Libertarian Islands

[Sibirsky]

I know you've used this argument before; I simply say that cheap, exploited Third World labour benefits everyone in the libertarian society; therefore it is entirely rational that its members would continue to deal with these companies. They aren't doing anything "wrong"; merely taking advantage of an opportunity to minimise costs.

If there was no third world, and everywhere was a libertarian society, then proper competition in the labour market would raise the wages and improve the working conditions of the previously exploited workforce. But just because this isn't the case doesn't make consumers the evil ones, they are just making a rational economic decision to increase their utility.

Most people aren't too hot on children having to work long hours everyday and sacrficing an opportunity at education for it. They sure as hell don't give up their cheap products for them.

I'm not saying that the consumers are evil. I'm saying that there is no reason why the case wouldn't be replicated in the case of organised crime.

Education is not an opportunity they can afford. What gets denied to them, is usually dumpster diving, begging for change, stealing....

[Moral Libertarians]

Customer reviews, word of mouth opinions, common sense...

Many ways.

None of which will prevent a person from being poisoned in future.

The offending business going bankrupt would solve that quite effectively...

But I fear we're getting bogged down in a small, relatively unimportant issue. What I said about decisions and their consequences applies across the whole range of human activity.

[Sibirsky]

Especially in this particular case.

Florists are licensed by licensing boards. Licensing boards consist of licensed florists. They licenses are issued based on a stupid knowledge test, and a high subjective floral arrangement test. The licensing board has an incentive to give licenses to bad florists (the market will kill them) and to keep good florists out of the market by denying them licenses (who in the world is going to give a license to someone who can take a portion of their market share?)

Which is why I think the way licensing works is fucked up.

Your accounting license has been revoked for thinking that licensing is fucked up. Sorry.

[Inertina]

None of which will prevent a person from being poisoned in future.

The offending business going bankrupt would solve that quite effectively...

But I fear we're getting bogged down in a small, relatively unimportant issue. What I said about decisions and their consequences applies across the whole range of human activity.

I don't know, I think it's actually an important issue. Regulations exist often to protect the consumer. And in the case of the offending business, they might still be able to mask their own culpability, especially if there are no regulatory boards to check and make sure their safety standards are up to snuff.

[Gauthier]

Can we say Bioshock?

I wonder if Ron Paul played that game?

Has anyone seen Ron Paul play golf much since then?

[Keronians]

Which is why I think the way licensing works is fucked up.

Your accounting license has been revoked for thinking that licensing is fucked up. Sorry.

Meh, I have to quit next week anyway.

Wait, does this mean I don't get paid?

[Terra Agora]

If anything there would be less crime. Much less crime.
Crime associated with drugs and prostitution would be non existent.

Prostitution is legal in Europe and, I think, Canada.

That's some strange thing the US has.

Only a few countries have prostitution legal in Europe.
Most of them you need licences etc. In other words, they are highly regulated. (sort of like how Nevada does it)
I'm not sure about Canada.

[Grave_n_idle]

Not really. The way in which black markets remain successful is in being secret. And, ideally, mobile.

Setting up an island to act as a black market effectively destroys the two advantages black markets have (and need).

A black market is simply a market for a product which the state has declared illegal. Its agents relentlessly hunt down the participants in this marketplace, distorting price signals and incentives by imposing extra potential costs on transactions (i.e. being arrested while completing the transaction). It's only logical to expect them to use criminal methods and try to hide from the criminals pursuing them. While on land.

My point is, there may well be many products deemed 'illegal' in circulation on the island. Along with ones which are "legal". There's no special emphasis on "black products". They might be being produced there, they might not be. And unless governments want to toss the rules they have developed for dealing with each other out the window, they'd leave the island be. It wouldn't be worth the effort.

On the subject of 'not worth the effort', establishing a black-market friendly trading venue, and then using it to trade regular commodities...

As for this claim: "And unless governments want to toss the rules they have developed for dealing with each other out the window, they'd leave the island be." It doesn't even make sense.

[Keronians]

None of which will prevent a person from being poisoned in future.

The offending business going bankrupt would solve that quite effectively...

But I fear we're getting bogged down in a small, relatively unimportant issue. What I said about decisions and their consequences applies across the whole range of human activity.

I find them important. Consumer protection laws are there for good reasons.

Sometimes, the inflation that occurs as a consequence, and the disturbance in the equilibrium is worth it.

[Moral Libertarians]

The offending business going bankrupt would solve that quite effectively...

But I fear we're getting bogged down in a small, relatively unimportant issue. What I said about decisions and their consequences applies across the whole range of human activity.

I don't know, I think it's actually an important issue. Regulations exist often to protect the consumer. And in the case of the offending business, they might still be able to mask their own culpability, especially if there are no regulatory boards to check and make sure their safety standards are up to snuff.

If their safety standards are not up to scratch, or their products are overpriced... competitors exist by the bucketload. We've abolished licenses in this economy, remember? All you need to set up a competing business is determination and a bit of capital; no government regulations to fight through.

[Keronians]

Prostitution is legal in Europe and, I think, Canada.

That's some strange thing the US has.

Only a few countries have prostitution legal in Europe.
Most of them you need licences etc. In other words, they are highly regulated. (sort of like how Nevada does it)
I'm not sure about Canada.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _world.PNG

For prostitution.

As for regulation, as well it should be.

[Trotskylvania]

Organized crime has it's fingers into things much worse than dope peddling. Like sex trafficking

Prostitution would be legal as well...

Sex trafficking still happens in states where prostitution is legal. Sex slaves are cheaper, and the only way to fulfill certain proclivities.

[Moral Libertarians]

A black market is simply a market for a product which the state has declared illegal. Its agents relentlessly hunt down the participants in this marketplace, distorting price signals and incentives by imposing extra potential costs on transactions (i.e. being arrested while completing the transaction). It's only logical to expect them to use criminal methods and try to hide from the criminals pursuing them. While on land.

My point is, there may well be many products deemed 'illegal' in circulation on the island. Along with ones which are "legal". There's no special emphasis on "black products". They might be being produced there, they might not be. And unless governments want to toss the rules they have developed for dealing with each other out the window, they'd leave the island be. It wouldn't be worth the effort.

On the subject of 'not worth the effort', establishing a black-market friendly trading venue, and then using it to trade regular commodities...

As for this claim: "And unless governments want to toss the rules they have developed for dealing with each other out the window, they'd leave the island be." It doesn't even make sense.

I don't pretend to be interested in the intricacies of government dealings and politics, but I'm sure there would be some sort of backlash against one that went around attacking people. It wasn't clearly worded, anyway; I concede you that.

[Grave_n_idle]

they work in people's homes.

I realize that. But all they do is arrange furniture, some decorations, and color coordinate the stuff. They show you examples of their work, before you decide to hire them. They cannot do damage to your health, finances, or freedom.

Ok, why are florists licensed in some states?

Because florists want it that way.

[Keronians]

I don't know, I think it's actually an important issue. Regulations exist often to protect the consumer. And in the case of the offending business, they might still be able to mask their own culpability, especially if there are no regulatory boards to check and make sure their safety standards are up to snuff.

If their safety standards are not up to scratch, or their products are overpriced... competitors exist by the bucketload. We've abolished licenses in this economy, remember? All you need to set up a competing business is determination and a bit of capital; no government regulations to fight through.

Meh, price skimming is something you can't really dismiss by just saying "competitors".

Often, a new product is overpriced simply because it's new and it's thought that, due to the lack of competitors, it will sell despite the higher prices.

A bit of capital? You are highly, highly underestimating the start-up capital required, and the amount of time it takes most sole traders to break even.

EDIT: This isn't a problem, but sometimes a firm's marketing mix leads to overpriced goods as well.

[Moral Libertarians]

If their safety standards are not up to scratch, or their products are overpriced... competitors exist by the bucketload. We've abolished licenses in this economy, remember? All you need to set up a competing business is determination and a bit of capital; no government regulations to fight through.

Meh, price skimming is something you can't really dismiss by just saying "competitors".

Often, a new product is overpriced simply because it's new and it's thought that, due to the lack of competitors, it will sell despite the higher prices.

If consumers are willing to pay those prices, what business is it of mine? They must value the product enough to view the higher price as worthwhile.

A bit of capital? You are highly, highly underestimating the start-up capital required, and the amount of time it takes most sole traders to break even.

That was kind of a joke... but the start-up capital will vary greatly depending on the industry. And it becomes a lot more viable to start a business if you know the filthy state won't stick its fingers into your gross margins.

[Grave_n_idle]

Customer reviews, word of mouth opinions, common sense...

Many ways.

None of which will prevent a person from being poisoned in future.

Indeed. There's no prevention mechanism.

[Keronians]

Meh, price skimming is something you can't really dismiss by just saying "competitors".

Often, a new product is overpriced simply because it's new and it's thought that, due to the lack of competitors, it will sell despite the higher prices.

If consumers are willing to pay those prices, what business is it of mine? They must value the product enough to view the higher price as worthwhile.

A bit of capital? You are highly, highly underestimating the start-up capital required, and the amount of time it takes most sole traders to break even.

That was kind of a joke... but the start-up capital will vary greatly depending on the industry. And it becomes a lot more viable to start a business if you know the filthy state won't stick its fingers into your gross margins.

The gross margin isn't as important.

You know, a lot of the money you lose as a sole trader is interest payments to banks who loaned you money.

Subsidies for small businesses are plentiful. As well they should be.

[Grave_n_idle]

On the subject of 'not worth the effort', establishing a black-market friendly trading venue, and then using it to trade regular commodities...

As for this claim: "And unless governments want to toss the rules they have developed for dealing with each other out the window, they'd leave the island be." It doesn't even make sense.

I don't pretend to be interested in the intricacies of government dealings and politics, but I'm sure there would be some sort of backlash against one that went around attacking people. It wasn't clearly worded, anyway; I concede you that.

All that would have to be done is to portray the seasteaders as criminal. People would not only not object to such an 'attack' - they'd actively support it.

[Grave_n_idle]

I don't know, I think it's actually an important issue. Regulations exist often to protect the consumer. And in the case of the offending business, they might still be able to mask their own culpability, especially if there are no regulatory boards to check and make sure their safety standards are up to snuff.

If their safety standards are not up to scratch, or their products are overpriced... competitors exist by the bucketload. We've abolished licenses in this economy, remember? All you need to set up a competing business is determination and a bit of capital; no government regulations to fight through.

Government regulation =/= licensing requirement.

[Moral Libertarians]

If consumers are willing to pay those prices, what business is it of mine? They must value the product enough to view the higher price as worthwhile.



That was kind of a joke... but the start-up capital will vary greatly depending on the industry. And it becomes a lot more viable to start a business if you know the filthy state won't stick its fingers into your gross margins.

The gross margin isn't as important.

You know, a lot of the money you lose as a sole trader is interest payments to banks who loaned you money.

Subsidies for small businesses are plentiful. As well they should be.

IMO, the many subsidies provided to small businesses (including tax breaks, which aren't really subsidies, but we'll ignore that) are more than cancelled out by taxes and regulations in force on their respective sectors.

[Moral Libertarians]

If their safety standards are not up to scratch, or their products are overpriced... competitors exist by the bucketload. We've abolished licenses in this economy, remember? All you need to set up a competing business is determination and a bit of capital; no government regulations to fight through.

Government regulation =/= licensing requirement.

Abolish them as well, then.

[Sibirsky]

The offending business going bankrupt would solve that quite effectively...

But I fear we're getting bogged down in a small, relatively unimportant issue. What I said about decisions and their consequences applies across the whole range of human activity.

I don't know, I think it's actually an important issue. Regulations exist often to protect the consumer. And in the case of the offending business, they might still be able to mask their own culpability, especially if there are no regulatory boards to check and make sure their safety standards are up to snuff.

Most regulations protect existing businesses from new competition.

[Unilisia]

"In international news, dozens of people are being held hostage by pirates today.."

Future headlines

[Keronians]

The gross margin isn't as important.

You know, a lot of the money you lose as a sole trader is interest payments to banks who loaned you money.

Subsidies for small businesses are plentiful. As well they should be.

IMO, the many subsidies provided to small businesses (including tax breaks, which aren't really subsidies, but we'll ignore that) are more than cancelled out by taxes and regulations in force on their respective sectors.

They're really not.

Most of the accounts I do are for small businesses (who else would have a 16 year-old do their accounts?), and I can tell you that taxes do not represent the largest costs.

As for regulations, most regulations make perfect sense.

What's wrong with requiring a company to train first aiders and keep accident books?