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Who decides what is good and bad?

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Episarta
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Postby Episarta » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:40 pm

It's not wrong to kill the man, it's not right to kill the man. Right and wrong, like good and bad, are subjective. Frankly, it doesn't affect me personally so I don't give a shit. So no, it's not right and it's not wrong. People and their society choose what is right and wrong. But if a group of people say it's alright to commit genocide, and another says it's wrong, the majority is the one that is right. Whoever has the most power and numbers is right. Not that I agree with genocide, for the most part atleast, but just because I may think it's wrong doesn't make it wrong.

All of these right and wrong, good and bad, whatever, is all subjective and the laws based on these arbitrary "definate" morals really have no basis other than "it's bad because we don't like it!"
But if it has some sort of physical, social, economical, etc. downside, then I would think most would say something is bad.

Take genocide for example again, it could take quite a toll on an economy, physical and mental well-being, social harmony (atleast at first I suppose) international opinion, and so on. So I suppose that would be what would make it "bad" to the general public.
Last edited by Episarta on Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Coccygia
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Postby Coccygia » Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:39 pm

Since everything is just subjective can I kill you and take your money? Actually I'll settle for just the money.
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Truvada
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Postby Truvada » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:09 pm

Something is good, or ethical if it is pro-survival.

Something is bad, or unethical if it harms or lessens your survival.

People, actions, or things which factually mean you harm are bad.

Seems to me this has a lot to do with right/wrong dichotomy too.

If something causes you harm, how would it be good?

Cigarettes may feel good at one time, but the pain of throat or lung cancer later on is the indicator that smoking was a bad choice.

But smokers could probably recall painful symptoms of their bodies reacting against smoking when they first started, symptoms which probably outweigh the nicotine buzz.
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Chinese Regions
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Postby Chinese Regions » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:30 pm

The game developers
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Furious Grandmothers
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Postby Furious Grandmothers » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:05 am

Coccygia wrote:Since everything is just subjective can I kill you and take your money? Actually I'll settle for just the money.

Sure you can, it isn't wrong, neither is it right.

But not before I take yours first.
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Furious Grandmothers
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Postby Furious Grandmothers » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:06 am

Chinese Regions wrote:The point of life is life itself; to prevent extinction, the simplest way to prevent the death of a species is to prevent the deaths of that species' individual members. Our DNA says it is bad to kill fellow human beings.

Do you mean we have evolved such that our DNA makes us subjectively feel "bad" to kill fellow human beings, or that it is factually bad to kill fellow human beings?
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Furious Grandmothers
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Postby Furious Grandmothers » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:07 am

Truvada wrote:Something is good, or ethical if it is pro-survival.

Something is bad, or unethical if it harms or lessens your survival.

People, actions, or things which factually mean you harm are bad.

Seems to me this has a lot to do with right/wrong dichotomy too.

If something causes you harm, how would it be good?

Cigarettes may feel good at one time, but the pain of throat or lung cancer later on is the indicator that smoking was a bad choice.

But smokers could probably recall painful symptoms of their bodies reacting against smoking when they first started, symptoms which probably outweigh the nicotine buzz.

Tell that to stunt actors :P Jumping off a building so that the real Tom Cruise doesn't have to! I mean, how unethical is that!
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Andaluciae
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Postby Andaluciae » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:10 am

He is wrong for killing, because I fucking say so.

Sometimes you gotta be the bottom turtle all on your own.
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Sovereign Spirits
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Postby Sovereign Spirits » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:13 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:My conscience is my sole authority in regards to ethics.


Andaluciae wrote:He is wrong for killing, because I fucking say so.

Sometimes you gotta be the bottom turtle all on your own.


/thread
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Coccygia
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Postby Coccygia » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:09 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:My conscience is my sole authority in regards to ethics.

Uh-huh...and you're the guy who was sticking up for Harry Lime in another thread... :eyebrow:
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:28 pm

Coccygia wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:My conscience is my sole authority in regards to ethics.

Uh-huh...and you're the guy who was sticking up for Harry Lime in another thread... :eyebrow:

I said that there's a distinction between being amoral and sadistic, as you you conflated the two. I am neither, nor was I the subject of the Harry Lime comparison.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Coccygia
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Postby Coccygia » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:42 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Coccygia wrote:Uh-huh...and you're the guy who was sticking up for Harry Lime in another thread... :eyebrow:

I said that there's a distinction between being amoral and sadistic, as you you conflated the two. I am neither, nor was I the subject of the Harry Lime comparison.

OK, you're not Harry Lime...but I conflated the two? Well, if you're the victim it doesn't matter much if the guy is enjoying your horrible death or not.
"Nobody deserves anything. You get what you get." - House
"Hope is for sissies." - House
“Qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy." - The Voynich Manuscript
"We're not ordinary people - we're morons!" - Jerome Horwitz
"A book, any book, is a sacred object." - Jorge Luis Borges
"I am a survivor. I am like a cockroach, you just can't get rid of me." - Madonna
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:14 pm

Coccygia wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:I said that there's a distinction between being amoral and sadistic, as you you conflated the two. I am neither, nor was I the subject of the Harry Lime comparison.

OK, you're not Harry Lime...but I conflated the two? Well, if you're the victim it doesn't matter much if the guy is enjoying your horrible death or not.

Yeah, see, you're just saying that they're the same thing because both are bad. If you die on the operating table, under sedation, or if you die by getting sniped through the head, it makes little difference to the victim, too.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Volnotova
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Postby Volnotova » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:22 pm

Land of Germany wrote:Scenario:
A man kills a man for one reason: he felt like killing. The only reason the man killed the man is because he just felt like it. Period.


Question: was the man wrong or right for killing the man?


Neither, as an amoral and anti-moralistic person I just don't seem to understand certain people and their general morality fetisch.

Shit happens, we can go on and on about wether is it ethical or not, but in the end it won't fix the problem, it won't feed the hungry, it won't protect the oppressed, etc.

To me(and many others) discussions regarding morality are inherently fallacious and if your desire is to fix problems; and utter waste of time.

[quote]If you answer "he is not wrong/right for killing," why?
How did you obtain the authority to deem an act either right or wrong?

I am not. Yet I would answer "No, he is not immoral".

That is the problem with moralists; to an amoral person every act is morally neutral, to a moralist an act is either moral or immoral.

Not only that, in order to even be able to seriously claim that your moral high highground has got even a tiny bit of validity you will first have to claim that life it self has a goal.

Morality without an inherent goal in life is hollow. But to be exact; all ethical codes are hollow.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:28 pm

I'm answering the question in the title.
The answer is me.
I decide what I consider good or bad. I am the maker of my own moral code.
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Nacional-Socialist Russia
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Postby Nacional-Socialist Russia » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:34 pm

well,it depends on the victim,everyone will like if you kill a bad guy,a terrorist or kadaffi,but no one will like if you kill,obama,a child,or a humanitarian aid worker.
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Burning Passion
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Postby Burning Passion » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:03 pm

Land of Germany wrote:Scenario:
A man kills a man for one reason: he felt like killing. The only reason the man killed the man is because he just felt like it. Period.


Question: was the man wrong or right for killing the man?

If you answer "he is wrong for killing," why?
If you answer "he is not wrong/right for killing," why?
How did you obtain the authority to deem an act either right or wrong?

(Answer from a 'big-picture' perspective, if that makes sense.)



No one, in ALL of history, has killed some one because, 'he felt like killing', There is always a reason, whether he likes the felling of power or superiority killing others gives him or what, there is always a reason.

That being said, Society decides what is 'right' and 'wrong' within their area of influence, take ww2 for example, Hitler decided it was okay to do Bad Things to Jews, Gypsies, the mentally and physically infirm, etc, the Allies decided that that was NOT okay, and acted to semi temporarily increase their area of influence in order to enforce their definition of 'right' and 'wrong'.
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Postby Cameroi » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:01 pm

"who" is a british fantasy about time travel. ain't got squat to do with good and bad.

that which benefits is good, that which harms is bad, and there ain't no who what's got twiddly to do with it.
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Nacional-Socialist Russia
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Postby Nacional-Socialist Russia » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:22 pm

Cameroi wrote:"who" is a british fantasy about time travel. ain't got squat to do with good and bad.

that which benefits is good, that which harms is bad, and there ain't no who what's got twiddly to do with it.


"who" is a doctor,doctor who.

got it,but he still does not have fuckjhitlers with good or bad.
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Postby Meridiani Planum » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:45 am

Land of Germany wrote:How did you obtain the authority to deem an act either right or wrong?


In principle, it comes from an understanding of what makes an act either right or wrong. I don't believe that it is purely subjective, such that anything goes. Rather, it comes from an understanding of the facts of reality that lead to standards of ethical judgment.
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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:33 am

I don't decide what's good and bad. But I do decide what's fun and not fun. And that's good. :)
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Ovisterra
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Postby Ovisterra » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:08 am

It's about personal morals. Everyone has their own idea of good and bad.
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Pope Joan
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Postby Pope Joan » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:15 am

If a dog is rabid I react by working with the community to eliminate the threat.

If a human is acting like a rabid dog and seems likely to continue to be a threat, I will work with the community to contain or eliminate that threat.

"Right" and "wrong" are not useful cognitive categories here.
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Coccygia
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Postby Coccygia » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:30 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Coccygia wrote:OK, you're not Harry Lime...but I conflated the two? Well, if you're the victim it doesn't matter much if the guy is enjoying your horrible death or not.

Yeah, see, you're just saying that they're the same thing because both are bad. If you die on the operating table, under sedation, or if you die by getting sniped through the head, it makes little difference to the victim, too.

If somebody is amoral a la Harry Lime they would see nothing wrong with torturing someone to death just for laughs. Not Mr. Lime's thing, I admit, but consider the Marquis de Sade, for example. Amoral with a taste for inflicting pain (mostly in his fiction, admittedly.) Or mobsters like Whitey Bulger. The two things overlap and are both reprehensible.
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:47 pm

Coccygia wrote:If somebody is amoral a la Harry Lime they would see nothing wrong with torturing someone to death just for laughs. Not Mr. Lime's thing, I admit, but consider the Marquis de Sade, for example. Amoral with a taste for inflicting pain (mostly in his fiction, admittedly.) Or mobsters like Whitey Bulger. The two things overlap and are both reprehensible.


I'm saying that Harry Lime didn't derive satisfaction directly from the suffering of others, and thus isn't a good example to use for an immoral (it looks like you're using "amoral" to mean "immoral", here) sadist. I mean, fuck, out of all the comparisons you could have drawn from abundant literature and history to someone who wanted to rape and torture just 'cuz, Harry Lime was a poor option. Marquis de Sade would have been much more apt. Bulger, not so much, as he wasn't a sociopath despite his being sadistic.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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