Sustainable Fish

[Sociobiology]

given how few fish are left, how should we harvest fish?

should we farm everything, give up on fish or just harvest to extinction.
I want everything farmed, or vat grown, but how do you think we should do it.



no poll yet maybe after I hear a few more ideas.
source is here
http://www2.fisheries.com/archive/members/dpauly/journalarticles/2003/hundredyeardeclinenorthatlanticfishes.pdf

[Oterro]

Grabs lots of them for farming until we've got fuck buckets, try and reintroduce them to the wild.

I'm not fond of fish anyway.

[Hassett]

I've always been a fan of farming.

[Hassett]

Double post, my bad

[Pag-Aalisa]

We should really investigate what impacts we are having.

There's also more factors than straight mass-fishing affecting the fish populations. Unregulated agricultural waste sucks the oxygen out of the water in river deltas, and other sorts of pollution also impact ocean life.

Maybe something like a moratorium on ocean fishing by companies for a year or two could help also.

[Sovereign Spirits]

Scarcer fish coupled with equal or greater demand begets higher cost per fish, thus higher price, thus less people being able to afford it, thus less people eating fish, thus less demand for fish, thus a decrease in the fishing industry, thus a reprieve for the fish to repopulate. This is without external intervention.

How expensive are fish these days? Who is involved in the pricing? What is really happening to the world's fish? That's what I want to know.

[Tatec]

I doubt the validity of that map.

[Borneo States]

The issue with dwindling numbers of fish is not only influenced by the simple issue of over fishing. The constant pollution of the sea and the destruction of natural habitats have far more damaging consequences that we can even imagine.

That being said, getting countries to agree into adopting a common framework or policy in regards to commercial fishing could be an uphill task even before we go onto what sort of protection or conservation we have in mind. The ban of whaling is an example of how countries like Japan and Australia see these issues.

I would hope to see fishes being around for the possible future. Its the only thing that deters dolphins from intentionally targeting people for their source of protein. God knows we humans are woefully unprepared to face that.

Back home, the "tagal" system which has been adopted by a few villages has yielded some success in preserving the number of fresh water fishes in rivers. Villagers would refrain from fishing the rivers for the entire year and only harvest the fishes for a week.

While genetics and gene engineering may bring forth a genetically modified fish that economically feasible, sustaining what we have left and preserving habitats should be the current goal for all of us.

[Pag-Aalisa]

I would hope to see fishes being around for the possible future. Its the only thing that deters dolphins from intentionally targeting people for their source of protein. God knows we humans are woefully unprepared to face that.

I lol'd.

What country is "back home"?

[Sociobiology]

Scarcer fish coupled with equal or greater demand begets higher cost per fish, thus higher price, thus less people being able to afford it, thus less people eating fish, thus less demand for fish, thus a decrease in the fishing industry, thus a reprieve for the fish to repopulate. This is without external intervention.

How expensive are fish these days? Who is involved in the pricing? What is really happening to the world's fish? That's what I want to know.

well the image answered the last one, as price rises the incentive for fishermen actually increases as people still buy fish at high prices, bluefin tuna is selling at $520 a pound and sales are expanding as price rises, because the consumer will still pay it.
the problem with the supply demand argument is it only works if the peak supply is higher than the peak possible demand, if it is not then the market will destroy supply, and self destruct.

[Sociobiology]

I doubt the validity of that map.

because you just don't like it or because you have counter evidence.
the source in case it is to small to read is here http://www2.fisheries.com/archive/members/dpauly/journalarticles/2003/hundredyeardeclinenorthatlanticfishes.pdf

[Borneo States]

I would hope to see fishes being around for the possible future. Its the only thing that deters dolphins from intentionally targeting people for their source of protein. God knows we humans are woefully unprepared to face that.

I lol'd.

What country is "back home"?

Malaysia, the state of Sabah to be exact.

[Pope Joan]

Mainers say we should fire on the Japanese.

Those fish eaters are taking over the Atlantic banks.

[Moral Libertarians]

Scarcer fish coupled with equal or greater demand begets higher cost per fish, thus higher price, thus less people being able to afford it, thus less people eating fish, thus less demand for fish, thus a decrease in the fishing industry, thus a reprieve for the fish to repopulate. This is without external intervention.

How expensive are fish these days? Who is involved in the pricing? What is really happening to the world's fish? That's what I want to know.

well the image answered the last one, as price rises the incentive for fishermen actually increases as people still buy fish at high prices, bluefin tuna is selling at $520 a pound and sales are expanding as price rises, because the consumer will still pay it.
the problem with the supply demand argument is it only works if the peak supply is higher than the peak possible demand, if it is not then the market will destroy supply, and self destruct.

Not quite. Regardless of how high the demand goes, it's line will always intersect supply's on the standard demand-supply chart. I'm guessing that the demand fish is highly price elastic initially, based on what you said about bluefin; even if it is, all that means is that an increase in price will drive a much bigger % increase in supply, until stocks of fish begin to decrease so quickly that fisherman begin to cut back on their catches. At this point, demand will become much more price inelastic; large increases in price will only result in small % increases in supply, as fisherman realise they have to conserve the stocks.

If the market remains stable, then in the long run, the annual supply for fish will be such that (assuming the rate of fish reproduction remains constant) it causes the total fish population to remain constant. Perfect sustainability.

[Hydesland]

the problem with the supply demand argument is it only works if the peak supply is higher than the peak possible demand, if it is not then the market will destroy supply, and self destruct.

What are you talking about?

[Sociobiology]

well the image answered the last one, as price rises the incentive for fishermen actually increases as people still buy fish at high prices, bluefin tuna is selling at $520 a pound and sales are expanding as price rises, because the consumer will still pay it.
the problem with the supply demand argument is it only works if the peak supply is higher than the peak possible demand, if it is not then the market will destroy supply, and self destruct.

Not quite. Regardless of how high the demand goes, it's line will always intersect supply's on the standard demand-supply chart. I'm guessing that the demand fish is highly price elastic initially, based on what you said about bluefin; even if it is, all that means is that an increase in price will drive a much bigger % increase in supply, until stocks of fish begin to decrease so quickly that fisherman begin to cut back on their catches. At this point, demand will become much more price inelastic; large increases in price will only result in small % increases in supply, as fisherman realise they have to conserve the stocks.

If the market remains stable, then in the long run, the annual supply for fish will be such that (assuming the rate of fish reproduction remains constant) it causes the total fish population to remain constant. Perfect sustainability.

except fish have a minimum population size, not to mention fish reproduction has never exceeded harvest, supply of fish is not the harvest but the reproduction rate which is independent of demand or harvest. fishermen do not restrict catch due to shortage human behavior does not work that way (dissonance bites us in the ass every time), they will harvest them until there are no more to harvest, because demand is independent of supply. the only way this would not happen is if harvest fell with price which is the opposite of what happens. Theory is all well and good until it is proven wrong which it has in these cases.

[Hydesland]

supply of fish is not the harvest but the reproduction rate which is independent of demand or harvest.

No, the reproduction rate is a component of the change in the supply of fish, not the quantity.

[Sociobiology]

supply of fish is not the harvest but the reproduction rate which is independent of demand or harvest.

No, the reproduction rate is a component of the change in the supply of fish, not the quantity.

bad framing, the reproduction rate is the controlling factor in supply (the total number of fish) not the rate of harvest, this is the important part decease in harvest WILL NOT cause an increase in supply. Ecosystems are rarely elastic, especially when destabilized to this magnitude, if anything they cause further decline.
this is classic tragedy of the commons.
The lower threshold on fishing income per fisherman is a leading factor as well.
whenever supply is disconnected from demand as it is in most non-farmed biological resources.
basics here, it violates most of the assumptions of supply and demand theory.
exit barriers exist and are implicit,
factors of production are immobile
information is inherently limited.
the demand is effected by both status and taste thus violating law of demand.

[Hydesland]

this is the important part decease in harvest WILL NOT cause an increase in supply.

Why is this?

[Sociobiology]

this is the important part decease in harvest WILL NOT cause an increase in supply.

Why is this?

harvesting fish or lack thereof does not change there reproductive cycle (fish don't fuck more because you stop eating them), also the niche they occupy is lost when there numbers decrease in a relativity short term, so a reduction in supply causes a drop in peak potential supply.

[Moral Libertarians]

Why is this?

harvesting fish or lack thereof does not change there reproductive cycle (fish don't fuck more because you stop eating them), also the niche they occupy is lost when there numbers decrease in a relativity short term, so a reduction in supply causes a drop in peak potential supply.

If you stop harvesting fish, you increase their average lifespan. This means that each fish can reproduce more times in its life than would otherwise have been the case. Therefore, the rate of population growth will increase.

[Hydesland]

(fish don't fuck more because you stop eating them)

No, but a higher quantity of fish are now fucking at the same rate, presumably meaning more fish in total are reproduced.

also the niche they occupy is lost when there numbers decrease in a relativity short term, so a reduction in supply causes a drop in peak potential supply.

I'm not familiar with your terms.

[Yootwopia]

given how few fish are left, how should we harvest fish?

We shouldn't, for a while. Send out the EU-Boots into the North Sea to fire torpedoes at anyone found chancing their arm, too, instead of just going "oh my you are a terrible cad, giz fifty quid".

[Yootwopia]

If you stop harvesting fish, you increase their average lifespan. This means that each fish can reproduce more times in its life than would otherwise have been the case. Therefore, the rate of population growth will increase.

Erm also most fish that people like (Cod etc.) do not reproduce at all until their fully-grown, adult stage. Because so many people do not even begin to understand that Fish Are Not Really Like Mammals, fishing policy is one of the most backwards things in the universe.

[Sociobiology]

(fish don't fuck more because you stop eating them)

No, but a higher quantity of fish are now fucking at the same rate, presumably meaning more fish in total are reproduced.

also the niche they occupy is lost when there numbers decrease in a relativity short term, so a reduction in supply causes a drop in peak potential supply.

I'm not familiar with your terms.

that is because we are talking about a biological system, which do not behave like an economic one.