Riots in North London (and other UK cities)

[EvilDarkMagicians]

I just feel sympathy for any businesses(be them local or international) and residents that are affected by these scum.

By scum I trust you mean people who are angry at a government and society which has continued to not only ignore their plight, but continues to shit on them and no lift a finger to make things better for them, right?

Why Trixie, I never knew your almighty powers could extend to knowing every single protesters financial and social situation!

Also no matter what they're reasons are they're still breaking the law(although that doesn't mean shit to you seeing as you see justification for these rioters actions). There is also no justification in breaking other peoples property due to their anger at society and the government.

[Alyakia]

By scum I trust you mean people who are angry at a government and society which has continued to not only ignore their plight, but continues to shit on them and no lift a finger to make things better for them, right?

Why Trixie, I never knew your almighty powers could extend to knowing every single protesters financial and social situation!

Also no matter what they're reasons are they're still breaking the law(although that doesn't mean shit to you seeing as you see justification for these rioters actions). There is also no justification in breaking other peoples property due to their anger at society and the government.

Tottenham forms the core of the borough of Haringey, where a fast-rising total of well over 10,000 people are claiming jobseeker's allowance. In Tottenham itself, recent government figures showed there were 54 people chasing each registered employment vacancy.

Just gonna post this again.

Can't anyone talk about why riots happen without people jumping on them and moaning about how clearly they're justifying and defending the rioters and are completely ok with everything they're doing? (Literally all of the rioters. All of them.) G&P Trixie sees reasons, not justifications, and because Trixie sees reasons does not mean they agree with the actions that are taken.

The thread has many examples of them talking about how out of order what the rioters are doing is.

[New Norman England]

Do you actually have any plan to solve the problem or do you intend to just sit and do nothing handing out sympathies and hoping that eventually they'll somehow break out of the poverty cycle by themselves?

I don't know whether it's an ad hom, argument from ignorance, or appeal to tradition to imply that I can't criticise an approach to a problem unless I have a comprehensive alternative.

Are you by any chance white, middle-class and read the Daily Mail?

Only one of those is correct, but why is it relevant?

[Trixiestan]

By scum I trust you mean people who are angry at a government and society which has continued to not only ignore their plight, but continues to shit on them and no lift a finger to make things better for them, right?

Why Trixie, I never knew your almighty powers could extend to knowing every single protesters financial and social situation!

Also no matter what they're reasons are they're still breaking the law(although that doesn't mean shit to you seeing as you see justification for these rioters actions). There is also no justification in breaking other peoples property due to their anger at society and the government.

Well Trixie, while I don't advocate or agree with what the rioters are doing, I must say I sympathise with them and find it hard to sympathise with the police which have in recent years proven to be corrupt at best and I don't want to think about it at worst!

While I sympathise with those who are suffering as a result of the riots, they are just a byproduct of a byproduct, which itself is a product of people in a postion of power not bothering to help those in need while stuffing their own pockets with cash and going on holiday while shit is falling apart (i'm looking at you Cameron you fairly unpleasent person).

[Kazomal]

Can't anyone talk about why riots happen without people jumping on them and moaning about how clearly they're justifying and defending the rioters and are completely ok with everything they're doing? (Literally all of the rioters. All of them.) G&P Trixie sees reasons, not justifications, and because Trixie sees reasons does not mean they agree with the actions that are taken.

Right? Like I've been saying, you can go one being a shiteater and bitching and moaning about how stupid and wrong rioting is, even though no one (that I've seen) is actually trying to justify rioting, or you can address the conditions that lead to crime and rioting, such as unemployment, poverty, and lack of opportunity.

Choice is yours, folks. Why so many continue to choose the shiteating bitch and moan option is beyond me.

[Alyakia]

Do you actually have any plan to solve the problem or do you intend to just sit and do nothing handing out sympathies and hoping that eventually they'll somehow break out of the poverty cycle by themselves?

I don't know whether it's an ad hom, argument from ignorance, or appeal to tradition to imply that I can't criticise an approach to a problem unless I have a comprehensive alternative.

Are you by any chance white, middle-class and read the Daily Mail?

Only one of those is correct, but why is it relevant?

The problem isn't that you aren't allowed to criticise an approach (it's funny because all the recent actions by the actual people in power have been spending cuts) or that you lack an alternative, it's that you gave an alternative that you have no plan to/way of making happen that relied entirely on social change without any catalyst to that change.

[The Parkus Empire]

Why Trixie, I never knew your almighty powers could extend to knowing every single protesters financial and social situation!

Also no matter what they're reasons are they're still breaking the law(although that doesn't mean shit to you seeing as you see justification for these rioters actions). There is also no justification in breaking other peoples property due to their anger at society and the government.

Tottenham forms the core of the borough of Haringey, where a fast-rising total of well over 10,000 people are claiming jobseeker's allowance. In Tottenham itself, recent government figures showed there were 54 people chasing each registered employment vacancy.

Just gonna post this again.

Can't anyone talk about why riots happen without people jumping on them and moaning about how clearly they're justifying and defending the rioters and are completely ok with everything they're doing? (Literally all of the rioters. All of them.) G&P Trixie sees reasons, not justifications, and because Trixie sees reasons does not mean they agree with the actions that are taken.

The thread has many examples of them talking about how out of order what the rioters are doing is.

I viciously approve of this post.

[Kazomal]

And you're going to sit about and wait for them to magically break out of poverty and start instilling those values?

Because it's impossible for them to instil values in the children they decided to bear, without throwing my money at them. Alright.

Poverty causes cime. It's a fact. You don't have the "throw money at it" to fight poverty, but it does take money to fight poverty. Just as it takes money to run a society in general.

[New Norman England]

The problem isn't that you aren't allowed to criticise an approach (it's funny because all the recent actions by the actual people in power have been spending cuts) or that you lack an alternative, it's that you gave an alternative that you have no plan to/way of making happen that relied entirely on social change without any catalyst to that change.

Why does change need a catalyst? Why does someone need to be convinced that raising their kids to be more community-spirited and respectful might improve conditions in their community?

Poverty causes cime. It's a fact. You don't have the "throw money at it" to fight poverty, but it does take money to fight poverty. Just as it takes money to run a society in general.

But studies have also shown that "community spirit" (defined as social cohesion among neighbors combined with their willingness to intervene on behalf of the common good) also has a negative effect on crime.

[Trixiestan]

The problem isn't that you aren't allowed to criticise an approach (it's funny because all the recent actions by the actual people in power have been spending cuts) or that you lack an alternative, it's that you gave an alternative that you have no plan to/way of making happen that relied entirely on social change without any catalyst to that change.

Why does change need a catalyst? Why does someone need to be convinced that raising their kids to be more community-spirited and respectful might improve conditions in their community?

Did you read what I said before? Or did you focus on the "ARE YOU ANY OF THESE THREE" question? People are trying to raise their children to be good members of society and there's plenty of community spirit. Infact, if anything, they have more community spirit than most people in the country, which is where the gang violence stems from. Gangs are the product of poor living conditions, feeling isolated from the authorities that be and a general feeling of being underthreat. Most gangs by their very nature are people trying to defend their communities which rapidly decline into drug dealing and the like.

[New Norman England]

Did you read what I said before? Or did you focus on the "ARE YOU ANY OF THESE THREE" question?

Your "ARE YOU ANY OF THESE THREE?" question came before the rest of what you wrote, I'll readily admit that reading your sanctimonious bullshit question completely put me off reading the rest of your post.

[Alyakia]

The problem isn't that you aren't allowed to criticise an approach (it's funny because all the recent actions by the actual people in power have been spending cuts) or that you lack an alternative, it's that you gave an alternative that you have no plan to/way of making happen that relied entirely on social change without any catalyst to that change.

Why does change need a catalyst? Why does someone need to be convinced that raising their kids to be more community-spirited and respectful might improve conditions in their community?

Poverty causes cime. It's a fact. You don't have the "throw money at it" to fight poverty, but it does take money to fight poverty. Just as it takes money to run a society in general.

But studies have also shown that "community spirit" (defined as social cohesion among neighbors combined with their willingness to intervene on behalf of the common good) also has a negative effect on crime.

Change doesn't happen magically. If they're idiots who don't care about their community, or do care but don't know how to get involved (perhaps because the government, say, for example, shuts down your youth clubs/coummity centres hint hint) then it's not likely that they, and even more importantly, a large enough number of people, will be able to come the conclusion that raising their kids a certain way is good and have kids to raise that way and then not get their work undone by having that kid surrounded by little shits.

[New Norman England]

Change doesn't happen magically. If they're idiots who don't care about their community, or do care but don't know how to get involved (perhaps because the government, say, for example, shuts down your youth clubs/coummity centres hint hint) then it's not likely that they, and even more importantly, a large enough number of people, will be able to come the conclusion that raising their kids a certain way is good and have kids to raise that way and then not get their work undone by having that kid surrounded by little shits.

I don't think we're coming any closer to identifying the central problem here, and I'm not confident we will without knowing the people.

[Trixiestan]

Did you read what I said before? Or did you focus on the "ARE YOU ANY OF THESE THREE" question?

Your "ARE YOU ANY OF THESE THREE?" question came before the rest of what you wrote, I'll readily admit that reading your sanctimonious bullshit question completely put me off reading the rest of your post.

No need to be rude dear. ):

I'm just trying to help you understand the situation a little more rather than you having to rely on the idea of multiculturalism not working and bad parenting somehow resulting in anarchy in parts of London, especially when neither influenced the riots in anyway (well, except the top of the totem pole in society being most white, but whatever).

[Kazomal]

Poverty causes cime. It's a fact. You don't have the "throw money at it" to fight poverty, but it does take money to fight poverty. Just as it takes money to run a society in general.

But studies have also shown that "community spirit" (defined as social cohesion among neighbors combined with their willingness to intervene on behalf of the common good) also has a negative effect on crime.

Straight up. But poverty has a negative effect on community spirit. So, while growing community spirit is a great way to combat this kind of thing, actually having jobs available for those willing to work would do a great deal of help, too, and would foster increased community spirit.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about (creating jobs, making sure there's adequate educational services, etc), not putting people on the dole for the rest of their lives.

[New Norman England]

Your "ARE YOU ANY OF THESE THREE?" question came before the rest of what you wrote, I'll readily admit that reading your sanctimonious bullshit question completely put me off reading the rest of your post.

No need to be rude dear. ):

I'm just trying to help you understand the situation a little more rather than you having to rely on the idea of multiculturalism not working and bad parenting somehow resulting in anarchy in parts of London, especially when neither influenced the riots in anyway (well, except the top of the totem pole in society being most white, but whatever).

I apologise for being rude, but your question was quite horrible.

My thoughts on multiculturalism are not just specific to this incident, though I think it's safe to say that the doctrine of multiculturalism has allowed Carribean "Yardie" culture to survive and prosper in London. I'm not saying that gang culture is foreign to Britain, but this specific strain of it is a very big problem in that particular place.

The reason I talk about parenting is because somebody suggested that poverty and lack of access to certain services is responsible for young people getting in to street crime, but I know from experience that people can be good even if they are in poverty. This leads me to believe that money (or a lack of it) isn't the only cause behind delinquent behaviour, and that a portion of the blame belongs on inattentive parents or parents that fail to instil proper values in their children.

Straight up. But poverty has a negative effect on community spirit. So, while growing community spirit is a great way to combat this kind of thing, actually having jobs available for those willing to work would do a great deal of help, too, and would foster increased community spirit.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about (creating jobs, making sure there's adequate educational services, etc), not putting people on the dole for the rest of their lives.

I'm completely in favour of every person being entitled to certain level of education and more people being given employment opportunities, but the problem is that not everybody takes advantage of those things when they are available. I'm not saying that's the cause here, but I've lived in some pretty rough areas where people were happy to drop out of school, not work, and then spend their day shitting the place up. They might tear down a youth centre or set fire to a park, then people will complain that it's the lack of youth centres and parks that makes them do it.

People like this shit up the area and everybody starts to feel unsafe and demoralised as gangs sprout up, and I don't think approaches we've taken to this kind of social issue have so far worked.

[Alyakia]

No need to be rude dear. ):

I'm just trying to help you understand the situation a little more rather than you having to rely on the idea of multiculturalism not working and bad parenting somehow resulting in anarchy in parts of London, especially when neither influenced the riots in anyway (well, except the top of the totem pole in society being most white, but whatever).

I apologise for being rude, but your question was quite horrible.

My thoughts on multiculturalism are not just specific to this incident, though I think it's safe to say that the doctrine of multiculturalism has allowed Carribean "Yardie" culture to survive and prosper in London. I'm not saying that gang culture is foreign to Britain, but this specific strain of it is a very big problem in that particular place.

The reason I talk about parenting is because somebody suggested that poverty and lack of access to certain services is responsible for young people getting in to street crime, but I know from experience that people can be good even if they are in poverty. This leads me to believe that money (or a lack of it) isn't the only cause behind delinquent behaviour, and that a portion of the blame belongs on inattentive parents or parents that fail to instil proper values in their children.

Funilly enough, the shitty parents and their shitty children who go on to have children of their own and be shitty parents to them are pretty damn likely to end up poor/remain poor, contining the cycle.

[New Norman England]

Funilly enough, the shitty parents and their shitty children who go on to have children of their own and be shitty parents to them are pretty damn likely to end up poor/remain poor, contining the cycle.

I don't see a simple solution to that. We can pour money in to all sorts of social projects, but for some reason the cycle just continues.

[Alyakia]

Funilly enough, the shitty parents and their shitty children who go on to have children of their own and be shitty parents to them are pretty damn likely to end up poor/remain poor, contining the cycle.

I don't see a simple solution to that. We can pour money in to all sorts of social projects, but for some reason the cycle just continues.

Probably because there isn't one.

(It's still funny because this was directly following reducing the amount of money being "poured" into all sorts of social projects/eduacation.)

[New Norman England]

I don't see a simple solution to that. We can pour money in to all sorts of social projects, but for some reason the cycle just continues.

Probably because there isn't one.

(It's still funny because this was directly following reducing the amount of money being "poured" into all sorts of social projects/eduacation.)

Tottenham was a shit hole long before the ConDems got in.

[Alyakia]

Probably because there isn't one.

(It's still funny because this was directly following reducing the amount of money being "poured" into all sorts of social projects/eduacation.)

Tottenham was a shit hole long before the ConDems got in.

I can't say if the policies were actually done by the ConDems, but whoever it was, they made it shitter.

[New Norman England]

Tottenham was a shit hole long before the ConDems got in.

I can't say if the policies were actually done by the ConDems, but whoever it was, they made it shitter.

Labour spent more money than we had on exactly the sorts of things that people seem to think prevent things like this.

I just think this is one of those problems that's not caused or cured by how much or little of our money the government throws at it, that there is likely to be some other cause specific to the area and the people who dwell in it.

[Trixiestan]

I can't say if the policies were actually done by the ConDems, but whoever it was, they made it shitter.

Labour spent more money than we had on exactly the sorts of things that people seem to think prevent things like this.

I just think this is one of those problems that's not caused or cured by how much or little of our money the government throws at it, that there is likely to be some other cause specific to the area and the people who dwell in it.

Actually the changes the Coalition implemented did have a noticable effect and cause a rise in crime in the area.

[New Norman England]

Labour spent more money than we had on exactly the sorts of things that people seem to think prevent things like this.

I just think this is one of those problems that's not caused or cured by how much or little of our money the government throws at it, that there is likely to be some other cause specific to the area and the people who dwell in it.

Actually the changes the Coalition implemented did have a noticable effect and cause a rise in crime in the area.

Not that it would surprise me (you take away a baby's dummy and it will cry), but do you have a source?

I actually just looked it up for myself and according to Met overall crime in Haringey was down 3.5% in the 12 months up to this June, compared against the previous 12 months. In fact gun crime was down from 141 cases to 88 (that'll be thanks to Operation Trident).

Source: http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/#

[Keronians]

Riots in Brixton...