NationStates

Many temporary workers in the farms of northern Italy are muslims. Since Ramadan has begun - and northern Italy is under an heatwave (today we're expecting up to 40 °C in the Po Valley), this creates a problem: drinking.
Last years some muslim workers, who chose to adhere strictly to Ramadan, felt ill because of the heat and the hard work of hand-harvesting melons - some of them died of dishydratation and heatshock while working. And next year the problem will be even worse, since Ramadan will fall earlier in the summer.
So the local farmers' commitee (Coldiretti) is willing to enforce, out of safety concerns, drinking during the day also for muslim workers - on pain of being fired for the workers who don't comply.
The local muslim community, though, protests against the mandatory breaking of the Ramadan rules - they do not object to workers drinking to avoid heatshocks, but they say every muslim should decide freely whether to break Ramadan or to adhere strictly.
Of course, if drinking is mandatory we can be sure that muslim workers would drink - while, if not made mandatory, some of the most strict followers could be tempted to push themselves over the limit to avoid breaking the religious rules, and thus risk their own lives.

I think it's an interesting issue. (Oh, and by the way, I think that working by night would be impossible because it would be impossible to provide enough lighting).

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/08/italy-farm-workers-must-drink-during.html

excerpt from link above wrote:Muslim farmhands in Mantua who refuse to drink water ''will be temporarily suspended from work and if they repeat the infraction, they will be fired,'' the committee said. Committee President Roberto Cagliari, who also leads the Mantua chapter of agricultural organisation Coldiretti, said the decision had been taken in order to protect workers in the province's tomato and melon fields. ''We made the order because we want to safeguard the health of our workers as much as possible,'' he said. ''The refusal to drink water on the part of various farmhands in melon fields during Ramadan last year created considerable problems''.

But a representative of the Mantuan Islamic community, Ben Mansour, said the order was illegal and unnecessary. ''There is no work contract and no legal provision requiring us to drink during Ramadan and if any Muslim worker is fired for this, then we will contest it,'' he said. ''If a Muslim farmhand feels unwell, he can take a break and if he then realises that the feeling is not a passing one, he may take a drink. ''But that is his own decision and no one else should be able to force that on him''.

I'm thinking that the mandatory drinking is a good idea, because safety concerns for workers trump religious traditions, but still, meh. So what do you think?

I honestly can't remember much about Islam, so correct me if I'm wrong... Isn't one of the caveats of Islam that life is of tantamount importance and that certain rules may be broken or "ignored" so that a follower may live?

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:I honestly can't remember much about Islam, so correct me if I'm wrong... Isn't one of the caveats of Islam that life is of tantamount importance and that certain rules may be broken or "ignored" so that a follower may live?

Iirc, yes... but there you are, when it's 10 in the morning, the temperature is 40 °C, humidity is 80%, and you've been working in the fields since 5 o'clock, it's likely that you can't even reckon that you're getting seriously ill, I guess.

Risottia wrote:

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:I honestly can't remember much about Islam, so correct me if I'm wrong... Isn't one of the caveats of Islam that life is of tantamount importance and that certain rules may be broken or "ignored" so that a follower may live?

Iirc, yes... but there you are, when it's 10 in the morning, the temperature is 40 °C, humidity is 80%, and you've been working in the fields since 5 o'clock, it's likely that you can't even reckon that you're getting seriously ill, I guess.

That's really all you can do - work early. I would even support working at 3-4 in the morning, just to beat the heat. I've heard a few tales about construction workers here beating 100F heat by late morning by beginning their work day by 3 or 4 am, just so they could pour their grout without having to worry about setting too fast.

Only here, they'd work early to try to avoid heat exhaustion.

I think that if someone is going to insist on doing his job unsafely, regardless of the reason or motivation, the employer has every right to make sure that employee does it for some other employer.

get the IV's out?

balls to religious custom if they want to kill themselves they can be polite and not let it get in the way of my precious melons (though I'm amazed we have to babysit adults like fecking children on the matter)

I think it's too authoritarian for my liking. If someone is willing to risk heatstroke for Allah (Jesus, Buddha, Elvis, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.) that's their choice. Hell, it might be better for the gene pool if some of the more fundamentalist followers killed themselves.

I'm not Muslim but I very conveniently took a course on Islamic law this summer. From what I remember, the following passages could be cited in this case.

We will ease you to the Easy Way . (Qur'an, 87:8)

… He has selected you and not placed any constraint upon you in the observance of your religion—the religion of your forefather Abraham… (Qur'an, 22:78)

"Make things easy for the people, and do not make it difficult for them, and make them calm (with glad tidings) and do not repulse (them)." (Bukhari Hadith)

If practice is too hard then the follower is allowed to skip some aspects of ritual or observance. That is why travellers can skip or delay fasting and so on and so forth. On of my old professors said Islam is meant to ease hardship, not create it. That is why his courses were kind of easy...

So these guys... I think they should be drinking zee water.

EDIT: Oh, and Muslim are supposed to follow the laws of the country they reside in... so if the gov says drink then then zee guys should drink.

It should be their choice whether they want to kill themselves or not. But whoever they are working for HAS TO MAKE IT CLEAR that they are working at their own risk, otherwise, they'd be sued to oblivion (assuming Italy is anything like the US).

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:I honestly can't remember much about Islam, so correct me if I'm wrong... Isn't one of the caveats of Islam that life is of tantamount importance and that certain rules may be broken or "ignored" so that a follower may live?

I assume this is correct since the same caveat exists in Judaism. The individual's health is deemed the top priority in Jewish law.

This is an interesting topic, similar to euthanasia. Who does one's life belong to? Who has the right to decide what's best for you?

Also, if you believe that your god has granted you your life, why would you be so eager to squander it? Wouldn't that far outweigh whatever favour you tried to curry by obeying religious law at your peril?

Soviet Taoistan wrote:I'm not Muslim but I very conveniently took a course on Islamic law this summer. From what I remember, the following passages could be cited in this case.

We will ease you to the Easy Way . (Qur'an, 87:8)

… He has selected you and not placed any constraint upon you in the observance of your religion—the religion of your forefather Abraham… (Qur'an, 22:78)

"Make things easy for the people, and do not make it difficult for them, and make them calm (with glad tidings) and do not repulse (them)." (Bukhari Hadith)

If practice is too hard then the follower is allowed to skip some aspects of ritual or observance. That is why travellers can skip or delay fasting and so on and so forth. On of my old professors said Islam is meant to ease hardship, not create it. That is why his courses were kind of easy...

So these guys... I think they should be drinking zee water.

EDIT: Oh, and Muslim are supposed to follow the laws of the country they reside in... so if the gov says drink then then zee guys should drink.

Islamic law? i'm a little concerned that a religion has any say in the affairs of laws now.
how old fashioned is that? Islamic law, that'd be like Western countries having a Christian law...*shudders*.

I'm thinking that the mandatory drinking is a good idea, because safety concerns for workers trump religious traditions, but still, meh. So what do you think?

How about we abolish this nonsense?

After all, ramadan is about following the example of Muhammad (murderer, rapist etc...).

Krypton-Zod wrote:

I'm thinking that the mandatory drinking is a good idea, because safety concerns for workers trump religious traditions, but still, meh. So what do you think?

How about we abolish this nonsense?

After all, ramadan is about following the example of Muhammad (murderer, rapist etc...).

What nonsense - the 1st Amendment? Right-o. How about you move to a nation where they don't have freedom of religion. You know, a place more suited to your anti-freedom, anti-religion ideology. North Korea perhaps!

I have to agree with these muslim people. If they want to be idiots and kill themselves because of their religion, who are we to stop them?

Damnit, Risottia, look what you've done.

Mad hatters in jeans wrote:

Soviet Taoistan wrote:I'm not Muslim but I very conveniently took a course on Islamic law this summer. From what I remember, the following passages could be cited in this case.

We will ease you to the Easy Way . (Qur'an, 87:8)

… He has selected you and not placed any constraint upon you in the observance of your religion—the religion of your forefather Abraham… (Qur'an, 22:78)

"Make things easy for the people, and do not make it difficult for them, and make them calm (with glad tidings) and do not repulse (them)." (Bukhari Hadith)

If practice is too hard then the follower is allowed to skip some aspects of ritual or observance. That is why travellers can skip or delay fasting and so on and so forth. On of my old professors said Islam is meant to ease hardship, not create it. That is why his courses were kind of easy...

So these guys... I think they should be drinking zee water.

EDIT: Oh, and Muslim are supposed to follow the laws of the country they reside in... so if the gov says drink then then zee guys should drink.

Islamic law? i'm a little concerned that a religion has any say in the affairs of laws now.
how old fashioned is that? Islamic law, that'd be like Western countries having a Christian law...*shudders*.

I generally have to agree with you. Not very fond of any sort of religious law since authority often becomes equated with the divine. There are wonderfully liberal interpretations of Halakha, Biblical law, and Sharia but the liberal authorities rarely seem to be the ones in power. It would be nice if an Italian imam or ulama would tell these guys they don't have to destroy themselves.

Phenia wrote:

Krypton-Zod wrote:

I'm thinking that the mandatory drinking is a good idea, because safety concerns for workers trump religious traditions, but still, meh. So what do you think?

How about we abolish this nonsense?
After all, ramadan is about following the example of Muhammad (murderer, rapist etc...).

What nonsense - the 1st Amendment? Right-o. How about you move to a nation where they don't have freedom of religion. You know, a place more suited to your anti-freedom, anti-religion ideology. North Korea perhaps!

They're talking about Italy. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution does not apply to Italy.

Soviet Taoistan wrote:It would be nice if an Italian imam or ulama would tell these guys they don't have to destroy themselves.

You'd think someone would come out and say that not having some water under those circumstances would constitute suicide, which is a damning offense under Islamic law.

Milks Empire wrote:They're talking about Italy. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution does not apply to Italy.

Krypton-Zod is most certainly not from Italy and he would surely be happy to "abolish this Muslim nonsense" in America too.

But OK, for Italy, I refer you to the 3rd, 8th, and 19th articles of the Constitution of Italy. Which again support freedom of religion.

Phenia wrote:But OK, for Italy, I refer you to the 3rd, 8th, and 19th articles of the Constitution of Italy. Which again support freedom of religion.

I never said Italy didn't offer those protections.

If someone is stupid enough to follow a religion that causes them to fucking die of dehydration, then as far as I'm concerned, they've done us a favor by removing themselves from the gene pool.

Pevisopolis wrote:Damnit, Risottia, look what you've done.

Ohh!! I <3 ads, *clicks*

Hiddenrun wrote:If someone is stupid enough to follow a religion that causes them to fucking die of dehydration, then as far as I'm concerned, they've done us a favor by removing themselves from the gene pool.

I'll say win, just for the elaboratation involved.

Milks Empire wrote:

Phenia wrote:But OK, for Italy, I refer you to the 3rd, 8th, and 19th articles of the Constitution of Italy. Which again support freedom of religion.

I never said Italy didn't offer those protections.

I never said you said they didn't..

I don't think the workers should be forced to drink water - unless they collapse from heat exhaustion of course. I do think that someone should point out to them that Islamic law does allow one to skip days of Ramadan if necessary and that they may make up those later days at a time of their own choosing. Working during a heatwave would certainly be a reasonable reason for a Muslim to not observe Ramadan. Another point which should be made is that they may splash water on their faces or put ice on their heads to cool down without breaking their fast.

FreeSatania wrote:I don't think the workers should be forced to drink water - unless they collapse from heat exhaustion of course. I do think that someone should point out to them that Islamic law does allow one to skip days of Ramadan if necessary and that they may make up those later days at a time of their own choosing. Working during a heatwave would certainly be a reasonable reason for a Muslim to not observe Ramadan. Another point which should be made is that they may splash water on their faces or put ice on their heads to cool down without breaking their fast.

Yeah they should drink when and what the F*** they want.