The death penalty

[The Parkus Empire]

I don't see how it is any more than stealing is.

You see Parkus, there's a bit of a difference between killing someone and stealing their toothbrush.

Ya, there is. You have to be pretty depraved to use someone's else toothbrush.

[Crystal Spires]

Let me make things perfectly crystal clear: Either a state chooses to exercises on behalf of the citizens by carrying out their will or it is imposing its will upon them against their will.

If you're satisfied being a tyrant or a dictator ( benevolent or otherwise) that's perfectly justified within the frame of nation states, because it's your own nation state. However when it comes to mine, Crystal Spires, I act only as an arbiter of the collective will of my people and nothing more. I am their leader, and that is how I believe a leader should act. This is ideally how I believe a government should be if at all. And in real life, I live in a democracy, and the will of the people in my nation state is that executions are not only justified, but they're a right that victims are reserved.

[The Parkus Empire]

I don't see how it is any more than stealing is.

It doesn't help that this particular axiom is held a priori. If you're already part of the club, it naturally follows. If you're not, then it doesn't seem to work.

Not sure how you figure.

[Crystal Spires]

Did you read the statistic that said 70% of the added cost comes from the trial phase?

Yes, and I said this is non-negotiable. If you're going to have a trial at all you must be able to pay for all the appeals.

[Alyakia]

Did you read the statistic that said 70% of the added cost comes from the trial phase?

Yes, and I said this is non-negotiable.

Does that make you a tyrant?

[Alyakia]

Let me make things perfectly crystal clear: Either a state chooses to exercises on behalf of the citizens by carrying out their will or it is imposing its will upon them against their will.

I'm so desperate to bring up youknowwho right now. ):

[Geniasis]

It doesn't help that this particular axiom is held a priori. If you're already part of the club, it naturally follows. If you're not, then it doesn't seem to work.

Not sure how you figure.

If you already hold that killing is inherently wrong, then the entire argument follows that stealing isn't nearly as bad. If you don't already hold that, then the argument doesn't follow quite as easily.

[Crystal Spires]

Does that make you a tyrant?

Of course it does. What justifies any use of coercion by any government in the first place? What justifies their ability to insert themselves in people's private affairs in the first place? Nothing really. This is why I said, you're a perfectly wholesome person to be against the death penalty, but you're ultimately a terrible leader. Most wholesome people would never desire to lead in the first place. This is why.

[Greater Nilfgaard]

Because of the simple statistics, I just laid out. If you actually cared about human life, you would pay attention.

Nothing is perfect, but to end the death penalty because there is a tiny chance of someone being wrongfully executed, is absolutely ridiculous.

Especially with thousands of people dying each day of anything from cigarettes to terrorism. Dwelling on someone potentially be wrongfully executed, even after a fair trail and loads of evidence, is ludicrous.
If you really cared about human life, talk about health care reform, not your opposition to the death penalty.

What, the irrelevant statistics? The ones that take into account the whole spectrum from drug dealing to prostituition? The ones which dont prove a single fucking thing you said and make no point whatsoever?
Find stats for murderers who get released (and if someone was goign to be exectuted they probally wouldn't be eligble for parole anyway) who murder again.

Lol what? thousands of people die a day, fuck this one that could be prevented and is completely unfair. Bit of a shitty attitude you got there.
Also, surely if the trial had been 'fair' and the evidence concrete the wrong person wouldn't have been convicted, it would ahve been thrown out of court?

All I can say is at least I submitted some evidence and statistics to support my beliefs, as opposed to going on emotional and subjective rants while providing no concrete back up of any kind what so ever.

Honestly, I couldn't care less for the lives of guys like this http://us.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/08/26/delaware.pediatrician/index.html?hpt=ju_c2. And quite frankly, I find the fact that you are willing to kick and scream on their behalf (while at the same time going 'lol wut?' to the thousands of innocents who die every day of other things like smoking) to be profoundly disturbing.

You act like capital punishment is so preventable, what about street children dying of TB? What about smoking? Car accidents?

It's no secret that far more people die of these causes, and they are much less deserving of it.

[The Parkus Empire]

Not sure how you figure.

If you already hold that killing is inherently wrong, then the entire argument follows that stealing isn't nearly as bad. If you don't already hold that, then the argument doesn't follow quite as easily.

Whether or not stealing is nearly as bad has nothing to do with my argument about whether or not it's inherently bad.

[Nuvalia]

Even though life flourishes on our planet, we have no clue if it may exist other where in our universe. So we do our best to preserve it. So Imperial Decree-ID0038 has forbidden the death penalty only for the highest crimes to be committed in Nuvalia Treason, and Homicide.

That seems like a reasonable decree, but even if life is not discovered in other planets or if it does how would it change how you handle your decree?

The decree would not change, just because life exist other places. No one should be killed unless they were themselves a threat to life. So the law would remain valid and relevant.

[Crystal Spires]

The decree would not change, just because life exist other places. No one should be killed unless they were themselves a threat to life. So the law would remain valid and relevant.

So if the life discovered is indeed a threat to life in Nuvalia then death penalty would indeed be enforced upon the ones who are a threat to life. This is fair too.

[Alyakia]

What, the irrelevant statistics? The ones that take into account the whole spectrum from drug dealing to prostituition? The ones which dont prove a single fucking thing you said and make no point whatsoever?
Find stats for murderers who get released (and if someone was goign to be exectuted they probally wouldn't be eligble for parole anyway) who murder again.

Lol what? thousands of people die a day, fuck this one that could be prevented and is completely unfair. Bit of a shitty attitude you got there.
Also, surely if the trial had been 'fair' and the evidence concrete the wrong person wouldn't have been convicted, it would ahve been thrown out of court?

All I can say is at least I submitted some evidence and statistics to support my beliefs, as opposed to going on emotional and subjective rants while providing no concrete back up of any kind what so ever.

Honestly, I couldn't care less for the lives of guys like this http://us.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/08/26/delaware.pediatrician/index.html?hpt=ju_c2. And quite frankly, I find the fact that you are willing to kick and scream on their behalf (while at the same time going 'lol wut?' to the thousands of innocents who die every day of other things like smoking) to be profoundly disturbing.

You act like capital punishment is so preventable, what about street children dying of TB? What about smoking? Car accidents?

It's no secret that far more people die of these causes, and they are much less deserving of it.

You provided statistics. Yet, you keep ignoring the fact they are useless without more information and are completely irrelevant.

And you also keep ignoring that people can multi-task.

People act like capital punishment is preventable, because it is. You can stop it very easily. It is the matter of making/repealing a law. That's it. Do I even need to bloody explain how your examples are completely different and require so much more to prevent and even then it's not guaranteed to work?

[Alyakia]

We must use all of our energy on one issue why are you even talking about this stop talking ardfgbdsfasfsafa

[Horsefish]

All I can say is at least I submitted some evidence and statistics to support my beliefs, as opposed to going on emotional and subjective rants while providing no concrete back up of any kind what so ever.

Honestly, I couldn't care less for the lives of guys like this http://us.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/08/26/delaware.pediatrician/index.html?hpt=ju_c2. And quite frankly, I find the fact that you are willing to kick and scream on their behalf (while at the same time going 'lol wut?' to the thousands of innocents who die every day of other things like smoking) to be profoundly disturbing.

You act like capital punishment is so preventable, what about street children dying of TB? What about smoking? Car accidents?

It's no secret that far more people die of these causes, and they are much less deserving of it.

I could provide statistics showing the rock composition of the Mendips. They'd be about as much use to this arguement as yours are.

I also fail to see what the fact people die of TB, smoking and car accidents has to do with a debate about the death penalty. In fact I'm pretty sure in the grand scheme of things there pretty fucking irrelevant to this debate.

Also what charges should someone be charged with to deserve the death penalty in your mind? YOu seem to be quite fond of the idea so provide me with your utopian justice system target practise.

[Arlathian]

I am passionately against the death penilty.

[Greater Nilfgaard]

All I can say is at least I submitted some evidence and statistics to support my beliefs, as opposed to going on emotional and subjective rants while providing no concrete back up of any kind what so ever.

Honestly, I couldn't care less for the lives of guys like this http://us.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/08/26/delaware.pediatrician/index.html?hpt=ju_c2. And quite frankly, I find the fact that you are willing to kick and scream on their behalf (while at the same time going 'lol wut?' to the thousands of innocents who die every day of other things like smoking) to be profoundly disturbing.

You act like capital punishment is so preventable, what about street children dying of TB? What about smoking? Car accidents?

It's no secret that far more people die of these causes, and they are much less deserving of it.

I could provide statistics showing the rock composition of the Mendips. They'd be about as much use to this arguement as yours are.

I also fail to see what the fact people die of TB, smoking and car accidents has to do with a debate about the death penalty. In fact I'm pretty sure in the grand scheme of things there pretty fucking irrelevant to this debate.

Also what charges should someone be charged with to deserve the death penalty in your mind? YOu seem to be quite fond of the idea so provide me with your utopian justice system target practise.

People dying of TB, smoking and car accidents are relevant because they are examples of a much greater loss of life than the death penalty (and much less deserved), thus it is strange that they recieve so little attention from people like you, whose entire professed reason for involvement is based on preventing death.

But anyway...
Here is my ideal justice system:

Assuming a guilty verdict, supported by evidence that eradicates any reasonable doubt (DNA, video footage, etc)
The punishment is as follows:

1st degree rape of 1 minor (under 18): 25 years in prison, hard labor.
1st degree rape of an adult (over 18): 20 years in prison (no hard labor)

1st degree rape of 2-5 minors: 50 years in prison, hard labor, castration (depending on particular case; 1 appeal against castration is allowed)
1st degree rape of 2-5 adults: 40 years in prison, hard labor

1st degree rape of 5+ minors: Execution (1 appeal allowed)
1st degree rape of 5-10 adults: Life in Prison, Hard Labor, castration (1 appeal allowed)
1st degree rape of 10+ adults: Execution (1 appeal allowed)

Note: This is all cumulative. Thus if you are convicted for 1 rape, serve your sentence and get rearrested for another rape it counts as 2 rapes the second time.

Preferred method of execution for sexual crimes: One shot to the back of the head, following administration of a general Anesthetic. Organ donation encouraged (family not billed for expenses if form filled out).


1st Degree Murder of Minor: Life in Prison, hard labor
1st degree murder of adult: 20 years - Life, hard labor
1st degree murder of police officer: Execution (1 appeal)
1st degree murder of a state official: Execution (1 appeal)
1st degree murder of pregnant female: Execution (1 appeal)
Multiple Murder (2+ murders): Execution (1 appeal)

Multiple Murders of profoundly sadistic nature: 20 years of solitary confinement, followed by execution (1 appeal)

Note: This is all cumulative. Thus if you are convicted for 1 murder, serve your sentence and get rearrested for another murder it counts as 2 murders the second time.

Preferred method of execution for violent crimes: One shot to the back of the head, following administration of a general Anesthetic. Organ donation encouraged (family not billed for expenses if form filled out).

Drug Trafficking (less than 5 kg): 5-25 years (hard labor eligible)
Drug Trafficking (5-10 kg): 25 years - life, hard labor
Drug Trafficking (10+ Kg): Execution (1 appeal)

Note: This counts for hard drugs (cocaine, heroine, opium, crystal meth), for soft drugs such as Marijuana, execution is only allowed if there are additional transgressions (such as multiple convictions).

For Drug Trafficking Crimes: Lethal Injection is preferred method. Organ Donation is encouraged (Family won't be billed if condemned fills our the form)


Treason: 10 years hard labor- Execution (varies widely depending on crime)(1 appeal)
Sedition: 15 years hard labor- Execution (again, varies widely)(1 appeal)
Desertion: Life Hard Labor (no appeal)
Defection (switching sides during time of war): Execution (no appeal)

For political crimes: execution is carried about by firing squad, no organ donation is considered due to the unpredictable nature of bodily harm. Family is, unless otherwise stated, always responsible for the bill.

All executions, unless otherwise states, are by default to be carried out within 2 weeks of the verdict. Appeals are to be registered no later than 1 week after the verdict, and can take no longer than 1 month. The cost of appeals are to be paid for by the convicted party if possible. If the convicted party is unable to pay for the appeal (due to cost), the courts will sponsor 1 appeal. For fairness, only one appeal is allowed, regardless of the convicted parties' ability to pay for more.

If the families of the condemned refuse to pay the bill of the execution, they will be held in contempt of court and charged with Larceny.

[Risna]

If I kill you I get to live in prison with 3 meals a day, free medical care and a roof over my head. That does not make sense to me...

[Godular]

I prefer the singapore justice system. Screw jails. Its either a hefty fine, caning, or you get hung out to dry.

[Delanshar]

If I kill you I get to live in prison with 3 meals a day, free medical care and a roof over my head. That does not make sense to me...

It doesn't make sense to a lot of us.

Also, Nilfgaard, Nice justice system you got there!

May I recommend that all assets of the convicted party be seized, as opposed to just the cost of the execution (and possibly appeals).

Also, do this for those thrown in jail for sentences of 20 years or more. Have all their financial assets liquidated by the state to help pay for their stay in prison.

That would sure help with the cost, not just of the death penalty but the prison system in general..

Overall though, I have to say: Having the convicted party pay for the entire appeal process is pretty revolutionary an idea on it's own right. Same with the cost of the execution.

[Alyakia]

If I kill you I get to live in prison with 3 meals a day, free medical care and a roof over my head. That does not make sense to me...

And no freedom. Enjoy!

here every citizen gets free healthcare ):

[Alyakia]

People dying of TB, smoking and car accidents are relevant because they are examples of a much greater loss of life than the death penalty (and much less deserved), thus it is strange that they recieve so little attention from people like you, whose entire professed reason for involvement is based on preventing death.

They get lots of attention. They're also a lot harder to prevent. You can't prevent car accidents and TB by simply making/repeaing one law like you could to end the death penalty. Do you have ANY fucking idea what they would involve?

How many times do we need to tell you that people can multitask?

[Icamera]

Let me make things perfectly crystal clear: Either a state chooses to exercises on behalf of the citizens by carrying out their will or it is imposing its will upon them against their will.

I'm so desperate to bring up youknowwho right now. ):

Voldemort?

[Delanshar]

People dying of TB, smoking and car accidents are relevant because they are examples of a much greater loss of life than the death penalty (and much less deserved), thus it is strange that they recieve so little attention from people like you, whose entire professed reason for involvement is based on preventing death.

They get lots of attention. They're also a lot harder to prevent. You can't prevent car accidents and TB by simply making/repeaing one law like you could to end the death penalty. Do you have ANY fucking idea what they would involve?

How many times do we need to tell you that people can multitask?

yeah but why would you want to repeal it? Read Nilf's Justice system proposal, he has some good ideas for getting the cost down and making it fairer.

[Trixiestan]

If I kill you I get to live in prison with 3 meals a day, free medical care and a roof over my head. That does not make sense to me...

That's because you obviously live in a shithole of a country. You should focus less on how it makes sense for prisoners to live humanely and more on why the rest of the country doesn't live as humanely. Then hopefully one day your life will just be as good as that of a convict. :3