Bachmann Flees Iowa Fair After Being Confronted by Gay Teen.

[Salandriagado]

Have you read the reports from those clinics? Torture, locking people in cages and forcing them to live in their own excrement popped up on the list, along with the more usual abuse.

Not to mention the psychological trauma even the 'mild' versions inflict on kids.

All of those camps are disgusting and SHOULD be shut down. But since they're in Utah and run by people who are friendly with the government of that state, they won't be until some major incident crops up that can't be quietly sidelined.

Most of them have been shut down. Still 8 left in the US and 2 outside of it though.

Obviously I'm not a big fan of these clinics, but could you perhaps provide a link to one of these reports detailing the specifics you have mentioned? I can easily comprehend mental trauma associated with it, and in all honesty that should be enough against these things, but I have not heard word of people living in excrement.

Here's the list from one specific lawsuit.

[Apollonesia]

Concentration camps? Give me a break.

These clinics are meant to help and change these individuals.

I don't approve of them, however, for various reasons.

Have you read the reports from those clinics? Torture, locking people in cages and forcing them to live in their own excrement popped up on the list, along with the more usual abuse.

Official reports? No, I have not. I've heard about what goes on in some of those clinics.

You do know that not all of these clinics are like concentration camps, right? They vary in... techniques.

I'm aware that some (very few, I assume) take a positive approach to helping those who've been sent there. Beating or scaring the gay out of people is in bad taste, me thinks.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Have you read the reports from those clinics? Torture, locking people in cages and forcing them to live in their own excrement popped up on the list, along with the more usual abuse.

Obviously I'm not a big fan of these clinics, but could you perhaps provide a link to one of these reports detailing the specifics you have mentioned? I can easily comprehend mental trauma associated with it, and in all honesty that should be enough against these things, but I have not heard word of people living in excrement.

http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=22096

That is, I believe, one of the best known camps. I seem to recall it being shut down at some point, but their website is still up.

EDIT:
NInja'd, damn

[Takaram]

Not to mention the psychological trauma even the 'mild' versions inflict on kids.

All of those camps are disgusting and SHOULD be shut down. But since they're in Utah and run by people who are friendly with the government of that state, they won't be until some major incident crops up that can't be quietly sidelined.

Most of them have been shut down. Still 8 left in the US and 2 outside of it though.

Obviously I'm not a big fan of these clinics, but could you perhaps provide a link to one of these reports detailing the specifics you have mentioned? I can easily comprehend mental trauma associated with it, and in all honesty that should be enough against these things, but I have not heard word of people living in excrement.

Here's the list from one specific lawsuit.

It makes Gitmo sound like fucking kindergarten.

[Takaram]

Have you read the reports from those clinics? Torture, locking people in cages and forcing them to live in their own excrement popped up on the list, along with the more usual abuse.

Official reports? No, I have not. I've heard about what goes on in some of those clinics.

You do know that not all of these clinics are like concentration camps, right? They vary in... techniques.

I'm aware that some (very few, I assume) take a positive approach to helping those who've been sent there. Beating or scaring the gay out of people is in bad taste, me thinks.

The very nature of what they're trying to do poses risks of creating mental health problems for the people involved.

[Herrebrugh]

Most of them have been shut down. Still 8 left in the US and 2 outside of it though.



Here's the list from one specific lawsuit.

It makes Gitmo sound like fucking kindergarten.

Uuuhm, yes. This is just this much better than a concentration camp. This is nightmare material, seriously.

[Soheran]

Not to defend "ex-gay therapy," which is not therapy, does not make people ex-gay, and is motivated by an indefensible and profoundly immoral position on homosexuality, but there is considerable variety in the methods it employs, so it's not really fair to attribute the harshest methods to the practice in its entirety.

[Salandriagado]

Not to defend "ex-gay therapy," which is not therapy, does not make people ex-gay, and is motivated by an indefensible and profoundly immoral position on homosexuality, but there is considerable variety in the methods it employs, so it's not really fair to attribute the harshest methods to the practice in its entirety.

When we're discussing Bachmann, who married someone responsible for the harshest methods, it is, however, entirely fair to accuse her of approving of said practices.

[Takaram]

Not to defend "ex-gay therapy," which is not therapy, does not make people ex-gay, and is motivated by an indefensible and profoundly immoral position on homosexuality, but there is considerable variety in the methods it employs, so it's not really fair to attribute the harshest methods to the practice in its entirety.

No, these methods are not utilized by all "ex-gay therapists", but the very nature of trying to force a change to someone so fundamentally rooted in a person as their sexuality carries with it the inherent risk of causing mental issues.

[Rhodmhire]

Here's the list from one specific lawsuit.

Christ.

[Apollonesia]

Not to defend "ex-gay therapy," which is not therapy, does not make people ex-gay, and is motivated by an indefensible and profoundly immoral position on homosexuality, but there is considerable variety in the methods it employs, so it's not really fair to attribute the harshest methods to the practice in its entirety.

When we're discussing Bachmann, who married someone responsible for the harshest methods, it is, however, entirely fair to accuse her of approving of said practices.

Nope. Sorry.

...but there is considerable variety in the methods it employs, so it's not really fair to attribute the harshest methods to the practice in its entirety.

Exactly what I just said.

The very thought of removing the gayness from gays seems to bother people, though.

[Takaram]

Not to defend "ex-gay therapy," which is not therapy, does not make people ex-gay, and is motivated by an indefensible and profoundly immoral position on homosexuality, but there is considerable variety in the methods it employs, so it's not really fair to attribute the harshest methods to the practice in its entirety.

Exactly what I just said.

The very thought of removing the gayness from gays seems to bother people, though.

For good reason. Can you remove the straightness from straight people?

[Soheran]

The very thought of removing the gayness from gays seems to bother people, though.

It ought to. It is wrong to treat something that is not intrinsically pathological as if it were intrinsically pathological. That is why "ex-gay therapy" is not therapy. It would not be even if it worked.

[Salandriagado]

When we're discussing Bachmann, who married someone responsible for the harshest methods, it is, however, entirely fair to accuse her of approving of said practices.

Nope. Sorry.

Why not? She comes out in support of her husband at every available opportunity, and he supports those methods (by virtue of using them). Therefore, she approves of them. QED.

[Soheran]

When we're discussing Bachmann, who married someone responsible for the harshest methods

Do we know this? (Honest question.)

[Outer Chaosmosis]

Why not? She comes out in support of her husband at every available opportunity, and he supports those methods (by virtue of using them). Therefore, she approves of them. QED.

Your logic is flawed. Using a method does not necessarily entail support of said method. Support for a person need not necessarily entail support for all of said person's actions or positions.

[Rhodmhire]

The very thought of removing the gayness from gays seems to bother people, though.

It should bother people. Even if it was is a choice rather than some biological hooblah, people still should not try so fervently to alter their choice. They should have the ability to be who they are if they want to be. And don't tell me that a significant amount of people who these clinics attempt to "treat" aren't pressured into doing it by family, friends, or fear of ostracism.

It's bothersome because it's not right. I wouldn't want my straightness expelled from me. I like women and I like their rear ends, I don't want to lose that so that some homosexual with an agenda can feel good about himself.

Flip that around and you've got the broad situation with these clinics.

[Bottle]

Why not? She comes out in support of her husband at every available opportunity, and he supports those methods (by virtue of using them). Therefore, she approves of them. QED.

Your logic is flawed. Using a method does not necessarily entail support of said method. Support for a person need not necessarily entail support for all of said person's actions or positions.

Yeah, I mean, just because she openly and freely says all the time that her husband is the boss of her and she submits to him in all things, that doesn't mean we should believe that her husband's beliefs on homosexuality would have any impact on her politically.

Right? Cause that's how logic works?

[Outer Chaosmosis]

It ought to. It is wrong to treat something that is not intrinsically pathological as if it were intrinsically pathological. That is why "ex-gay therapy" is not therapy. It would not be even if it worked.

"Intrinsically pathological?" There is nothing intrinsic about pathology. It is, necessarily, contingent. Nowhere is this more evident than in discussions of so-called psychopathologies.

[Apollonesia]

Exactly what I just said.

The very thought of removing the gayness from gays seems to bother people, though.

For good reason.

Of course. It's perfectly understandable to be bothered by the mission of gay clinics. I am.

[Outer Chaosmosis]

Yeah, I mean, just because she openly and freely says all the time that her husband is the boss of her and she submits to him in all things, that doesn't mean we should believe that her husband's beliefs on homosexuality would have any impact on her politically.

Non sequitur. The question at issue is what the woman in question supports, and, specifically, whether she supports certain methods of "treating" homosexuality. General support for (or, if you prefer, submission to) her husband does not necessarily entail support for his approach to this matter (if, indeed, his approach is what people here say it is).

Right? Cause that's how logic works?

Indeed.

[Rhodmhire]

When we're discussing Bachmann, who married someone responsible for the harshest methods

Do we know this? (Honest question.)

I'm pretty sure her husband, Marcus Bachmann, does play a significant role in at least some of these clinics.

If that is the case, it wouldn't be a terrible leap of logic to say that Michelle approves of them, allowing her husband to continue running them, or partaking in their practices, without intervention.

Her anti-gay agenda also adds to that in some way.

Try this, apparently he runs Bachmann & Associates, a Christian marriage counseling clinic, with his wife. The main method, apparently, was prayer, in this case.

So I actually concur with you that, no, they are not using the extreme methods. At least, we don't know that they are. If they are, they are doing a hell of a good job of keeping them clandestine.

[The Anti-Cosmic Gods]

God, it takes a lot to get to me. Its real hard to make me cringe, feel uncomfortable or anything resembling moral revulsion- but those camps just hit a nerve. Fuckin' Christians.

[Outer Chaosmosis]

God, it takes a lot to get to me. Its real hard to make me cringe, feel uncomfortable or anything resembling moral revulsion- but those camps just hit a nerve.

Clearly, then, it does not take all that much to get to you.

[Apollonesia]

.