Riots in North London (and other UK cities)

[Lessnt]

So your family is Working Poor and you don't mind the government cuts because they're necessary for the economy?

I'm just trying to guess, no disrespect intended.

No, I hate this government and what it is doing, I disagree with it strongly. But never, ever will I be angry enough to cause the kind of destruction we have seen. No sane human being would.

So...if the government started killing the rioters....you would not get so angry and oppose your government with violence?Or at least very destructive violence?

[Mahassan]

What really strikes me is that, visually; we can gather over 80% of the Rioters are not of British descent.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

What really strikes me is that, visually; we can gather over 80% of the Rioters are not of British descent.

Magic powers?

[AiliailiA]

Water cannons are useful to keep a mob back from a line. They basically push people away, and using them to throw people into walls or whatever you're thinking is no better than breaking their bones with a truncheon.

And when they push people back, they will go home. They aren't there to make a point - they are there for easy and free stuff. When it gets hard to get free stuff - they will not bother.

And plastic bullets can indeed be lethal.

Not if they are fired below head level.

They seem like a crappy crowd-control measure, if all they do is go Bang and cause pain.

And that is the reason why getting hands on free stuff will be hard and therefore they wont comeback.

Using them just makes it more likely that a cop will be shot with a real bullet,

This isn't USA remember? Teens dont usually have guns.

or that rumors will spread that cops are shooting people.

And polce will give statement that the rumor is total bull and bbc will broadcast it till it is permanently stamped on their head.

It's not just teens, there are older people involved. Including some who are in it for the money. Gangs in fact.

It's absurd to say that shooting at the rioters will solve the problem. There is no good solution for a riot, you suppress it as best you can with available police showing their presence, arresting rioters where it safe to do so, making identifications, protecting firefighters and ambulance staff, and protecting the innocent. Then later when the riot has worn itself out you punish the guilty but only those who really are proven to be guilty after a proper trial.

Anything else just builds the kind of resentment towards police and the law which will lead to "protesters" really fighting police, with guns.

[Boico]

No, I hate this government and what it is doing, I disagree with it strongly. But never, ever will I be angry enough to cause the kind of destruction we have seen. No sane human being would.

So...if the government started killing the rioters....you would not get so angry and oppose your government with violence?Or at least very destructive violence?

I meant I would never get so angry over my economic situation. And if that did happen (the government killing protesters that is) I would still not target my local community. There is a very big difference between economic inequality and a massacre.

[Lessnt]

What really strikes me is that, visually; we can gather over 80% of the Rioters are not of British descent.

Which is where my immigrants work by their own rules come in.
For example.Africa still has many tribes who only live by their communities rules regardless of police.
And simply view others as just another gang.Plenty of smaller communities around those areas do the same.
Now that kind of lifestyle and culture can take a very very long time to change and or adapt in other countries.
Possibly decades possibly hundreds of years depending on the country.

[Trixiestan]

What really strikes me is that, visually; we can gather over 80% of the Rioters are not of British descent.

What really stikes me is that, visually, we can gather over 80% of this post is infact crap.

[Lessnt]

What really strikes me is that, visually; we can gather over 80% of the Rioters are not of British descent.

What really stikes me is that, visually, we can gather over 80% of this post is infact crap.

nah...

[AiliailiA]

What really strikes me is that, visually; we can gather over 80% of the Rioters are not of British descent.

When an ethnic Nowegian kills a bunch of other Norwegians, it's "predictable, because of the tensions caused by immigrants"
When immigrants (or children, or grandchildren, of immigrants) smash some stuff up, it's "those immigrants causing trouble"

You racists, you want to have it both ways. Doesn't matter who does it, it's the fault of "those immigrants".

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

What really strikes me is that, visually; we can gather over 80% of the Rioters are not of British descent.

What really stikes me is that, visually, we can gather over 80% of this post is infact crap.

You're too kind

[Lessnt]

What really strikes me is that, visually; we can gather over 80% of the Rioters are not of British descent.

When an ethnic Nowegian kills a bunch of other Norwegians, it's "predictable, because of the tensions caused by immigrants"
When immigrants (or children, or grandchildren, of immigrants) smash some stuff up, it's "those immigrants causing trouble"

You racists, you want to have it both ways. Doesn't matter who does it, it's the fault of "those immigrants".

nowegain extremeists was to blame for the first one.
Leave it to people like you to always spin things in a way that would make whoever you support as the victim.
They really were victims in the first one though.

[AiliailiA]

What really strikes me is that, visually; we can gather over 80% of the Rioters are not of British descent.

Which is where my immigrants work by their own rules come in.
For example.Africa still has many tribes who only live by their communities rules regardless of police.
And simply view others as just another gang.Plenty of smaller communities around those areas do the same.
Now that kind of lifestyle and culture can take a very very long time to change and or adapt in other countries.
Possibly decades possibly hundreds of years depending on the country.

The only source of immigrants you mentioned there was Africa.

When you say "possibly hundreds of years" you are talking about Black Americans aren't you?

It's their "tribal culture" of disrespect for the law, you're saying? It has nothing to do with being forcibly separated from their cultures and their families, and held in slavery. Oh no, it couldn't be anything to do with that. No, it's their black culture that makes them all gang bangers.

That's what you're saying isn't it?

[AiliailiA]

Leave it to people like you

I regret that I got into it with you without reading all of your posts first. You have the advantage over me, in that you apparently know me.

[Lessnt]

Which is where my immigrants work by their own rules come in.
For example.Africa still has many tribes who only live by their communities rules regardless of police.
And simply view others as just another gang.Plenty of smaller communities around those areas do the same.
Now that kind of lifestyle and culture can take a very very long time to change and or adapt in other countries.
Possibly decades possibly hundreds of years depending on the country.

The only source of immigrants you mentioned there was Africa.

When you say "possibly hundreds of years" you are talking about Black Americans aren't you?

It's their "tribal culture" of disrespect for the law, you're saying? It has nothing to do with being forcibly separated from their cultures and their families, and held in slavery. Oh no, it couldn't be anything to do with that. No, it's their black culture that makes them all gang bangers.

That's what you're saying isn't it?

Nope your completely wrong.Assuming from your response your not likely to believe me.

[Lessnt]

Leave it to people like you

I regret that I got into it with you without reading all of your posts first. You have the advantage over me, in that you apparently know me.

I only know as much as you post.Vice versa.

[AiliailiA]

I regret that I got into it with you without reading all of your posts first. You have the advantage over me, in that you apparently know me.

I only know as much as you post.Vice versa.

And because I have three times as many posts as you ... you should know me three times as well as I know you.

3 x 0 = 0 I guess

[Trixiestan]

The virtues of the poor may be readily admitted, and are much to be regretted. We are often told that the poor are grateful for charity. Some of them are, no doubt, but the best amongst the poor are never grateful. They are ungrateful, discontented, disobedient, and rebellious. They are quite right to be so. Charity they feel to be a ridiculously inadequate mode of partial restitution, or a sentimental dole, usually accompanied by some impertinent attempt on the part of the sentimentalist to tyrannise over their private lives. Why should they be grateful for the crumbs that fall from the rich man’s table? They should be seated at the board, and are beginning to know it.

As for being discontented, a man who would not be discontented with such surroundings and such a low mode of life would be a perfect brute. Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man’s original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion. Sometimes the poor are praised for being thrifty. But to recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less. For a town or country labourer to practise thrift would be absolutely immoral. Man should not be ready to show that he can live like a badly-fed animal. He should decline to live like that, and should either steal or go on the rates, which is considered by many to be a form of stealing. As for begging, it is safer to beg than to take, but it is finer to take than to beg.

No: a poor man who is ungrateful, unthrifty, discontented, and rebellious, is probably a real personality, and has much in him. He is at any rate a healthy protest. As for the virtuous poor, one can pity them, of course, but one cannot possibly admire them. They have made private terms with the enemy, and sold their birthright for very bad pottage. They must also be extraordinarily stupid. I can quite understand a man accepting laws that protect private property, and admit of its accumulation, as long as he himself is able under those conditions to realise some form of beautiful and intellectual life. But it is almost incredible to me how a man whose life is marred and made hideous by such laws can possibly acquiesce in their continuance.

This seemed fairly relevant and reminds me of some of the views stated by people who in the news who actually understand what is going on.

[The Parkus Empire]

Damn well said.

[AiliailiA]

I'll try some other line of argument then ...

What really strikes me is that, visually; we can gather over 80% of the Rioters are not of British descent.

Which is where my immigrants work by their own rules come in.
For example.Africa still has many tribes who only live by their communities rules regardless of police.
And simply view others as just another gang.Plenty of smaller communities around those areas do the same.
Now that kind of lifestyle and culture can take a very very long time to change and or adapt in other countries.
Possibly decades possibly hundreds of years depending on the country.

I think the greatest force of "integration", of learning to live by the same rules, is to work together. Unlike the law, which you only feel when you break it and get caught, workplaces are an immersive environment where you have an easier time and earn more money if you can follow the rules of the workplace, which are the rules of law plus some further rules. If a person can adapt to the rules of a workplace, they have adapted to all the rules they need to know to be part of the community.

Well, intermarriage is very effective too, but that really isn't something that government has any part of. Nor does it apply to the young people who are a big part of the riots.

What they both have in common, the immigrants (and children, and grandchildren, of immigrants) and the young teens, is denial of work opportunities. Britain is a rich country, overall, but apparently it cannot afford to pay employees. The private sector and now the public sector, apparently cannot afford to pay a wage to people who want to work, who would be happier working, and would find common cause with British society if only they could work.

[AiliailiA]

Damn well said.

It's Oscar Wilde. He could take a pig's fart and phrase it into fine words.

I agree with about half of it. Wilde is really that good

[Darth Didacticus]

It is not likely that it will hit on their head... even if it does, few scums will die.

I can't help but think of this every time someone is cheesy enough to use the word "scum": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aspp1r0tS4

In all honesty, I thought of it too.

[Trixiestan]

Have a map! :3

Mapping the riots with poverty

Data journalist Matt Stiles has taken our data on deprivation - and the riot incidents over the last few days and mashed the two up together. The darker reds represent poorer places, the blues are the richer areas. What do you think? Is there a correlation between the two?

EDIT:

Does anyone else love the irony in how a lot of the people calling for the army to be sent in are the same people who a few decades ago were crying out for "Anarchy in the UK"?

[Darth Didacticus]

Which is where my immigrants work by their own rules come in.
For example.Africa still has many tribes who only live by their communities rules regardless of police.
And simply view others as just another gang.Plenty of smaller communities around those areas do the same.
Now that kind of lifestyle and culture can take a very very long time to change and or adapt in other countries.
Possibly decades possibly hundreds of years depending on the country.

The only source of immigrants you mentioned there was Africa.

When you say "possibly hundreds of years" you are talking about Black Americans aren't you?

It's their "tribal culture" of disrespect for the law, you're saying? It has nothing to do with being forcibly separated from their cultures and their families, and held in slavery. Oh no, it couldn't be anything to do with that. No, it's their black culture that makes them all gang bangers.

That's what you're saying isn't it?

Please point out to me which American citizen currently living was a slave.

[Vellosia]

Have a map! :3

Mapping the riots with poverty

Data journalist Matt Stiles has taken our data on deprivation - and the riot incidents over the last few days and mashed the two up together. The darker reds represent poorer places, the blues are the richer areas. What do you think? Is there a correlation between the two?

EDIT:

Does anyone else love the irony in how a lot of the people calling for the army to be sent in are the same people who a few decades ago were crying out for "Anarchy in the UK"?

Correlation =/= causation.

[Aeronos]

Have a map! :3

Mapping the riots with poverty


EDIT:

Does anyone else love the irony in how a lot of the people calling for the army to be sent in are the same people who a few decades ago were crying out for "Anarchy in the UK"?

Correlation =/= causation.

It's The Guardian, were you expecting anything less?