NationStates

Soviet Taoistan wrote:
I generally have to agree with you. Not very fond of any sort of religious law since authority often becomes equated with the divine. There are wonderfully liberal interpretations of Halakha, Biblical law, and Sharia but the liberal authorities rarely seem to be the ones in power. It would be nice if an Italian imam or ulama would tell these guys they don't have to destroy themselves.

Not really a liberal interpretation of the Koran I think. They can drink water if they must. If they do they should make an effort to fast on another day of their own choosing to make up for it.

Pregnant women do this all the time!

Well, I suppose if they signed a waiver that eliminated all responsibility on the part of the company they should be free to pursue their patently idiotic decision to kill themselves via heatstroke. Besides, it seems a little bizarre that it would be okay to work yourself to death but not okay to break the fast to drink some water...

Vetalia wrote:Well, I suppose if they signed a waiver that eliminated all responsibility on the part of the company they should be free to pursue their patently idiotic decision to kill themselves via heatstroke. Besides, it seems a little bizarre that it would be okay to work yourself to death but not okay to break the fast to drink some water...

It *is* ok to break the fast though - one just has to make up for it later. I just don't think it's right to *make* people do it.

I think this is really a problem that the Islamic community should deal with not the employer. I think this is more a case of workers simply trying to be macho about observing Ramadan than about following Islamic law. Islamic law provides a pretty clear and voluntary way out for these people.

FreeSatania wrote:It *is* ok to break the fast though - one just has to make up for it later. I just don't think it's right to *make* people do it.

I think this is really a problem that the Islamic community should deal with not the employer. I think this is more a case of workers simply trying to be macho about observing Ramadan than about following Islamic law. Islamic law provides a pretty clear and voluntary way out for these people.

When they're on the job, there's no other option. The company would certainly be liable for their deaths and so there's really no option besides forcing them to keep hydrated, sign a waiver to remove the company's responsibility, or fire them for violating company policies. Regardless, I can see the religious macho bullshit angle for it so I figure some coercion is in order to save them from their own stupidity, or at least keep others from paying for it.

Vetalia wrote:

FreeSatania wrote:It *is* ok to break the fast though - one just has to make up for it later. I just don't think it's right to *make* people do it.

I think this is really a problem that the Islamic community should deal with not the employer. I think this is more a case of workers simply trying to be macho about observing Ramadan than about following Islamic law. Islamic law provides a pretty clear and voluntary way out for these people.

When they're on the job, there's no other option. The company would certainly be liable for their deaths and so there's really no option besides forcing them to keep hydrated, sign a waiver to remove the company's responsibility, or fire them for violating company policies. Regardless, I can see the religious macho bullshit angle for it so I figure some coercion is in order to save them from their own stupidity, or at least keep others from paying for it.

Well there are other options though. Islam is pretty popular in the middle east and from what I hear that place is pretty hot. People have been observing Ramadan for thousands of years despite the heat thought. What they do is a) start work very early (before sun-up) b) not work too hard c) stay cool (one may slash water on the face without breaking the fast d) drink water if they have to to stay alive and then make up the missed day later.

Sierpinskistan wrote:

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:I honestly can't remember much about Islam, so correct me if I'm wrong... Isn't one of the caveats of Islam that life is of tantamount importance and that certain rules may be broken or "ignored" so that a follower may live?

I assume this is correct since the same caveat exists in Judaism. The individual's health is deemed the top priority in Jewish law.

This is an interesting topic, similar to euthanasia. Who does one's life belong to? Who has the right to decide what's best for you?

Also, if you believe that your god has granted you your life, why would you be so eager to squander it? Wouldn't that far outweigh whatever favour you tried to curry by obeying religious law at your peril?

Gawd, I'm just happy that I pulled something out of the hat that is my brain and was right...

We have a similar thing in Australian schools with Muslim students fasting during Ramadan. In some parts of Australia, even during winter (August) temperatures rarely drop below 30 degrees celsius. In cities like Brisbane they can still reach 25+ degrees. Most schools are not airconditioned meaning that the classrooms are often a few degrees hotter than outside. Especially in places where they have demountables as the main type of classroom. So these kids come to school and faint from not eating and the excessive heat. Many schools are at a loss - they don't want to send them home because they don't want their students falling behind and they are concerned about discrimination complaints, but they also don't want the risk of being sued by parents because their child got seriously ill because of the heat and lack of food.

It's a difficult situation.

FreeSatania wrote:Well there are other options though. Islam is pretty popular in the middle east and from what I hear that place is pretty hot. People have been observing Ramadan for thousands of years despite the heat thought. What they do is a) start work very early (before sun-up) b) not work too hard c) stay cool (one may slash water on the face without breaking the fast d) drink water if they have to to stay alive and then make up the missed day later.

Yeah, you'd think a religion that originated in the desert might have a pretty sound basis for keeping its followers alive in hot, dry conditions...I think these guys are just idiots who should either find a way to keep themselves from dropping dead or find another job.

I don't understand why Ramadan includes not drinking water. I mean, I always thought that fasting involved not eating and maybe not drinking anything other than water.

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:

Sierpinskistan wrote:

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:I honestly can't remember much about Islam, so correct me if I'm wrong... Isn't one of the caveats of Islam that life is of tantamount importance and that certain rules may be broken or "ignored" so that a follower may live?

I assume this is correct since the same caveat exists in Judaism. The individual's health is deemed the top priority in Jewish law.

This is an interesting topic, similar to euthanasia. Who does one's life belong to? Who has the right to decide what's best for you?

Also, if you believe that your god has granted you your life, why would you be so eager to squander it? Wouldn't that far outweigh whatever favour you tried to curry by obeying religious law at your peril?

Gawd, I'm just happy that I pulled something out of the hat that is my brain and was right...

From what I have learn taking religious studies courses...

If you don't know an answer about a basic tenet of Islam on a topic, you have more then a 9 in 10 chance of getting the question right if you know the answer for Judaism.

If you don't know that answer for Judaism, try the answer for Christianity and you will be right about half the time.

If you for some reason know the answer for Rastas, answer the question and go for a smoke afterwards.

Praise Jah.

Well, its fine and dandy if a person wants to kill themselves, but its rude to do it when your on the clock and somebody else has to drag your dead body off their property.

I don't care what those damn dirty muslims do, I want meh melons. Delicious, juicy melons.

Melons...

FreeSatania wrote:

Vetalia wrote:Well, I suppose if they signed a waiver that eliminated all responsibility on the part of the company they should be free to pursue their patently idiotic decision to kill themselves via heatstroke. Besides, it seems a little bizarre that it would be okay to work yourself to death but not okay to break the fast to drink some water...

It *is* ok to break the fast though - one just has to make up for it later. I just don't think it's right to *make* people do it.

I think this is really a problem that the Islamic community should deal with not the employer. I think this is more a case of workers simply trying to be macho about observing Ramadan than about following Islamic law. Islamic law provides a pretty clear and voluntary way out for these people.

anyone ever consider that islamic law does not apply? It is not real law, it's just a bunch of stuff made up by the bloodthirsty warmonger Muhammad.

Death> Religion.

Kahanistan wrote:I think it's too authoritarian for my liking. If someone is willing to risk heatstroke for Allah (Jesus, Buddha, Elvis, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.) that's their choice.

Problem is that, by Italian law, the employer is somewhat responsible for enforcing safety and health measures on the workers. That is, if a worker dies of dishydratation because he refused to drink, his death can be blamed on the employer too.

Risottia wrote:

Kahanistan wrote:I think it's too authoritarian for my liking. If someone is willing to risk heatstroke for Allah (Jesus, Buddha, Elvis, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.) that's their choice.

Problem is that, by Italian law, the employer is somewhat responsible for enforcing safety and health measures on the workers. That is, if a worker dies of dishydratation because he refused to drink, his death can be blamed on the employer too.

And the law is good, if people don't like that they shouldn't live in Italy. Always the same with the religious folks though, always demanding exemptions to laws and then crying persecution when they do not get them.

Kahanistan wrote:I think it's too authoritarian for my liking. If someone is willing to risk heatstroke for Allah (Jesus, Buddha, Elvis, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.) that's their choice. Hell, it might be better for the gene pool if some of the more fundamentalist followers killed themselves.

Indeed! Darwin Awards to the people who died. And change the laws so if someone risks his health out of religious reasons, as long as he or she does not risk the life of others, the employer is not at fault.

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:I think that if someone is going to insist on doing his job unsafely, regardless of the reason or motivation, the employer has every right to make sure that employee does it for some other employer.

Pretty much that. If you can't do your job without passing out, then I'm gonna go right ahead and say you can't do your job.

Dakini wrote:I don't understand why Ramadan includes not drinking water. I mean, I always thought that fasting involved not eating and maybe not drinking anything other than water.

It would make more sense that way, wouldn't it?

Dakini wrote:I don't understand why Ramadan includes not drinking water. I mean, I always thought that fasting involved not eating and maybe not drinking anything other than water.

I did as well - and it makes sense that if one is fasting, one can still drink water - frankly though, I gave up on understanding the reasoning for that a long time ago because I couldn't wrap my head around it.

Kryozerkia wrote:

Dakini wrote:I don't understand why Ramadan includes not drinking water. I mean, I always thought that fasting involved not eating and maybe not drinking anything other than water.

I did as well - and it makes sense that if one is fasting, one can still drink water - frankly though, I gave up on understanding the reasoning for that a long time ago because I couldn't wrap my head around it.

It would appear that their fasting is different.

Kahanistan wrote:I think it's too authoritarian for my liking. If someone is willing to risk heatstroke for Allah (Jesus, Buddha, Elvis, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.) that's their choice. Hell, it might be better for the gene pool if some of the more fundamentalist followers killed themselves.

Classical Liberal wrote:I have to agree with these muslim people. If they want to be idiots and kill themselves because of their religion, who are we to stop them?

it gets in the way of the melon harvesting, its not just them being stupid its them also being dangerous!

FreeSatania wrote:I don't think the workers should be forced to drink water - unless they collapse from heat exhaustion of course.

I think they should for health and safety's sake

Saint Jade IV wrote:Most schools are not airconditioned

wait but science has told me that Australia is habitable and inhabited by humans instead of some weird sentient puddle people

The South Islands wrote:Melons

I find it amusing that Mrs Barnerby down the road has had her melons repeatedly fondled by dirty Muslim hands.

that whore!

Buffett and Colbert wrote:

Dakini wrote:I don't understand why Ramadan includes not drinking water. I mean, I always thought that fasting involved not eating and maybe not drinking anything other than water.

It would make more sense that way, wouldn't it?

if it made sense, it wouldn't be religion.

Saint Jade IV wrote: Most schools are not airconditioned meaning that the classrooms are often a few degrees hotter than outside.

Usually in developed countries where it gets really hot alot, air conditioning is a given. In fact, schools here were running half-days because the AC was out.

Saint Jade IV wrote:It's a difficult situation.

Do they just not sell airconditioners in Australia?

Dakini wrote:I don't understand why Ramadan includes not drinking water. I mean, I always thought that fasting involved not eating and maybe not drinking anything other than water.

Our fasting is different. You start at dawn and end at twilight. In the hours between, no eating or drinking. In Muslim-majority countries there is a shorter work and school day to ease the hunger and the thirst. Some people can't take it and some people find it too easy. I pretty hyper when I'm fasting and hardly notice a difference, in comparison to a dad of a friend who whines and yells at everyone because he can't get his nicotin or caffiene fix in the mornin.