gas chamber! Just give up and admit your inferiority now.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I could provide statistics showing the rock composition of the Mendips. They'd be about as much use to this arguement as yours are.

I also fail to see what the fact people die of TB, smoking and car accidents has to do with a debate about the death penalty. In fact I'm pretty sure in the grand scheme of things there pretty fucking irrelevant to this debate.

Also what charges should someone be charged with to deserve the death penalty in your mind? YOu seem to be quite fond of the idea so provide me with your utopian justice system target practise.

People dying of TB, smoking and car accidents are relevant because they are examples of a much greater loss of life than the death penalty (and much less deserved), thus it is strange that they recieve so little attention from people like you, whose entire professed reason for involvement is based on preventing death.

But anyway...
Here is my ideal justice system:

Assuming a guilty verdict, supported by evidence that eradicates any reasonable doubt (DNA, video footage, etc)
The punishment is as follows:

1st degree rape of 1 minor (under 18): 25 years in prison, hard labor.
1st degree rape of an adult (over 18): 20 years in prison (no hard labor)

1st degree rape of 2-5 minors: 50 years in prison, hard labor, castration (depending on particular case; 1 appeal against castration is allowed)
1st degree rape of 2-5 adults: 40 years in prison, hard labor

1st degree rape of 5+ minors: Execution (1 appeal allowed)
1st degree rape of 5-10 adults: Life in Prison, Hard Labor, castration (1 appeal allowed)
1st degree rape of 10+ adults: Execution (1 appeal allowed)

Note: This is all cumulative. Thus if you are convicted for 1 rape, serve your sentence and get rearrested for another rape it counts as 2 rapes the second time.

Preferred method of execution for sexual crimes: One shot to the back of the head, following administration of a general Anesthetic. Organ donation encouraged (family not billed for expenses if form filled out).


1st Degree Murder of Minor: Life in Prison, hard labor
1st degree murder of adult: 20 years - Life, hard labor
1st degree murder of police officer: Execution (1 appeal)
1st degree murder of a state official: Execution (1 appeal)
1st degree murder of pregnant female: Execution (1 appeal)
Multiple Murder (2+ murders): Execution (1 appeal)

Multiple Murders of profoundly sadistic nature: 20 years of solitary confinement, followed by execution (1 appeal)

Note: This is all cumulative. Thus if you are convicted for 1 murder, serve your sentence and get rearrested for another murder it counts as 2 murders the second time.

Preferred method of execution for violent crimes: One shot to the back of the head, following administration of a general Anesthetic. Organ donation encouraged (family not billed for expenses if form filled out).

Drug Trafficking (less than 5 kg): 5-25 years (hard labor eligible)
Drug Trafficking (5-10 kg): 25 years - life, hard labor
Drug Trafficking (10+ Kg): Execution (1 appeal)

Note: This counts for hard drugs (cocaine, heroine, opium, crystal meth), for soft drugs such as Marijuana, execution is only allowed if there are additional transgressions (such as multiple convictions).

For Drug Trafficking Crimes: Lethal Injection is preferred method. Organ Donation is encouraged (Family won't be billed if condemned fills our the form)


Treason: 10 years hard labor- Execution (varies widely depending on crime)(1 appeal)
Sedition: 15 years hard labor- Execution (again, varies widely)(1 appeal)
Desertion: Life Hard Labor (no appeal)
Defection (switching sides during time of war): Execution (no appeal)

For political crimes: execution is carried about by firing squad, no organ donation is considered due to the unpredictable nature of bodily harm. Family is, unless otherwise stated, always responsible for the bill.

All executions, unless otherwise states, are by default to be carried out within 2 weeks of the verdict. Appeals are to be registered no later than 1 week after the verdict, and can take no longer than 1 month. The cost of appeals are to be paid for by the convicted party if possible. If the convicted party is unable to pay for the appeal (due to cost), the courts will sponsor 1 appeal. For fairness, only one appeal is allowed, regardless of the convicted parties' ability to pay for more.

If the families of the condemned refuse to pay the bill of the execution, they will be held in contempt of court and charged with Larceny.

I don't think you've really thought this through. You sound like you're just throwing out numbers of years without any clear understanding of what they mean.

And why does the family have to pay? They aren't the ones who committed a crime.