A hypothetical: is it slavery?

[AiliailiA]

You own an island and you are the sole resident. You are completely self-sufficient and you have food to spare. Your island is way out in the ocean.

One day, a man is sailing by in his yacht when suddenly the yacht sinks and he swims towards your island. He doesn't appear to be armed.

Before he can walk up the beach though, you walk down to the shoreline displaying your gun, and you inform him that the island is private property and he can only enter it if he agrees to the terms set by the owner, yourself.

"What are the terms?" he asks. You reply "well firstly you must strip to the skin so I can be sure you are not armed, but I will set further terms whenever I feel like it. If you don't agree to them you may then leave, and if you refuse to leave I will shoot you for trespass".

The man looks over his shoulder at the unbroken horizon and the sharks attracted by detritus from his sunken yacht, shrugs and agrees to your terms.

Have you, or have you not, just made the man your slave? Explain why or why not.

[Jello Biafra]

Yes, it's slavery. He should kill me in my sleep rather than submit to it.

[1000 Cats]

Slaves don't necessarily need to be mistreated (in fact, they usually weren't, if I recall, until more recent times). A slave is just someone who is indentured to you to work for you, and does not have freedom to make many of his own choices.

[AiliailiA]

Someone just voted the two lines that are meant to separate to top half of the poll (yes/no/other) from the bottom half. I'm not sure if they meant to do that ...

You don't have to vote 6 times if you don't want to. This is one of those polls where you can change your vote later.

[Yootwopia]

Yes, because the terms of his contract can be changed any time.

[AiliailiA]

Yes, it's slavery. He should kill me in my sleep rather than submit to it.

OK. I don't like the look in his eye. My next move would be to chain him to a tree every time I want to go to sleep.

Feels bad, but I don't see why I should risk it. And I'd let him have a stick to beat off the ocelots with.

[Call to power]

Maybe, he does not exactly have a choice in the matter of stripping down but then the only thing asked of him is that he strip down as a security procedure (I just wanted to look at his penis)

It may well become slavery if I force him to work or whatever but as it stands all I am doing is being a little paranoid about letting a stranger into my house

[AiliailiA]

Yes, becuase the terms of his contract can be changed any time.

I tried to cover that.

He has the option of leaving if he doesn't agree to a new term, and I'll give him a few minutes to decide before it's "agree, leave or get shot" time.

[Yootwopia]

Yes, becuase the terms of his contract can be changed any time.

I tried to cover that.

He has the option of leaving if he doesn't agree to a new term, and I'll give him a few minutes to decide before it's "agree, leave or get shot" time.

He doesn't have any means of escape, and the waters around the island are obviously shark-infested. I'd be tempted to drop a rock on the island's owner's face in his sleep for being such a dick.

[Xomic]

My anarchist sense is tingling.

[ZombieRothbard]

Obviously you did. You don't have a right to hold trespassers at gun point, or to kill them.

[Jello Biafra]

Obviously you did. You don't have a right to hold trespassers at gun point, or to kill them.

Why not? I homesteaded the island, and the newcomer should only be allowed on my property if they agree to my terms, right?

[ZombieRothbard]

Obviously you did. You don't have a right to hold trespassers at gun point, or to kill them.

whyot? I homesteaded the island, and the newcomer should only be allowed on my property if they agree to my terms, right?

You could refuse him entry to your island, yes. But you cannot hold him at gunpoint and force him to work.

[Newfoundflats]

I would not act in such a dishonorable manner. The man is a victim of circumstance. If his boat had not sunk, you and he would never have even met. Offer him your hospitality and do what you can to see that he is rescued so that he may continue on his happy path.

[The Floridian Coast]

You have gotten him to submit to your will, but you haven't made him your property unless he remains submitted to your will.

If you two are the only ones on the island, he's going to have a chance to kill you, it's that simple. You need to sleep, you need to go take a piss. And you aren't going to keep this person chained up, otherwise you're feeding someone without them contributing.

One of two things will happen - one of you two will kill each other, OR, both of you will relinquish desire to be in charge for the sake of mutual survival. But one will not remain another's slave.

Property and ownership require force to keep it, and there is only so much force one man can exert against another. To truly have slavery you need a system, and many people.

[ZombieRothbard]

You have gotten him to submit to your will, but you haven't made him your property unless he remains submitted to your will.

If you two are the only ones on the island, he's going to have a chance to kill you, it's that simple. You need to sleep, you need to go take a piss. And you aren't going to keep this person chained up, otherwise you're feeding someone without them contributing.

One of two things will happen - one of you two will kill each other, OR, both of you will relinquish desire to be in charge for the sake of mutual survival. But one will not remain another's slave.

Property and ownership require force to keep it, and there is only so much force one man can exert against another. To truly have slavery you need a system, and many people.

This is a good analysis. Another possibility is the man on the island could exchange usage of his ham radio for the newcomers labor. Rescue would probably take a while to arrive, and maybe in return the newcomer can help the islander fix his porch he has been meaning to fix for years.

[Jello Biafra]

whyot? I homesteaded the island, and the newcomer should only be allowed on my property if they agree to my terms, right?

You could refuse him entry to your island, yes. But you cannot hold him at gunpoint and force him to work.

He's not 'forced' to work. He can always leave.

[Sorratsin]

whyot? I homesteaded the island, and the newcomer should only be allowed on my property if they agree to my terms, right?

You could refuse him entry to your island, yes. But you cannot hold him at gunpoint and force him to work.

His circumstances are forcing him to work, he has no where else to go.

The gun only serves to establish your authority over the island.

[Othileon]

The way I see it, this is not slavery, it is your property, and you have the right to defend it by whatever means!

He is choosing to stay, you are not forcing him too, and every time the terms change he has the option to leave, sure he might be eaten by sharks if he does but that is nothing to do with you, as the sea and sharks around the island are not your property.

[Keronians]

No. All you've asked him to do is strip because you don't know whether he's armed or not (and you're paranoid).

Apart from that, though, there's little you can do if you're just one. You're going to have to sleep, and you're going to get off guard sometime.

[ZombieRothbard]

You could refuse him entry to your island, yes. But you cannot hold him at gunpoint and force him to work.

He's not 'forced' to work. He can always leave.

If the man agrees to stay there and work then it isn't slavery, but you cannot chain a man to a tree at gunpoint and force him to work against his will.

[Sorratsin]

The way I see it, this is not slavery, it is your property, and you have the right to defend it by whatever means!

He is choosing to stay, you are not forcing him too, and every time the terms change he has the option to leave, sure he might be eaten by sharks if he does but that is nothing to do with you, as the sea and sharks around the island are not your property.

Slaves also had the choice to escape, or to not work.

[ZombieRothbard]

The way I see it, this is not slavery, it is your property, and you have the right to defend it by whatever means!

He is choosing to stay, you are not forcing him too, and every time the terms change he has the option to leave, sure he might be eaten by sharks if he does but that is nothing to do with you, as the sea and sharks around the island are not your property.

You have a right to defend your property by any means? I doubt you are an egoist, so I think you probably don't actually believe that.

[Alvari (Ancient)]

Not slavery. Slavery is the ownership of a person. The person who comes to your island is not your property - he only becomes a slave if the terms make him my property.

Besides, I wouldn't like to live on an island island and I would not make the person strip to the skin.
Thirdly I'm a geoist - follower of an ideology which says natural resources, especially land, belong equally to all. In order for me to own the island it would have to be artificial, and made by me or my property or sold or gifted to me by someone who did create it - otherwise the land is everyone's property. The unfortunate person just can't touch the things I actually do own.

[New Asgariath]

whyot? I homesteaded the island, and the newcomer should only be allowed on my property if they agree to my terms, right?

You could refuse him entry to your island, yes. But you cannot hold him at gunpoint and force him to work.

By what laws? I don't remember the US trespassing laws having jurisdiction over random privately owned islands.