Worst Health Care system in the world

[Maurepas]

Gotta go with other, cause Imll put Five bucks on Somalia or Zimbabwe, without question...

[Moreau Catholic High]

Nope, no such thing exists.

Society: "a body of individuals of a species, generally seen as a community or group, that is outlined by the bounds of functional interdependence, comprising also possible characters or conditions such as cultural identity, social solidarity, or eusociality."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society

Your family can be considered a small society. Your neighborhood is made up of a collection of families. The city is made up of a collection of neighborhoods. And so on and so forth. The collective of humanity working towards the greater good is what has allowed us to reach our modern standard of living, and yet you deny the very existence of this collective.

Do you believe that the only level of interaction that exists is the individual one? I really want to know this.

I am no one's slave. I see no moral justification for arguing that I have an obligation to provide for another--in other words, for me being a slave to my fellow man. I fail to see how that could be described as anything but slavery!

You are the one who wishes to enslave men, not I.

And here is the attitude that disgusts me so much. You value your own property over another person's life. You would rather see people starve to death in the street, than part with a single cent of your precious money. As a human being, as a social creature, you have an obligation to provide for those who are less fortunate than you by parting with what you have. This is not slavery. This is basic altruism, and it is necessary for the survival of any species that possesses any sort of social interaction.

[CanuckHeaven]

Those of you voting for America over Cuba need a serious reality check. The Cuban health care system isn't exactly what you see in the movie sicko...

NSFW, LINK TO IMAGES DEPICTING CUBA'S "WORLD CLASS" HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IN ALL ITS GORY DETAIL

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

Your link is spoiled

[Neu Leonstein]

I'd say Somalia, or Congo or some other civil-war torn African country.

But in all seriousness, suck it up. The fact of the matter is, you live in something called society. While you are a member of society, you are expected to contribute to the general welfare of the group, and not just promote yourself at all costs.

Why?

You are expected to sacrifice some of your gain for the good of those who cannot support themselves, because the last time I checked, taking care of others ranked higher than gaining material goods on the list of priorities of humanity as a species.

So? For me to care about the priorities of humanity as a species (and this is assuming the species wouldn't have an interest in a more Darwinian "let the weak die" philosophy), first you must convince me that my own priorities need to be put to the side.

Here's the problem I have with pure laissez-faire capitalists like you. You value your own money, (which is essentially a piece of paper with an arbitrary value assigned to it), over the lives and well being of others.

That's not what money is. Money is just a means of exchange, what capitalists like about it is that it serves as a neat medium in which to store one's productive capacity, and it only has value because of that capacity. To the extent that every human being alive lives because of someone's productive capacity, that makes money a form of the very essence that allows us to exist on earth.

You would rather let people starve, or go without essential services, than give up a 1/100th of a piece of random paper. You make the completely idiotic and unfounded the claim that the free market is a magical force for good that can defy the laws of reality. You refuse to accept that people who need help should have it given to them, and simplify their suffering down to "laziness".

It's funny that you should talk about laws of reality and the market breaking them. Usually it's those who claim they can redistribute to make everything better who find reality against them.

But here's one for the record: I don't like other people suffering. I usually help those around me, and I feel bad when I don't. I give to charity. And I'm still against compulsion as a means to make others better off, I'm against unemployment benefits and would strip the government down to a bare minimum, with most taxes being charged on a 'user pays' system. That's because I don't like to see suffering, but I hold that the majority of the world's suffering is the result of people forcing other people to do things against their will. The end doesn't justify the means, as they say.

So I'm not saying we shouldn't help others. I think we should. But I'm saying we don't have to.

So quit attacking strawmen.

[New Mitanni]

I'm just angered by this non stop US hating. Almost every other thread on this site is directly or indirectly aimed at criticizing of the USA. When I went onto this thread I knew it was a spin off of the other US healthcare thread. It just angered me to see people so blindly hateful of the US that they would vote it worse in healthcare than every other nation in the world, rampant stupidity angers me Rhodmhire.

It angers me too, EZ, as does blatant Americaphobia, both of which are characteristic of much of what's posted on this board. However, as a friendly observation, it's best to attack the post rather than the poster (and also what the NSG rules call for).

You're never going to change the minds of the hate-America crowd here no matter what you say. They invariably dismiss anything they don't agree with as poor argumentation at the least, and they all talk to each other and congratulate each other on how brilliant their own arguments are. Don't waste too much of your time on them.

[Rolling squid]

And here is the attitude that disgusts me so much. You value your own property over another person's life. You would rather see people starve to death in the street, than part with a single cent of your precious money hunk of matter that society has determined is worth something. As a human being, as a social creature, you have an obligation to provide for those who are less fortunate than you by parting with what you have. This is not slavery. This is basic altruism, and it is necessary for the survival of any species that possesses any sort of social interaction.

Fixed that for you, and managed to sink Bluth's argument at the same time. And to further rebut his argument, I will pose one more question: Assuming that your Duke Energy was providing service that you were not happy with, could you switch to a competitor? If you did, would that competitor build new utility poles and run new wire? If the answer to either of these questions is no, then you rely on some form of entity that makes you participate. Just like your favorite bogyman, the government. Are you against power monopolies as well, for violating the fundamental rights of man, or something like that?

[Buxtahatche]

The worst one is where:
1.) the government charges me unknowable amounts of taxes
2.) tells me who I can see
3.) when I can see them
4.) what conditions are 'emergent' and what isn't
and
5.) controls any kind of 'waiting list' for mundane health care.


Seeing as ALL socialized medical systems have these features, I will stick with health care that requires me to pay when I need it, for what I need ONLY, and enables me to get whatever kind of care I damn well feel I need.

Anything else infringes on my rights.

[Eugene Zolo]

Those of you voting for America over Cuba need a serious reality check. The Cuban health care system isn't exactly what you see in the movie sicko...

NSFW, LINK TO IMAGES DEPICTING CUBA'S "WORLD CLASS" HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IN ALL ITS GORY DETAIL

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

Do you have link for those voting America worse than every nation in the world? They need some proof that nations like the Sudan don't have better healthcare than the US.

[Rolling squid]

You're never going to change the minds of the hate-America crowd here no matter what you say. They invariably dismiss anything they don't agree with as poor argumentation at the least, and they all talk to each other and congratulate each other on how brilliant their own arguments are. Don't waste too much of your time on them.

And you're not going to chance their mind either. The fact is, 99.9% of debate is rhetoric. The point isn't to change your opponents mind, it's to have fun, and convince any bystanders that you are right.

[New Mitanni]

The worst one is where:
1.) the government charges me unknowable amounts of taxes
2.) tells me who I can see
3.) when I can see them
4.) what conditions are 'emergent' and what isn't
and
5.) controls any kind of 'waiting list' for mundane health care.


Seeing as ALL socialized medical systems have these features, I will stick with health care that requires me to pay when I need it, for what I need ONLY, and enables me to get whatever kind of care I damn well feel I need.

Anything else infringes on my rights.

Couldn't have put it better.

Socialized medicine is precisely where Barack Hussein Obama wants to drag this country, regardless of the wishes of the 85% of Americans who are happy with their present health care. He's on record as advocating single-payer, and nothing he says now changes that fact. When he says that the so-called government "option" doesn't threaten your private health insurance, he is lying.

[Surote]

The worst one is where:
1.) the government charges me unknowable amounts of taxes
2.) tells me who I can see
3.) when I can see them
4.) what conditions are 'emergent' and what isn't
and
5.) controls any kind of 'waiting list' for mundane health care.


Seeing as ALL socialized medical systems have these features, I will stick with health care that requires me to pay when I need it, for what I need ONLY, and enables me to get whatever kind of care I damn well feel I need.

Anything else infringes on my rights.

The only people that hate this bill are obama haters and uninsured(That don't know what your talking about) and really do you believe in idiots like sarah palin,rush limbaugh and john boehner It's just all politics I'm going to give ya'll some advice research the bill and other healthcare areas trust me it will be better then listening to politicians.

[Moreau Catholic High]

It's funny that you should talk about laws of reality and the market breaking them. Usually it's those who claim they can redistribute to make everything better who find reality against them.

But here's one for the record: I don't like other people suffering. I usually help those around me, and I feel bad when I don't. I give to charity. And I'm still against compulsion as a means to make others better off, I'm against unemployment benefits and would strip the government down to a bare minimum, with most taxes being charged on a 'user pays' system. That's because I don't like to see suffering, but I hold that the majority of the world's suffering is the result of people forcing other people to do things against their will. The end doesn't justify the means, as they say.

I suppose I may have spoken poorly, but my intention was to disparage those who believed that the free market could fix everything, if only we would stop regulating it and let it.

Here is where we disagree. I feel that because human life is worth more than an individual's property, an individual has an obligation to give up something that is worth less for something that is worth more. To deny someone else life in order to preserve for yourself an artificial construct of society seems rather short sighted and despicable.

[New Mitanni]

You're never going to change the minds of the hate-America crowd here no matter what you say. They invariably dismiss anything they don't agree with as poor argumentation at the least, and they all talk to each other and congratulate each other on how brilliant their own arguments are. Don't waste too much of your time on them.

And you're not going to chance their mind either. The fact is, 99.9% of debate is rhetoric. The point isn't to change your opponents mind, it's to have fun, and convince any bystanders that you are right.

I fully realize that. I don't even want to change their minds. They're not worth the effort.

[Eugene Zolo]

You're never going to change the minds of the hate-America crowd here no matter what you say. They invariably dismiss anything they don't agree with as poor argumentation at the least, and they all talk to each other and congratulate each other on how brilliant their own arguments are. Don't waste too much of your time on them.

You're absolutely right. And you beat me to it in respect to talking about how they ''talk to each other and congratulate each other on how brilliant their own arguments are.'' Not only not only do they stroke each others cocks (what you said but in crude terms), but many times they discuss how they hope people with differing opinions won't interrupt their cock stroking sessions.

[Rolling squid]

Couldn't have put it better.

Socialized medicine is precisely where Barack Hussein Obama wants to drag this country, regardless of the wishes of the 85% of Americans who are happy with their present health care. He's on record as advocating single-payer, and nothing he says now changes that fact. When he says that the so-called government "option" doesn't threaten your private health insurance, he is lying.

One question: What's wrong with providing another option to the people? If a public option is offered and doesn't work, then according to the principles of the free marker, it will fail. If a public option if offered and works better than anything a private corporation can offer, then it succeeds. Either way, the people get the best health care possible.

[Dakini]

The worst one is where:
1.) the government charges me unknowable amounts of taxes
2.) tells me who I can see
3.) when I can see them
4.) what conditions are 'emergent' and what isn't
and
5.) controls any kind of 'waiting list' for mundane health care.


Seeing as ALL socialized medical systems have these features, I will stick with health care that requires me to pay when I need it, for what I need ONLY, and enables me to get whatever kind of care I damn well feel I need.

Anything else infringes on my rights.

The government doesn't tell me which doctors I can see. I can pick and choose any doctor I want. I can also show up at the emergency room for really anything, though I probably won't be seen for several hours if I come in with a paper cut. Walk in clinics for minor issues are a better bet because this is what they're supposed to deal with...

...and let's not even get to the people I know in the US who have had long emergency room waits.

[Rolling squid]

You're never going to change the minds of the hate-America crowd here no matter what you say. They invariably dismiss anything they don't agree with as poor argumentation at the least, and they all talk to each other and congratulate each other on how brilliant their own arguments are. Don't waste too much of your time on them.

And you're not going to chance their mind either. The fact is, 99.9% of debate is rhetoric. The point isn't to change your opponents mind, it's to have fun, and convince any bystanders that you are right.

I fully realize that. I don't even want to change their minds. They're not worth the effort.

Then why do you still come to this forum?

[Cameroi]

considering as how there are more then 200 sovereign nations of the face of the planet, and the u.s is only ranked 37, it stands to reason that there must be more then a hundred that are worse.

i don't thing that gives america much of an excuse though, considering as how it is the most influential and militarily powerful among them, and somewhere near the most well of by some measure, possibly several.

actually our transportation is pretty crappy too, unless you indenture yourself for a car of some kind, even then some times and places, depending on how one measures such things.

and america is not leading the world in generosity by percentage of gnp, whether or not it does so by sheer volume, nor by cleanness of energy sources, nor several other things.

but we are, or were, in the top 10 percentile of more different things then any one other nation, or, again, at least once upon a time we were.

a lot of things have been allowed to go down hill since people got conned into that greed is good nonsense and really started expecting to get something out of it, other then asceticism, which it seems to me, is pretty much all that most people on average have. pretty much everyone other then a very small circle of insiders, for that matter.

so it's really no surprise that we're #37. but it is a national shame.
and one that legislation could mostly cure.
and which isn't likely to be, without single payer, public option,
or some combination of their equivalents.

(and no, i'm sorry, but we don't have to "hate" america, for those of us who live here, to stop lying to ourselves about it either)

[Yenke-Bin]

What about Somalia? Do they even have a system?

[New Mitanni]

The only people that hate this bill are obama haters and uninsured(That don't know what your talking about) and really do you believe in idiots like sarah palin,rush limbaugh and john boehner

If I were you, I'd be careful about slinging the "idiot" label around too freely. I'd bet the farm that all three of the targets of your insolence have forgotten more than you've ever learned.

It's just all politics I'm going to give ya'll some advice research the bill and other healthcare areas trust me it will be better then listening to politicians.

Trust me: a lot of us have "researched the bill." That's more than I can say for most of the Donkocrats in Congress who haven't bothered to read what they're supposed to vote on. And the more we read, the less we like the socialist monstrosity that is Obamacare.

[New Mitanni]

Then why do you still come to this forum?

Read the last part of his statement.

[Milks Empire]

the less we like the socialist monstrosity that is Obamacare.

Fact: Britain's Iron Lady, Margaret Thatcher, supported Britain's National Health Service. She was on par with Reagan in terms of the rest of her ideology. Think about that...

[Surote]

The only people that hate this bill are obama haters and uninsured(That don't know what your talking about) and really do you believe in idiots like sarah palin,rush limbaugh and john boehner

If I were you, I'd be careful about slinging the "idiot" label around too freely. I'd bet the farm that all three of the targets of your insolence have forgotten more than you've ever learned.

It's just all politics I'm going to give ya'll some advice research the bill and other healthcare areas trust me it will be better then listening to politicians.

Trust me: a lot of us have "researched the bill." That's more than I can say for most of the Donkocrats in Congress who haven't bothered to read what they're supposed to vote on. And the more we read, the less we like the socialist monstrosity that is Obamacare.

The U.S. Is like a little African village when one person gets sick we all as a caring society need to pitch in and help(we should not let greed get in the way of that).

[New Mitanni]

One question: What's wrong with providing another option to the people? If a public option is offered and doesn't work, then according to the principles of the free marker, it will fail. If a public option if offered and works better than anything a private corporation can offer, then it succeeds. Either way, the people get the best health care possible.

What's wrong with it is it's the wrong "option" and it's not intended to be an "option," it's intended to be the first step in forcing all private insurers out of business and everyone into the government-run so-called "option."

A public "option" unfairly competes against private insurers. A government-run plan has no stock holders to answer to, no profit to make and no limit to the resources it can expend. It can sell at a loss (made up for by simply voting more money out of the taxpayers' pockets), thereby undercutting private insurers. In international trade that would be considered "dumping". It can give tax advantages to companies to get rid of their insurance benefits programs and thereby dump its employees into the so-called "option." The "principles of the free market" don't apply to government entities, since Congress can always give them more money no matter how lousy a job they do--just look at the Post Office, Amtrak, Medicare and Fanny Mae, to name but a few examples.

The only legitimate way to increase competition is to remove obstacles to private insurers competing and private individuals buying what they determine meets their needs. That includes allowing interstate sales of insurance policies, giving private individuals tax credits for insurance costs so they can buy insurance with pre-tax dollars like employers do, and allowing medical expense savings accounts. And more importantly than anything else, TORT REFORM is needed to reduce the need for defensive medicine and its resultant unnecessary tests, procedures and expenditures.

Only free enterprise will improve health care and health insurance. Government interference, and its ultimate goal of government control, will only result in poorer quality, longer lines and more dead senior citizens.

[Dakini]

Only free enterprise will improve health care and health insurance. Government interference, and its ultimate goal of government control, will only result in poorer quality, longer lines and more dead senior citizens.

Except that these aren't really problems in other countries which have public health care.