NATION

PASSWORD

Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52250
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
New York Times Democracy

Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Risottia » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:56 am

Many temporary workers in the farms of northern Italy are muslims. Since Ramadan has begun - and northern Italy is under an heatwave (today we're expecting up to 40 °C in the Po Valley), this creates a problem: drinking.
Last years some muslim workers, who chose to adhere strictly to Ramadan, felt ill because of the heat and the hard work of hand-harvesting melons - some of them died of dishydratation and heatshock while working. And next year the problem will be even worse, since Ramadan will fall earlier in the summer.
So the local farmers' commitee (Coldiretti) is willing to enforce, out of safety concerns, drinking during the day also for muslim workers - on pain of being fired for the workers who don't comply.
The local muslim community, though, protests against the mandatory breaking of the Ramadan rules - they do not object to workers drinking to avoid heatshocks, but they say every muslim should decide freely whether to break Ramadan or to adhere strictly.
Of course, if drinking is mandatory we can be sure that muslim workers would drink - while, if not made mandatory, some of the most strict followers could be tempted to push themselves over the limit to avoid breaking the religious rules, and thus risk their own lives.

I think it's an interesting issue. (Oh, and by the way, I think that working by night would be impossible because it would be impossible to provide enough lighting).

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/08/italy-farm-workers-must-drink-during.html

excerpt from link above wrote:Muslim farmhands in Mantua who refuse to drink water ''will be temporarily suspended from work and if they repeat the infraction, they will be fired,'' the committee said. Committee President Roberto Cagliari, who also leads the Mantua chapter of agricultural organisation Coldiretti, said the decision had been taken in order to protect workers in the province's tomato and melon fields. ''We made the order because we want to safeguard the health of our workers as much as possible,'' he said. ''The refusal to drink water on the part of various farmhands in melon fields during Ramadan last year created considerable problems''.

But a representative of the Mantuan Islamic community, Ben Mansour, said the order was illegal and unnecessary. ''There is no work contract and no legal provision requiring us to drink during Ramadan and if any Muslim worker is fired for this, then we will contest it,'' he said. ''If a Muslim farmhand feels unwell, he can take a break and if he then realises that the feeling is not a passing one, he may take a drink. ''But that is his own decision and no one else should be able to force that on him''.


I'm thinking that the mandatory drinking is a good idea, because safety concerns for workers trump religious traditions, but still, meh. So what do you think?
Statanist through and through.
Evilutionist Atheist Crusadjihadist. "Darwinu Akhbar! Dawkins vult!"
Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
I'm back.
SUMMER, BLOODY SUMMER!

User avatar
Christmahanikwanzikah
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12073
Founded: Nov 24, 2006
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Christmahanikwanzikah » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:04 am

I honestly can't remember much about Islam, so correct me if I'm wrong... Isn't one of the caveats of Islam that life is of tantamount importance and that certain rules may be broken or "ignored" so that a follower may live?

User avatar
Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52250
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
New York Times Democracy

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Risottia » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:11 am

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:I honestly can't remember much about Islam, so correct me if I'm wrong... Isn't one of the caveats of Islam that life is of tantamount importance and that certain rules may be broken or "ignored" so that a follower may live?


Iirc, yes... but there you are, when it's 10 in the morning, the temperature is 40 °C, humidity is 80%, and you've been working in the fields since 5 o'clock, it's likely that you can't even reckon that you're getting seriously ill, I guess.
Statanist through and through.
Evilutionist Atheist Crusadjihadist. "Darwinu Akhbar! Dawkins vult!"
Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
I'm back.
SUMMER, BLOODY SUMMER!

User avatar
Christmahanikwanzikah
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12073
Founded: Nov 24, 2006
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Christmahanikwanzikah » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:44 am

Risottia wrote:
Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:I honestly can't remember much about Islam, so correct me if I'm wrong... Isn't one of the caveats of Islam that life is of tantamount importance and that certain rules may be broken or "ignored" so that a follower may live?


Iirc, yes... but there you are, when it's 10 in the morning, the temperature is 40 °C, humidity is 80%, and you've been working in the fields since 5 o'clock, it's likely that you can't even reckon that you're getting seriously ill, I guess.


That's really all you can do - work early. I would even support working at 3-4 in the morning, just to beat the heat. I've heard a few tales about construction workers here beating 100F heat by late morning by beginning their work day by 3 or 4 am, just so they could pour their grout without having to worry about setting too fast.

Only here, they'd work early to try to avoid heat exhaustion.

User avatar
Lunatic Goofballs
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 23565
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:39 am

I think that if someone is going to insist on doing his job unsafely, regardless of the reason or motivation, the employer has every right to make sure that employee does it for some other employer. :p
Life's Short. Munch Tacos.

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter S. Thompson

User avatar
Call to power
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6908
Founded: Apr 13, 2005
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Call to power » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:59 am

get the IV's out?

balls to religious custom if they want to kill themselves they can be polite and not let it get in the way of my precious melons (though I'm amazed we have to babysit adults like fecking children on the matter)
The Parkus Empire wrote:Theoretically, why would anyone put anytime into anything but tobacco, intoxicants and sex?

Vareiln wrote:My god, CtP is right...
Not that you haven't been right before, but... Aw, hell, you get what I meant.

Tubbsalot wrote:replace my opinions with CtP's.


User avatar
Kahanistan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1643
Founded: May 30, 2005
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Kahanistan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:12 am

I think it's too authoritarian for my liking. If someone is willing to risk heatstroke for Allah (Jesus, Buddha, Elvis, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.) that's their choice. Hell, it might be better for the gene pool if some of the more fundamentalist followers killed themselves.

User avatar
Soviet Taoistan
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 25
Founded: Jun 16, 2005
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Soviet Taoistan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:53 am

I'm not Muslim but I very conveniently took a course on Islamic law this summer. From what I remember, the following passages could be cited in this case.

We will ease you to the Easy Way . (Qur'an, 87:8)

… He has selected you and not placed any constraint upon you in the observance of your religion—the religion of your forefather Abraham… (Qur'an, 22:78)

"Make things easy for the people, and do not make it difficult for them, and make them calm (with glad tidings) and do not repulse (them)." (Bukhari Hadith)

If practice is too hard then the follower is allowed to skip some aspects of ritual or observance. That is why travellers can skip or delay fasting and so on and so forth. On of my old professors said Islam is meant to ease hardship, not create it. That is why his courses were kind of easy...

So these guys... I think they should be drinking zee water.

EDIT: Oh, and Muslim are supposed to follow the laws of the country they reside in... so if the gov says drink then then zee guys should drink.
Last edited by Soviet Taoistan on Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Buffett and Colbert
Post Czar
 
Posts: 32382
Founded: Oct 05, 2008
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Buffett and Colbert » Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:57 am

It should be their choice whether they want to kill themselves or not. But whoever they are working for HAS TO MAKE IT CLEAR that they are working at their own risk, otherwise, they'd be sued to oblivion (assuming Italy is anything like the US).
If the knowledge isn't useful, you haven't found the lesson yet. ~Iniika
You-Gi-Owe wrote:If someone were to ask me about your online persona as a standard of your "date-ability", I'd rate you as "worth investigating further & passionate about beliefs". But, enough of the idle speculation on why you didn't score with the opposite gender.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Clever, but your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me.

His Jedi mind tricks are insignificant compared to the power of Buffy's sex appeal.
Keronians wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:My law class took my virginity. And it was 100% consensual.

I accuse your precious law class of statutory rape.

User avatar
Sierpinskistan
Secretary
 
Posts: 37
Founded: Jul 30, 2009
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Sierpinskistan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:43 am

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:I honestly can't remember much about Islam, so correct me if I'm wrong... Isn't one of the caveats of Islam that life is of tantamount importance and that certain rules may be broken or "ignored" so that a follower may live?


I assume this is correct since the same caveat exists in Judaism. The individual's health is deemed the top priority in Jewish law.

This is an interesting topic, similar to euthanasia. Who does one's life belong to? Who has the right to decide what's best for you?

Also, if you believe that your god has granted you your life, why would you be so eager to squander it? Wouldn't that far outweigh whatever favour you tried to curry by obeying religious law at your peril?

User avatar
Mad hatters in jeans
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19119
Founded: Nov 14, 2007
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:22 am

Soviet Taoistan wrote:I'm not Muslim but I very conveniently took a course on Islamic law this summer. From what I remember, the following passages could be cited in this case.

We will ease you to the Easy Way . (Qur'an, 87:8)

… He has selected you and not placed any constraint upon you in the observance of your religion—the religion of your forefather Abraham… (Qur'an, 22:78)

"Make things easy for the people, and do not make it difficult for them, and make them calm (with glad tidings) and do not repulse (them)." (Bukhari Hadith)

If practice is too hard then the follower is allowed to skip some aspects of ritual or observance. That is why travellers can skip or delay fasting and so on and so forth. On of my old professors said Islam is meant to ease hardship, not create it. That is why his courses were kind of easy...

So these guys... I think they should be drinking zee water.

EDIT: Oh, and Muslim are supposed to follow the laws of the country they reside in... so if the gov says drink then then zee guys should drink.

Islamic law? i'm a little concerned that a religion has any say in the affairs of laws now.
how old fashioned is that? Islamic law, that'd be like Western countries having a Christian law...*shudders*.

User avatar
Krypton-Zod
Diplomat
 
Posts: 525
Founded: Jul 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Krypton-Zod » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:48 pm

I'm thinking that the mandatory drinking is a good idea, because safety concerns for workers trump religious traditions, but still, meh. So what do you think?


How about we abolish this nonsense?

After all, ramadan is about following the example of Muhammad (murderer, rapist etc...).
I am general Zod, your ruler. Yes, today begins a new order.
Your lands, your possessions, your very lives will gladly be given in tribute to me, general Zod.
In return for your obedience, you will enjoy my generous protection.
In other words, you will be allowed to live.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Religion must be true, because 'it says so in a book'... ROTFLMAO!

User avatar
Phenia
Senator
 
Posts: 3809
Founded: May 06, 2009
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Phenia » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:18 pm

Krypton-Zod wrote:
I'm thinking that the mandatory drinking is a good idea, because safety concerns for workers trump religious traditions, but still, meh. So what do you think?


How about we abolish this nonsense?

After all, ramadan is about following the example of Muhammad (murderer, rapist etc...).


What nonsense - the 1st Amendment? Right-o. How about you move to a nation where they don't have freedom of religion. You know, a place more suited to your anti-freedom, anti-religion ideology. North Korea perhaps!

User avatar
Classical Liberal
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 193
Founded: Aug 22, 2009
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Classical Liberal » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:22 pm

I have to agree with these muslim people. If they want to be idiots and kill themselves because of their religion, who are we to stop them?
"New" liberal: Freedom Hating, Gun Despising, Capitalism Regulating, Baby Killing, Atheist, Pansie

I'm Perfect, I Thought I Wasn't Once But I Was Mistaken

Quotes:
"The Strongest Reason For The People To Retain The Right To Keep And Bear Arms Is As A Last Resort, To Protect Themselves Against the Tyranny In Government" ~ Thomas Jefferson

"All, Too, Will Bear In Mind This Sacred Principle, That Though The Will Of The Majority Is In All Cases To Prevail, That Will To Be Rightful Must Be Reasonable; That The Minority Possess Their Equal Rights, Which Equal Law Must Protect, And To Violate Would Be Oppression" ~ Thomas Jefferson

Chetssaland wrote:*points at fat, stupid, arrogant guy and democrat senator "Its your fault everyone hates us."

User avatar
Pevisopolis
Minister
 
Posts: 2370
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Pevisopolis » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:29 pm

Damnit, Risottia, look what you've done.



Image
Jesus God almighty man, look at that lot over there! They've spotted us!

User avatar
Soviet Taoistan
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 25
Founded: Jun 16, 2005
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Soviet Taoistan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:51 pm

Mad hatters in jeans wrote:
Soviet Taoistan wrote:I'm not Muslim but I very conveniently took a course on Islamic law this summer. From what I remember, the following passages could be cited in this case.

We will ease you to the Easy Way . (Qur'an, 87:8)

… He has selected you and not placed any constraint upon you in the observance of your religion—the religion of your forefather Abraham… (Qur'an, 22:78)

"Make things easy for the people, and do not make it difficult for them, and make them calm (with glad tidings) and do not repulse (them)." (Bukhari Hadith)

If practice is too hard then the follower is allowed to skip some aspects of ritual or observance. That is why travellers can skip or delay fasting and so on and so forth. On of my old professors said Islam is meant to ease hardship, not create it. That is why his courses were kind of easy...

So these guys... I think they should be drinking zee water.

EDIT: Oh, and Muslim are supposed to follow the laws of the country they reside in... so if the gov says drink then then zee guys should drink.

Islamic law? i'm a little concerned that a religion has any say in the affairs of laws now.
how old fashioned is that? Islamic law, that'd be like Western countries having a Christian law...*shudders*.


I generally have to agree with you. Not very fond of any sort of religious law since authority often becomes equated with the divine. There are wonderfully liberal interpretations of Halakha, Biblical law, and Sharia but the liberal authorities rarely seem to be the ones in power. It would be nice if an Italian imam or ulama would tell these guys they don't have to destroy themselves.

User avatar
Milks Empire
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21069
Founded: Aug 02, 2008
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Milks Empire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:08 pm

Phenia wrote:
Krypton-Zod wrote:
I'm thinking that the mandatory drinking is a good idea, because safety concerns for workers trump religious traditions, but still, meh. So what do you think?

How about we abolish this nonsense?
After all, ramadan is about following the example of Muhammad (murderer, rapist etc...).

What nonsense - the 1st Amendment? Right-o. How about you move to a nation where they don't have freedom of religion. You know, a place more suited to your anti-freedom, anti-religion ideology. North Korea perhaps!

They're talking about Italy. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution does not apply to Italy.

Soviet Taoistan wrote:It would be nice if an Italian imam or ulama would tell these guys they don't have to destroy themselves.

You'd think someone would come out and say that not having some water under those circumstances would constitute suicide, which is a damning offense under Islamic law.
Last edited by Milks Empire on Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Phenia
Senator
 
Posts: 3809
Founded: May 06, 2009
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Phenia » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:24 pm

Milks Empire wrote:They're talking about Italy. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution does not apply to Italy.


Krypton-Zod is most certainly not from Italy and he would surely be happy to "abolish this Muslim nonsense" in America too.

But OK, for Italy, I refer you to the 3rd, 8th, and 19th articles of the Constitution of Italy. Which again support freedom of religion.

User avatar
Milks Empire
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21069
Founded: Aug 02, 2008
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Milks Empire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:26 pm

Phenia wrote:But OK, for Italy, I refer you to the 3rd, 8th, and 19th articles of the Constitution of Italy. Which again support freedom of religion.

:palm:
I never said Italy didn't offer those protections.

User avatar
Hiddenrun
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1145
Founded: Jul 29, 2009
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Hiddenrun » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:27 pm

If someone is stupid enough to follow a religion that causes them to fucking die of dehydration, then as far as I'm concerned, they've done us a favor by removing themselves from the gene pool.
Holder of unpopular opinions.

User avatar
Rhodmhire
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17421
Founded: Jun 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Rhodmhire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:35 pm

Pevisopolis wrote:Damnit, Risottia, look what you've done.



Image


Ohh!! I <3 ads, *clicks*
Part of me grew up here. But part of growing up is leaving parts of ourselves behind.

User avatar
Rhodmhire
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17421
Founded: Jun 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Rhodmhire » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:38 pm

Hiddenrun wrote:If someone is stupid enough to follow a religion that causes them to fucking die of dehydration, then as far as I'm concerned, they've done us a favor by removing themselves from the gene pool.


I'll say win, just for the elaboratation involved.
Part of me grew up here. But part of growing up is leaving parts of ourselves behind.

User avatar
Phenia
Senator
 
Posts: 3809
Founded: May 06, 2009
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Phenia » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:39 pm

Milks Empire wrote:
Phenia wrote:But OK, for Italy, I refer you to the 3rd, 8th, and 19th articles of the Constitution of Italy. Which again support freedom of religion.

:palm:
I never said Italy didn't offer those protections.


I never said you said they didn't..

User avatar
FreeSatania
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1274
Founded: May 26, 2008
Ex-Nation

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby FreeSatania » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:47 pm

I don't think the workers should be forced to drink water - unless they collapse from heat exhaustion of course. I do think that someone should point out to them that Islamic law does allow one to skip days of Ramadan if necessary and that they may make up those later days at a time of their own choosing. Working during a heatwave would certainly be a reasonable reason for a Muslim to not observe Ramadan. Another point which should be made is that they may splash water on their faces or put ice on their heads to cool down without breaking their fast.

User avatar
Taeshan
Senator
 
Posts: 4528
Founded: Aug 11, 2007
New York Times Democracy

Re: Melons, heatwave and Ramadan

Postby Taeshan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:50 pm

FreeSatania wrote:I don't think the workers should be forced to drink water - unless they collapse from heat exhaustion of course. I do think that someone should point out to them that Islamic law does allow one to skip days of Ramadan if necessary and that they may make up those later days at a time of their own choosing. Working during a heatwave would certainly be a reasonable reason for a Muslim to not observe Ramadan. Another point which should be made is that they may splash water on their faces or put ice on their heads to cool down without breaking their fast.


Yeah they should drink when and what the F*** they want.
Champions - Copa Rushmori 22, Di Bradini Cup 19, World Baseball Classic 13, Cup of Harmony 35, World Lacrosse Championship 2, Gridiron World Championships (World Bowl 0), World Bowl 34

World Cup Qualifications-41, 44, 46, 59, 61(RoS), 62(Quarterfinals), 63 (RoS), 64 (Quarterfinals), 83

Hosts-Cup of Harmony 55, Copa Rushmori 14

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Agarntrop, Des-Bal, Diopolis, Dumb Ideologies, Fahran, Fartsniffage, Galloism, Google Adsense [Bot], Great Southland, Hirota, Juristonia, Kiruri, Linux and the X, Manasseh Zion, Manchuria, MSN [Bot], Page, Samudera Darussalam, Shrillland, Sodoran Alesia, South Odreria 2, Sovaal, Speshal squad, Sroomiea, Stellar Colonies, The East Marches II, The Huskar Social Union, Treznor, Uiiop, Vassenor, Victorious Decepticons, Vistulange, Zixu

Advertisement

Remove ads