Your view on The EU

[Angleter]

However, we could leave and remain in the EEA, and we'd still get the benefits of trade with a more prosperous Eastern Europe. Meanwhile Germany gets its money's worth in its effective economic domination of Europe, and France gets its money's worth in being the leader in terms of EU foreign policy.

And please do tell me what the advantages are to EU membership, aside from EURATOM. Disadvantages include the haemorrhaging of money to Brussels, the variety of Europarl laws that have sod-all to do with the single market and could just as easily be enacted here if it's a good idea (ie. all that doesn't get 'faxed' to the EFTA states), not to mention the fact that we'd get full control over our foreign policy back if we leave. There are more, I'm sure, but that should get us started.

And back in 1973/4, even though I oppose the move myself, there was no EEA and so EEC membership was more economically attractive (they said three million jobs would be gained/saved by EEC membership- ironically, that's what was lost as a result, but we made jobs elsewhere too). I have every confidence that had John Major carried on in the vein of Thatcher, then we would've withdrawn at Maastricht to return to EFTA and the EEA. If not then, then we ought to step back now before the whole union gets tightened up further.

Eh, it's a bit outdated, but: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/so-what-has-europe-ever-done-for-us-apart-from-441138.html

As for joining EFTA, might I remind you that you'd be forced to accept laws regarding the single market even if they don't benefit you, whilst if you were in the EU, you could actually have a say in the Council and the Parliament.

Yes, they are, to quote Daniel Hannan, "deal with such matters as the correct way to list ingredients on a ketchup bottle; they do not tell the Norwegians and Icelanders what to tax, where to fish, whom to employ or what surplus to run". There've been fewer than 50 Althing and Storting acts forced by the EU from 1992-2005.

Anyway, I'll give you 7 (could get participation rights like Norway, perhaps), 8, 14, 23 (don't know if EFTA do this), 24 (ditto), 45, 46 (though that's more my beef with the NHS), and 48. This being things that are relevant now, don't apply to EFTA/EEA, and that we couldn't do ourselves. Not enough, in my estimation- even many of those I'm sure could be at least alleviated were we to go EFTA.

[Vestr-Norig]

The Eu is a Capitalist, secular so-called democracy,

So-called? The European Parliament is directly elected, and all the members of the EU are liberal democracies.

only made to serve the largest countires of Europe (Germany, Britain, France, etc),

Do you realise how much the EU invests into eastern Europe?

While for smaller nations it is like a dictatorship. Is only good for the largest coorporations, no one else.

The EU kills local democracies, and centralizes most forms of power and administration to Brüssel.

What are you talking about? The EU promotes liberal democracies, and most power is most certainly not centralised. The EU can only govern where it is competent. To be competent, a piece of legislation must have been passed.

They consciously neglects smaller countires and its people, and denies counties true independence. Those in power would rather see a fully united Europe, as one country. They wants a superstate.

Yeah, neglecting them by allowing them to petition the ECJ and General Court, and granting them fundamental rights, protecting their right to live and work in other countries, while being able to move freely, etc. How ebil.

As for the superstate, no. Federation, actually, and that has been the goal from the start.

Hopefully, it will fall soon, which is also very likely, as the opposition to the EU is rising in a extremely high tempo in all of Europe. For example, here in Norway, in the EU referendum in 1994, only just above 50 percent voted against the EU, while today, more than 65 percent of the population is against. And this is happening all over Europe.

The only problem is that... Norway was never IN the EU! Have you looked at the seats on the European Parliament recently? Only 7.5% of the EP is eurosceptic.

And it's happening all over Europe? Nope. Iceland, Turkey, Serbia, etc actively seek to join the EU.

It is a common fact that the EU makes more and more rules, that many of the nations within the union opposes, but the Union still implements. While the largest countries in the EU have a very high influence on the Union, the smaller ones has almost none, and has little or nothing to say in important issues. And the Union denies the member states to have proper independent politics, which is, off course very sad.

And off course, in the European parlament, a very high percent are pro-Eu. It is the same in Norway, and in most of the countries within the European Union. The people are against the union, while the leading politicians are for. It is not abnormal at all.

I know Norway never was in the EU, I live here. But the fact is, that Eurosceptic parties all over Europe are gaining votes. Amon them are the True Finns in Finland, and Lega NOrd, in Italy. And there are many more.
In Iceland, more than 70 percent of the population is against the Eu, shows a recent poll. If Iceland joins the European Union, the government there will go against their own people. I won't say that is democracy.

[Jello Biafra]

They consciously neglects smaller countires and its people, and denies counties true independence. Those in power would rather see a fully united Europe, as one country. They wants a superstate.

While the largest countries in the EU have a very high influence on the Union, the smaller ones has almost none, and has little or nothing to say in important issues.

The smaller EU states have a larger influence than their populations alone would merit.

[Faith Hope Charity]

From an economic standpoint, its terrible. Having everyone using the same currency removes each individual country's responsibility to manage it's own debts... as we are seeing now, and it makes other countries that are more financially responsible pay for the excesses of others. It is unfair at it's core.
I am one for further decentralization of power, not further centralization of power. The more responsibility going to the most local level gives better results as to effective government.

[The Planet Carpathia]

It is a common fact that the EU makes more and more rules, that many of the nations within the union opposes, but the Union still implements. While the largest countries in the EU have a very high influence on the Union, the smaller ones has almost none, and has little or nothing to say in important issues. And the Union denies the member states to have proper independent politics, which is, off course very sad.

Utter bollocks. The EU commissioners are appointed by member state's governments (there are 27, by the way, one for each member state) and member of the Council of Ministers are actually in the governments of member states (and again there are 27 ministers, one per member state). And as for EU laws, they only apply where the EU has jurisdiction. The vast majority of legislation in the EU is national legislation (created and approved by national parliaments).

And off course, in the European parlament, a very high percent are pro-Eu. It is the same in Norway, and in most of the countries within the European Union. The people are against the union, while the leading politicians are for. It is not abnormal at all.

And the reason the vast majority are Pro EU can't possibly be anything to do with the fact that the vast majority of voters voted for Pro EU parties. I mean it's not like the Parliament is directly elected or anything.

I know Norway never was in the EU, I live here. But the fact is, that Eurosceptic parties all over Europe are gaining votes. Amon them are the True Finns in Finland, and Lega NOrd, in Italy. And there are many more.
In Iceland, more than 70 percent of the population is against the Eu, shows a recent poll. If Iceland joins the European Union, the government there will go against their own people. I won't say that is democracy.

And the rise of those parties is purely due to anti EU sentiment? There can't be any other reason for why parties that happen to be Eurosceptic might be gaining in popularity?

Also, can you source that statistic? If Iceland holds a referendum on the EU and 70%of the people vote against it and the government join anyway then you might have a point. As it is, the poll (for I presume that's where you get the statistic from) could be a complete load of toss. For example, I would highy doubt a poll on the EU carried out by UKIP, or for that matter the Federalist Party. The two sides have ulterior motives to distort the result.

[New East Ireland]

I think the EU is a good idea. It's a way for European nations to get closer politically and economically and to act as a type of miniature UN.

[Keronians]

It is a common fact that the EU makes more and more rules, that many of the nations within the union opposes, but the Union still implements. While the largest countries in the EU have a very high influence on the Union, the smaller ones has almost none, and has little or nothing to say in important issues. And the Union denies the member states to have proper independent politics, which is, off course very sad.

Bullshit. All of it.

The larger countries have more influence because... they have larger populations! The smaller states are overepresented, actually. What do you mean: "proper independent politics"?

And off course, in the European parlament, a very high percent are pro-Eu. It is the same in Norway, and in most of the countries within the European Union. The people are against the union, while the leading politicians are for. It is not abnormal at all.

And who elect those politicians? There is no lack of eurosceptic parties. Even in the UK, arguably the most eurosceptic country in the union, the number of votes for pro-EU parties far outweighs the number of votes for anti-EU parties.

I know Norway never was in the EU, I live here. But the fact is, that Eurosceptic parties all over Europe are gaining votes. Amon them are the True Finns in Finland, and Lega NOrd, in Italy. And there are many more.

Yeah. And they STILL hold only 7.5% of the European Parliament.

In Iceland, more than 70 percent of the population is against the Eu, shows a recent poll. If Iceland joins the European Union, the government there will go against their own people. I won't say that is democracy.

Source?

Also, Iceland IS a democracy. Its government knows what needs to be done: it wants EU money. They're getting bailed out for free and to top it off they're complaining? Talk about ungrateful.

[Vestr-Norig]

It is a common fact that the EU makes more and more rules, that many of the nations within the union opposes, but the Union still implements. While the largest countries in the EU have a very high influence on the Union, the smaller ones has almost none, and has little or nothing to say in important issues. And the Union denies the member states to have proper independent politics, which is, off course very sad.

Utter bollocks. The EU commissioners are appointed by member state's governments (there are 27, by the way, one for each member state) and member of the Council of Ministers are actually in the governments of member states (and again there are 27 ministers, one per member state). And as for EU laws, they only apply where the EU has jurisdiction. The vast majority of legislation in the EU is national legislation (created and approved by national parliaments).

And off course, in the European parlament, a very high percent are pro-Eu. It is the same in Norway, and in most of the countries within the European Union. The people are against the union, while the leading politicians are for. It is not abnormal at all.

And the reason the vast majority are Pro EU can't possibly be anything to do with the fact that the vast majority of voters voted for Pro EU parties. I mean it's not like the Parliament is directly elected or anything.

I know Norway never was in the EU, I live here. But the fact is, that Eurosceptic parties all over Europe are gaining votes. Amon them are the True Finns in Finland, and Lega NOrd, in Italy. And there are many more.
In Iceland, more than 70 percent of the population is against the Eu, shows a recent poll. If Iceland joins the European Union, the government there will go against their own people. I won't say that is democracy.

And the rise of those parties is purely due to anti EU sentiment? There can't be any other reason for why parties that happen to be Eurosceptic might be gaining in popularity?

Also, can you source that statistic? If Iceland holds a referendum on the EU and 70%of the people vote against it and the government join anyway then you might have a point. As it is, the poll (for I presume that's where you get the statistic from) could be a complete load of toss. For example, I would highy doubt a poll on the EU carried out by UKIP, or for that matter the Federalist Party. The two sides have ulterior motives to distort the result.

There are many factors why Eurosceptic parties are gaining popularity, but I doupt many pro-EU people would vote for them. The major percent of the voters for that party are eurosceptic. That is however not the situation when it comes to the pro-EU parties. If we take Norway, the three largest parties are pro-EU, while, as said only a very low part of those who votes for that parties are pro-EU. In fact, only in one of those parties the majority of the supporters are pro-eu.

Source (in Norwegian) for that most Icelenders are against the EU:
http://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/110812 ... -pa-island
65 percent are against, it says.

[New East Ireland]

Source (in Norwegian) for that most Icelenders are against the EU:
http://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/110812 ... -pa-island
65 percent are against, it says.

1. It's Norwegian. What if you can't understand Norwegian?
2. Why is Norway taking polls on Iceland?

[Keronians]

Utter bollocks. The EU commissioners are appointed by member state's governments (there are 27, by the way, one for each member state) and member of the Council of Ministers are actually in the governments of member states (and again there are 27 ministers, one per member state). And as for EU laws, they only apply where the EU has jurisdiction. The vast majority of legislation in the EU is national legislation (created and approved by national parliaments).


And the reason the vast majority are Pro EU can't possibly be anything to do with the fact that the vast majority of voters voted for Pro EU parties. I mean it's not like the Parliament is directly elected or anything.


And the rise of those parties is purely due to anti EU sentiment? There can't be any other reason for why parties that happen to be Eurosceptic might be gaining in popularity?

Also, can you source that statistic? If Iceland holds a referendum on the EU and 70%of the people vote against it and the government join anyway then you might have a point. As it is, the poll (for I presume that's where you get the statistic from) could be a complete load of toss. For example, I would highy doubt a poll on the EU carried out by UKIP, or for that matter the Federalist Party. The two sides have ulterior motives to distort the result.

There are many factors why Eurosceptic parties are gaining popularity, but I doupt many pro-EU people would vote for them. The major percent of the voters for that party are eurosceptic. That is however not the situation when it comes to the pro-EU parties. If we take Norway, the three largest parties are pro-EU, while, as said only a very low part of those who votes for that parties are pro-EU. In fact, only in one of those parties the majority of the supporters are pro-eu.

Source (in Norwegian) for that most Icelenders are against the EU:
http://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/110812 ... -pa-island
65 percent are against, it says.

I'll get back to you, but why exactly can't they vote for anti-EU parties in European elections?

[Keronians]

Source (in Norwegian) for that most Icelenders are against the EU:
http://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/110812 ... -pa-island
65 percent are against, it says.

1. It's Norwegian. What if you can't understand Norwegian?
2. Why is Norway taking polls on Iceland?

Google Translate is your friend.



EDIT: Seems legit. Iceland Gallup poll.

[Alyakia]

The point is that unwanted legislation can't be forced upon you, whilst if you were in EFTA, it could.

Well it can. What happens if every single UK MEP votes no on a law. Is it still passed or does it not get through?

A few wise men on these forums said a few things once, and really, I think they're relevant here. Just because we're sort of edging on the issue.

Scotland Britian currently has 59 72 out of 650 736 seats, giving it 9% of the seats with 8% of the population.

so don't start complaining about representation.

9.7% and 8.4%. Sweet. I don't even have to change the numbers. Even if it really should be 10%.

As 'Scotland' 'Britian' and 'England' 'Europe' are not voting blocs, I see no such domination.

But, as I say above, English European M(E)Ps are not in competition with Scottish British M(E)Ps.

Scotland Britain is a part of the UK EU, that means at times it is possible that the majority of people in Scotland Britian might not vote the same way as the overall uk eu vote.

[New East Ireland]

1. It's Norwegian. What if you can't understand Norwegian?
2. Why is Norway taking polls on Iceland?

Google Translate is your friend.



EDIT: Seems legit. Iceland Gallup poll.

It isn't accurate though...

And again, why the hell is Norway concerned with Iceland?

[Keronians]

There are many factors why Eurosceptic parties are gaining popularity, but I doupt many pro-EU people would vote for them. The major percent of the voters for that party are eurosceptic.

Duh.

That is however not the situation when it comes to the pro-EU parties. If we take Norway, the three largest parties are pro-EU, while, as said only a very low part of those who votes for that parties are pro-EU. In fact, only in one of those parties the majority of the supporters are pro-eu.

So, let me get this straight; people won't vote for eurosceptic parties in European parliamentary elections? Why, exactly?

Source (in Norwegian) for that most Icelenders are against the EU:
http://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/110812 ... -pa-island
65 percent are against, it says.

Hm. You really should have posted it from Google Translate.

Anyway, it seems legit. Not Brussels' fault though. The Icelanders should blame their own government.

[Keronians]

Google Translate is your friend.



EDIT: Seems legit. Iceland Gallup poll.

It isn't accurate though...

And again, why the hell is Norway concerned with Iceland?

It's only concerned when Iceland is anti-EU.

Why is it inaccurate?

[Polagin]

An imperalist Christian club.

[Keronians]

From an economic standpoint, its terrible. Having everyone using the same currency removes each individual country's responsibility to manage it's own debts... as we are seeing now, and it makes other countries that are more financially responsible pay for the excesses of others. It is unfair at it's core.
I am one for further decentralization of power, not further centralization of power. The more responsibility going to the most local level gives better results as to effective government.

It's stuff like this that gets you the mess you have in Spain, with the central government not being able to do anything at all.

Anyway, EMU =/= EU

The Euro was a terrible idea. Structurally, it requires a stronger central bank and a fund with the power of issuing Eurobonds.

[Ghaknee The Great]

The EU is a terrible idea. It will be the platform for the NWO. The one world government that will lead to the destruction of the planet.

[Keronians]

The EU is a terrible idea. It will be the platform for the NWO. The one world government that will lead to the destruction of the planet.

I don't know whether to or to ...

[Nightkill the Emperor]

I just instinctively don't like it. I think it'll lead to disaster, since Europe has too many conflicting interests. The only possible leader of the EU is Germany, or perhaps France as a distant second.

[New East Ireland]

It isn't accurate though...

And again, why the hell is Norway concerned with Iceland?

It's only concerned when Iceland is anti-EU.

Why is it inaccurate?

Because it doesn't translate things well.

I just instinctively don't like it. I think it'll lead to disaster, since Europe has too many conflicting interests. The only possible leader of the EU is Germany, or perhaps France as a distant second.

Germany has done pretty well for itself in recent years.

[Keronians]

I just instinctively don't like it. I think it'll lead to disaster, since Europe has too many conflicting interests. The only possible leader of the EU is Germany, or perhaps France as a distant second.

Military-wise, France and the UK. By far.

Economy-wise, Germany, by far.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

I just instinctively don't like it. I think it'll lead to disaster, since Europe has too many conflicting interests. The only possible leader of the EU is Germany, or perhaps France as a distant second.

Military-wise, France and the UK. By far.

Economy-wise, Germany, by far.

Meh.

Mark my words children, the EU won't work out.

[Alyakia]

Military-wise, France and the UK. By far.

Economy-wise, Germany, by far.

Meh.

Mark my words children, the EU won't work out.

Could you explain how it will lead to disaster without using scenarios that the EU literally exists entirely to prevent?

[Keronians]

Military-wise, France and the UK. By far.

Economy-wise, Germany, by far.

Meh.

Mark my words children, the EU won't work out.

But they're working out a free trade agreement with India!