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Worst Health Care system in the world

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Worst Health Care system in the world

USA
32
31%
Cuba
1
1%
Europe
8
8%
Antarctica
35
34%
Other
28
27%
 
Total votes : 104

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CanuckHeaven
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Posts: 578
Founded: Feb 12, 2004
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby CanuckHeaven » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:09 pm

Dakini wrote:
Buxtahatche wrote:The worst one is where:
1.) the government charges me unknowable amounts of taxes
2.) tells me who I can see
3.) when I can see them
4.) what conditions are 'emergent' and what isn't
and
5.) controls any kind of 'waiting list' for mundane health care.


Seeing as ALL socialized medical systems have these features, I will stick with health care that requires me to pay when I need it, for what I need ONLY, and enables me to get whatever kind of care I damn well feel I need.

Anything else infringes on my rights. >:(

The government doesn't tell me which doctors I can see. I can pick and choose any doctor I want. I can also show up at the emergency room for really anything, though I probably won't be seen for several hours if I come in with a paper cut. Walk in clinics for minor issues are a better bet because this is what they're supposed to deal with...

...and let's not even get to the people I know in the US who have had long emergency room waits.

How about no emergency rooms to wait in even?

Dying for affordable healthcare — the uninsured speak

Lee has just opened an outpost of her clinic in the outlying neighbourhood of Quindaro, an area of boarded-up houses and deserted factories where work is hard to find and crack plentiful and a per capita income is $11,025. A third of the population is below the federally defined poverty line.

And yet the local health department has decided the only health centre in the area will be closed by the end of this year and moved 30 blocks west to a much more prosperous part of the city where income levels are five times higher. Before long, one of the poorest areas of Kansas – of America – will be left without a single doctor, with only Lee's voluntary services to fall back on.

The whole story is a sad indictment of the current US healthcare situation.

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Milks Empire
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21069
Founded: Aug 02, 2008
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Milks Empire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:11 pm

Dakini wrote:
New Mitanni wrote:Only free enterprise will improve health care and health insurance. Government interference, and its ultimate goal of government control, will only result in poorer quality, longer lines and more dead senior citizens.

Except that these aren't really problems in other countries which have public health care.

On top of which, too many people seem to forget the people under the American system that don't live to be senior citizens because of catastrophic health events that will wind up in the hands of the individuals' great-great-grandchildren that could have been stopped way earlier at a cost much lower but still unattainable by the average Joe.
Last edited by Milks Empire on Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CanuckHeaven
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Posts: 578
Founded: Feb 12, 2004
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby CanuckHeaven » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:26 pm

Rolling squid wrote:
One question: What's wrong with providing another option to the people? If a public option is offered and doesn't work, then according to the principles of the free marker, it will fail. If a public option if offered and works better than anything a private corporation can offer, then it succeeds. Either way, the people get the best health care possible.


New Mitanni wrote:What's wrong with it is it's the wrong "option" and it's not intended to be an "option," it's intended to be the first step in forcing all private insurers out of business and everyone into the government-run so-called "option."

"forcing all private insurers out of business" is a huge step forward :)

New Mitanni wrote:A public "option" unfairly competes against private insurers.

Excellent!!

New Mitanni wrote:A government-run plan has no stock holders to answer to, no profit to make and no limit to the resources it can expend.

The key to the above statement is....."no stock holders to answer to, no profit to make".

New Mitanni wrote:It can sell at a loss (made up for by simply voting more money out of the taxpayers' pockets), thereby undercutting private insurers.

By "selling at a loss" as you put it, will in fact save the Government a lot of money when the "private insurers" quit getting rich.

New Mitanni wrote:In international trade that would be considered "dumping". It can give tax advantages to companies to get rid of their insurance benefits programs and thereby dump its employees into the so-called "option."

Hurray for an option that will in the long run be beneficial to Americans on the whole.


New Mitanni wrote:The "principles of the free market" don't apply to government entities, since Congress can always give them more money no matter how lousy a job they do--just look at the Post Office, Amtrak, Medicare and Fanny Mae, to name but a few examples.

Right now, the Government and the private insurers are already failing 45 Million Americans and even more people when insurance companies fail to pony up because of "pre-existing conditions".

New Mitanni wrote:The only legitimate way to increase competition is to remove obstacles to private insurers competing and private individuals buying what they determine meets their needs.

1 in 6 "private individuals" cannot afford to buy American healthcare.

New Mitanni wrote:Only free enterprise will improve health care and health insurance.

Bullshit!! :lol2:

New Mitanni wrote:Government interference, and its ultimate goal of government control, will only result in poorer quality, longer lines and more dead senior citizens.

More bullshit!! :rofl:
Last edited by CanuckHeaven on Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Milks Empire
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Posts: 21069
Founded: Aug 02, 2008
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Milks Empire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:33 pm

CanuckHeaven wrote:
New Mitanni wrote:Only free enterprise will improve health care and health insurance.

Bullshit!! :lol2:

New Mitanni wrote:Government interference, and its ultimate goal of government control, will only result in poorer quality, longer lines and more dead senior citizens.

More bullshit!! :rofl:

Can we see some evidence to back up your assertions, CH?

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Kynchile
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Posts: 207
Founded: Aug 07, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Kynchile » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:38 pm

In all reality, other should be winning by a landslide.

The US has one of the best systems. Expensive but very high tech and cutting edge. If you took car wrecks and homocides out of the equation then Americans live much longer, and have the highest survivability rates among cancer patients. The weakness of the sytem is that you will get billed for it, if one considers that a weakness.

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Euroslavia
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Posts: 7781
Founded: Antiquity
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Euroslavia » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:39 pm

Hairless Kitten II wrote:
Vetalia wrote:Hmm, considering the four choices are two countries, a continent, and everybody else...


I'm sorry I forgot to add Antarctica.



Added. :p
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BRAVE ENOUGH

BRAVE ENOUGH

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Maurepas
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36403
Founded: Apr 17, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Maurepas » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:39 pm

Euroslavia wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:
Vetalia wrote:Hmm, considering the four choices are two countries, a continent, and everybody else...


I'm sorry I forgot to add Antarctica.



Added. :p

And I voted for it, :lol2:

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Milks Empire
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Posts: 21069
Founded: Aug 02, 2008
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Milks Empire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:40 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Euroslavia wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:I'm sorry I forgot to add Antarctica.

Added. :p

And I voted for it, :lol2:

I second that vote. Anything more than the sniffles and you better pray that it's not winter. :lol2:

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Rhodmhire
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Posts: 17421
Founded: Jun 05, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Rhodmhire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:42 pm

Euroslavia wrote:
Hairless Kitten II wrote:
Vetalia wrote:Hmm, considering the four choices are two countries, a continent, and everybody else...


I'm sorry I forgot to add Antarctica.



Added. :p


Lack of Antartica gone, finally.

This thread's fail level is lowered.
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Rhodmhire
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Posts: 17421
Founded: Jun 05, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Rhodmhire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:45 pm

CanuckHeaven wrote:
New Mitanni wrote:The only legitimate way to increase competition is to remove obstacles to private insurers competing and private individuals buying what they determine meets their needs.

1 in 6 "private individuals" cannot afford to buy American healthcare.

New Mitanni wrote:Only free enterprise will improve health care and health insurance.

Bullshit!! :lol2:

New Mitanni wrote:Government interference, and its ultimate goal of government control, will only result in poorer quality, longer lines and more dead senior citizens.

More bullshit!! :rofl:


Ah yes, those against the reform state one thing without backing up claims, those for it state another thing based off the claims of those in opposition to the reform, and fail to back their claims.

I love this debate. It makes me feel better about myself that I choose to take little serious part in it.
Part of me grew up here. But part of growing up is leaving parts of ourselves behind.

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Liechtenstopia
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Apr 18, 2008
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Liechtenstopia » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:51 pm

New Mitanni wrote:A government-run plan has no stock holders to answer to

You're right about that. They're only accountable to popular elections every two years.

can't yield a profit

There are some things in life that should not turn a profit, first and foremost being the health and welfare of a nation's citizens.

just look at the Post Office

Name a private company that can send a letter to someone across the continent for only 44 cents.

The only legitimate way to increase competition is to remove obstacles to private insurers competing and private individuals buying what they determine meets their needs.

It's pretty difficult to "determine what meets your needs" when you can't afford anything.

will only result in more dead senior citizens.

Except that nations with government-run healthcare actually have longer life expectancies than the United States. Canada in particular has a life expectancy of 81 compared to the U.S. average of 78.
Last edited by Liechtenstopia on Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kynchile
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Posts: 207
Founded: Aug 07, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Kynchile » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:08 pm

Liechtenstopia wrote:Except that nations with government-run healthcare actually have longer life expectancies than the United States. Canada in particular has a life expectancy of 81 compared to the U.S. average of 78.

The US is a far more dangerous place then Canada. If the automobile crash fatalities and homocides were reflected then the life expectncy in the US would be the worlds highest. Even with our high rate of auto fatalities the US life expectancy is moving upwards recently. Accidents and murders should be factored out to get a realistic number.

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CanuckHeaven
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Posts: 578
Founded: Feb 12, 2004
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby CanuckHeaven » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:09 pm

Milks Empire wrote:
CanuckHeaven wrote:
New Mitanni wrote:Only free enterprise will improve health care and health insurance.

Bullshit!! :lol2:

New Mitanni wrote:Government interference, and its ultimate goal of government control, will only result in poorer quality, longer lines and more dead senior citizens.

More bullshit!! :rofl:

Can we see some evidence to back up your assertions, CH?

I already posted one example and there is many more right here.

This is also a good place to weigh the options:

Single-Payer National Health Insurance

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Tunizcha
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Posts: 4174
Founded: Mar 23, 2008
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Tunizcha » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:12 pm

Kynchile wrote:In all reality, other should be winning by a landslide.

The US has one of the best systems. Expensive but very high tech and cutting edge. If you took car wrecks and homocides out of the equation then Americans live much longer, and have the highest survivability rates among cancer patients. The weakness of the sytem is that you will get billed for it, if one considers that a weakness.


Americans live much longer? According to the World Health Organization, we rank 24th in life expectancy, below Israel. We rank 72nd on the level of health, right below Argentina. To put this in perspective, Iran is 58th. On the overall performance of the system, it ranks 37th. And how much do we spend on our system? More per capita than every other nation on the face of the Earth.
Compare this to France, which is ranked first for their performance, ranked fourth for expenditures, and ranked 3rd in life expectancy.

But let's compare America to someone a little closer to home, Canada. Canada ranks 30th on the overall performance, not too far above ours. However, it ranks 12th in life expectancy, quite a bit above us. It ranks 35th on the level of health, which is much, much better than ours. What ranking is it for expenditures? 10th.
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Milks Empire
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Founded: Aug 02, 2008
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Milks Empire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:14 pm

CanuckHeaven wrote:I already posted one example and there is many more right here.
This is also a good place to weigh the options:
Single-Payer National Health Insurance

I've said this to conservatives that pull this, and now I'll say it to you: It is not our job to dig up sources that support your argument, which is all those links allow for. That is unequivocally your job.

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Kynchile
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Founded: Aug 07, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Kynchile » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:15 pm

Tunizcha wrote:
Kynchile wrote:In all reality, other should be winning by a landslide.

The US has one of the best systems. Expensive but very high tech and cutting edge. If you took car wrecks and homocides out of the equation then Americans live much longer, and have the highest survivability rates among cancer patients. The weakness of the sytem is that you will get billed for it, if one considers that a weakness.


Americans live much longer? According to the World Health Organization, we rank 24th in life expectancy, below Israel. We rank 72nd on the level of health, right below Argentina. To put this in perspective, Iran is 58th. On the overall performance of the system, it ranks 37th. And how much do we spend on our system? More per capita than every other nation on the face of the Earth.
Compare this to France, which is ranked first for their performance, ranked fourth for expenditures, and ranked 3rd in life expectancy.

But let's compare America to someone a little closer to home, Canada. Canada ranks 30th on the overall performance, not too far above ours. However, it ranks 12th in life expectancy, quite a bit above us. It ranks 35th on the level of health, which is much, much better than ours. What ranking is it for expenditures? 10th.

The US is a far more dangerous place then Canada. If the automobile crash fatalities and homocides were reflected then the life expectncy in the US would be the worlds highest. Even with our high rate of auto fatalities the US life expectancy is moving upwards recently. Accidents and murders should be factored out to get a realistic number.

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Milks Empire
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Milks Empire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:17 pm

Kynchile wrote:The US is a far more dangerous place then Canada. If the automobile crash fatalities and homocides were reflected then the life expectncy in the US would be the worlds highest. Even with our high rate of auto fatalities the US life expectancy is moving upwards recently. Accidents and murders should be factored out to get a realistic number.

And you need to show that this is the case. So come on. Let's see some sources that back you up.

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Rhodmhire
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Founded: Jun 05, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Rhodmhire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:20 pm

CanuckHeaven wrote:I already posted one example and there is many more right here.


Google, really? You want me to go through 26,000,000 links?

Obviously you're incapable of explaining it to me yourself, so I won't even bother.
Last edited by Rhodmhire on Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The South Islands
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Founded: Apr 02, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby The South Islands » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:20 pm

Milks Empire wrote:
Kynchile wrote:The US is a far more dangerous place then Canada. If the automobile crash fatalities and homocides were reflected then the life expectncy in the US would be the worlds highest. Even with our high rate of auto fatalities the US life expectancy is moving upwards recently. Accidents and murders should be factored out to get a realistic number.

And you need to show that this is the case. So come on. Let's see some sources that back you up.

The number of murders in the US, both absolute and per capita, are much higher than Canada or really any other developed nation. Although I'm very skeptical as to murder/auto fatalities having a substantial impact on life expectancy for the population.

You may now continue your previous argument.
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Rhodmhire
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Founded: Jun 05, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Rhodmhire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:21 pm

Milks Empire wrote:
Kynchile wrote:The US is a far more dangerous place then Canada. If the automobile crash fatalities and homocides were reflected then the life expectncy in the US would be the worlds highest. Even with our high rate of auto fatalities the US life expectancy is moving upwards recently. Accidents and murders should be factored out to get a realistic number.

And you need to show that this is the case. So come on. Let's see some sources that back you up.


I bet $10 he gives us nothing more than a link.
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Alborio
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Founded: Dec 26, 2006
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Alborio » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:21 pm

Why does everyone keep saying the USA is the worst? We're what 37th? By the WHO list Myanmar bottoms out the list. Seeing as everyone cites WHO as an argument for Universal Health Care it's obviously a fairly legit source many of you seem to be convinetly ignoring.

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Milks Empire
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Founded: Aug 02, 2008
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Milks Empire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:22 pm

The South Islands wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:
Kynchile wrote:The US is a far more dangerous place then Canada. If the automobile crash fatalities and homocides were reflected then the life expectncy in the US would be the worlds highest. Even with our high rate of auto fatalities the US life expectancy is moving upwards recently. Accidents and murders should be factored out to get a realistic number.

And you need to show that this is the case. So come on. Let's see some sources that back you up.

The number of murders in the US, both absolute and per capita, are much higher than Canada or really any other developed nation. Although I'm very skeptical as to murder/auto fatalities having a substantial impact on life expectancy for the population.

You may now continue your previous argument.

And evidence for what I bolded in your post is what I'm looking for from Kynchile.

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Maurepas
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Founded: Apr 17, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Maurepas » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:22 pm

Rhodmhire wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:
Kynchile wrote:The US is a far more dangerous place then Canada. If the automobile crash fatalities and homocides were reflected then the life expectncy in the US would be the worlds highest. Even with our high rate of auto fatalities the US life expectancy is moving upwards recently. Accidents and murders should be factored out to get a realistic number.

And you need to show that this is the case. So come on. Let's see some sources that back you up.


I bet $10 he gives us nothing more than a link.

If anything at all, I find it is more and more common as of late, :(

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Rhodmhire
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Founded: Jun 05, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Rhodmhire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:22 pm

Alborio wrote:Why does everyone keep saying the USA is the worst? We're what 37th? By the WHO list Myanmar bottoms out the list. Seeing as everyone cites WHO as an argument for Universal Health Care it's obviously a fairly legit source many of you seem to be convinetly ignoring.


That's in support of my theory that this whole argument is just butting heads of two major ignorant standpoints.
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Rhodmhire
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Posts: 17421
Founded: Jun 05, 2009
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Re: Worst Health Care system in the world

Postby Rhodmhire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:23 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Rhodmhire wrote:I bet $10 he gives us nothing more than a link.

If anything at all, I find it is more and more common as of late, :(


...Make it $50. Because I agree.
Part of me grew up here. But part of growing up is leaving parts of ourselves behind.

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