Is God Evil?

[Genivaria]

So, NSers, do you agree that God is evil?

Which God?

Mainly the Judeo-Christian one, Yahweh.

[United States of Cascadia]

*cough* Yeah... How old are you? Have you done any research outside your Bible study class? No? Ok.

Currently the historical varacity of the Exodus from Egypt is highly questioned, as is the actual treatment/usage of slaves. Currently there is very little evidence of any mass Jewish immigration/enslavment in Egypt, or even a mass immigration out of Egypt. And what little evidence there is suggests that those who went were not women and children and such... but mercenary soldiers that Egypt had captured.

There is also a lack of evidence in the infant slaugthering department, on both sides.

Now, onto the treatment of slaves... Overall there were not many slaves kept in Egypt. Most labor was done by farmers in the off-season, or those in poverty, in exchange for food and shelter for as long as the project lasted. Slaves that were there were only kept by the upper class, and were actually treated quite well, as it was seen at that time that the quality of the slaves and servants reflected the quality of the household.

So it would be an understatement to say that The Prince of Egypt was inaccurate?

No, not at all, it would be like saying Fox News lies.

[Seperates]

O.K. I'll bite. How many plagues did God order Moses to send upon Egypt ? All of them to no avail because the Egypt's king hardened his heart and wouldn't (refused) to free the Israelite slaves. How many times would you expect your boss to tell you to do something before he finally fired you ? The killing of Egypt's first born was a lesson to Egypt and to ALL mankind that God Almighty doesn't play games. A lesson that the reprobates haven't (apparently) learned yet. Now you are going to quote me some verses that mention how one should treat their slaves and put forth the argument that God condones slavery. Whatever, perhaps he did, a long time ago, I wasn't there, and I'm unable to ask Him. What I got from the "slave verses" was that you shouldn't mistreat slaves, but that's just me. Now, you're going to cite the fact that one of God's prophets got angry and had a bear come out of some bushes and devour some children that were making fun of him (the prophet). Once again, I say, whatever, the little jerks probably deserved it. This is why we have rioting in London right now, children don't even respect their own parents, how do we expect them to respect total strangers?

Oh yes, this is why we have rioting right now... because of lack of respect for an invisible man in the sky. God doesn't play games, does he? What is life to you Christians but a large game before the eternal afterlife? Why put us through this if not for his personal enjoyment? Before you start laying strawmen, why don't you look at the world around you and for Christssake think alittle.

[Seperates]

*cough* Yeah... How old are you? Have you done any research outside your Bible study class? No? Ok.

Currently the historical varacity of the Exodus from Egypt is highly questioned, as is the actual treatment/usage of slaves. Currently there is very little evidence of any mass Jewish immigration/enslavment in Egypt, or even a mass immigration out of Egypt. And what little evidence there is suggests that those who went were not women and children and such... but mercenary soldiers that Egypt had captured.

There is also a lack of evidence in the infant slaugthering department, on both sides.

Now, onto the treatment of slaves... Overall there were not many slaves kept in Egypt. Most labor was done by farmers in the off-season, or those in poverty, in exchange for food and shelter for as long as the project lasted. Slaves that were there were only kept by the upper class, and were actually treated quite well, as it was seen at that time that the quality of the slaves and servants reflected the quality of the household.

So it would be an understatement to say that The Prince of Egypt was inaccurate?

Pretty much on the level of any other historical Disney movie. Fucking tired of it. History is fucking interesting enough and complicated enough as it is... you don't need to go fuck it up for entertainment purposes.

Although, if we were just going off the (horribly historically inaccurate) Bible it was a pretty good representation.

[Deus in Machina]

O.K. I'll bite. How many plagues did God order Moses to send upon Egypt ? All of them to no avail because the Egypt's king hardened his heart and wouldn't (refused) to free the Israelite slaves.

Exodus 4:21
And the Lord said to Moses "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

God controlled Pharaoh's response. What Pharaoh's answer might have been had he been in control of his own mind, we can't know. But since God is omnipotent, He presumably knew. And He felt the need to make Pharaoh refuse, so presumably he would not have done so of his own volition.
So the ten plagues, the atrocities inflicted upon the Egyptians, were never necessary to begin with.

[Deus in Machina]

God Almighty works in mysterious ways. Perhaps, since God already knew what the king of Egypt would do (harden his heart) he took credit for it to give Moses more courage.

How would that give Moses more courage? That doesn't make sense.

Now you're going to say that God Almighty lied to Moses. Perhaps, a little small lie. He's the BOSS, of everything, He does as He pleases.

Yes, that's precisely the problem. You've essentially said that God's morality boils down to 'might makes right'. That doesn't help your argument.

Atrocities ? Being slaves under Egypt's iron fist was a cake walk I presume ? And it wasn't for a few years, it was for a buttload of years.

That's an ignoratio elenchi. The fact remains that, according to the Bible, God deliberately set up a situation so he would have a pretext to torture and kill innocent people.
Here's a clip from a movie I suggest you watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceSFxPbvkEg

Now for something completely different. One time, God Almighty became angry with the Israelites for disobeying him. Moses pleaded with God not to punish them because God Almighty had threatened to punish them with death. Now, after hearing Moses' pleas God Almighty changed his mind and didn't punish the Israelites. My question is, did Gid give in to Moses pleas or did God Almighty already have His mind made up and just wanted to see what Moses would do ? In other words, even though God Almighty can see what we are about to do, in my opinion, there are times when He chooses not to. It's His choice after all, to see the future or not to see the future. So, did He already decide not to punish the Israelites beforehand or did He give in to Moses' pleas for mercy ?

I don't see the relevence of the question. Are you pointing out that God occasionally refrains from committing acts of genocide? Good for him. I, for one, applaud John Wayne Gacy for the billions of people in the world he didn't murder.

[Northern Dem Canada]

So many freaking athiests

[Farnhamia]

So many freaking athiests

I find it's the the theists who freak in these threads, not the atheists.

[Ruridova]

I'm not sure if there's a god, however, there was one time I looked through the bible to see how many people God killed versus how many Satan killed.
God killed millions, Satan killed, like, 3.

I really don't see how a creator could be this cruel to his own creations, so, well, I don't know. My version of God wouldn't torture or kill his creations- but since we appear to be talking about the Christian God, yeah, God seems pretty evil.

[Northern Dem Canada]

So many freaking athiests

I find it's the the theists who freak in these threads, not the atheists.

Ugh, fucking context of words gets me again . I meant there is alot of athiests here.

[Aids-Land]

Who cares about fkin god? We could make a better use of our lives then worshiping someone we dont even know exists...

[Xsyne]

They aren't contingent on whether or not you suffer consequences. They are contingent on whether or the affected entity is real.

Your sims might think so, but no human court would convict you.
Responding to this.

Only not. The reason why no human court would convict is that you're not harming anything real.

[Xsyne]

No. If God has no moral obligation towards humanity then God can be omnibenevolent and evil can exist with no contradiction whatsoever. Also, answer 4 says God cannot help. That's quite a bit different than doesn't help.

I meant five not four, the lack of an obligation to someone doesn't excuse allowing them to suffer.

Yes it does. By definition. That's what a lack of a moral obligation is.

[Xsyne]

No. If God has no moral obligation towards humanity then God can be omnibenevolent and evil can exist with no contradiction whatsoever. Also, answer 4 says God cannot help. That's quite a bit different than doesn't help.

Why wouldn't God have a moral obligation to us? We are his children, are we not?

Same reason Shakespeare has no moral obligation to Hamlet. From Shakespeare's perspective, Hamlet isn't real. Who's to say we are real from God's perspective? In fact, given that the only kind of creation ex nihilo we know about inherently involves the creation not being real to the creator, it would seem most prudent to assume that a creator deity would not have any moral obligation towards us.

[Farnhamia]

I find it's the the theists who freak in these threads, not the atheists.

Ugh, fucking context of words gets me again . I meant there is alot of athiests here.

And did your observation have a point? Yes, there are quite a few. So?

[Aids-Land]

Was there a need to triple post? Its called fuckin edit... Jesus

[Deus in Machina]

So many freaking athiests

I know right ? It's like Youtube, only without the swearing and incessant insults. What I find most amusing about Youtube is how Christian comments are marked as "spam" and thumbed down without any mercy whatsoever. Take about censorship of ideas. I guess "might makes right" doesn't apply to atheists and their comments on the internets. Like a famous author once penned..."All pigs are equal, but some pigs are more equal than others."

It was 'all animals are equal', actually. It was the pigs who added the last bit.
George Orwell. Animal Farm.
And it really doesn't apply here.

[Farnhamia]

So many freaking athiests

I know right ? It's like Youtube, only without the swearing and incessant insults. What I find most amusing about Youtube is how Christian comments are marked as "spam" and thumbed down without any mercy whatsoever. Take about censorship of ideas. I guess "might makes right" doesn't apply to atheists and their comments on the internets. Like a famous author once penned..."All pigs are equal, but some pigs are more equal than others."

I think the quote is "All animals ..." but that's a quibble. I haven't looked, but I daresay that atheists are treated equally on Christian fora. Are the Christian comments on YouTube removed or just marked with disapproval by others? It makes a difference. The former would be censorship, the latter not.

[Farnhamia]

The pigs added the last bit ? Well then, if the shoe fits...

Do you feel you're being discriminated against here? You can complain in the Moderation forum.

And please use the "Quote" button.

[Deus in Machina]

The pigs added the last bit ? Well then, if the shoe fits...

Ah, good old flamebaiting. You're never too far away.

[Farnhamia]

The comments are marked with no regards to content or without mercy whatsoever by the hoards of atheists who seem to have nothing better to do with their time than to make Christians miserable on the internets, probably for the lulz. Then there are the unending hacker attacks on Christian Youtube channels. Then there are the ..."Your kind are dying out and good riddance..." comments that are a mainstay on Youtube. To be honest, if we do die out, the world's future will only be bleaker than it already is. Be careful what you wish for. Seriously.

Please use the "Quote" button.

Seriously? How so?

[Norstal]

And the firstborn babys and toddlers? And the first born of mere servants? And don't pretend we are talking about adults here.
It said specifically firstborn *SONS*.

If I was 66 years old and I was the firstborn I would still be the firstborn son of my father no?

So what? God killed people. God said killing people is evil. Therefore, God is evil.

[Norstal]

The comments are marked with no regards to content or without mercy whatsoever by the hoards of atheists who seem to have nothing better to do with their time than to make Christians miserable on the internets, probably for the lulz. Then there are the unending hacker attacks on Christian Youtube channels. Then there are the ..."Your kind are dying out and good riddance..." comments that are a mainstay on Youtube. To be honest, if we do die out, the world's future will only be bleaker than it already is. Be careful what you wish for. Seriously.

You guys make atheists miserable in real life. That is worse.

And no, if Christians died out, the world won't be bleaker. Because if you judged people based on their beliefs/non-beliefs, you already betrayed your religions. Remember that passage about not judging people?

Really, it's comments like these that supports the destruction of Christianity. That religion clearly have no impact on you and does not make you a better person.

[Deus in Machina]

The comments are marked with no regards to content or without mercy whatsoever by the hoards of atheists who seem to have nothing better to do with their time than to make Christians miserable on the internets, probably for the lulz. Then there are the unending hacker attacks on Christian Youtube channels. Then there are the ..."Your kind are dying out and good riddance..." comments that are a mainstay on Youtube. To be honest, if we do die out, the world's future will only be bleaker than it already is. Be careful what you wish for. Seriously.

You guys make atheists miserable in real life. That is worse.

And no, if Christians died out, the world won't be bleaker. Because if you judged people based on their beliefs/non-beliefs, you already betrayed your religions. Remember that passage about not judging people?

Really, it's comments like these that supports the destruction of Christianity. That religion clearly have no impact on you and does not make you a better person.

It's about selecting what passaged you want to pay attention to.
"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." 1 Corinthians 2:15
See? Asslvania has a the right to pass judgement on whoever he wants, but is exempt from judgement himself. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me.

[Johz]

I didn't particularly like the article. The point about children was quite interesting, suggesting that morality is a learned rationality, as opposed to a god-given instinct. However, excessive quotations from the KJV are a real turn-off for me when used in religious debates. Not because the KJV isn't an amazingly beautiful work of art, but because it has far too many implications of far-right Christians, and because in many places it is wrong. Then there was his discussion on Hell, where the Jews would have considered the entire afterlife to be much more like the Greek underworld than any Medieval concoction of fire and brimstone - indeed, the NKJV translates this more accurately as underworld. More often than not, hell is considered a place without God - indeed, a place that atheists, certainly of the author's kind, would prefer. His use of the analogy of hell being an oven that our father shuts us in if we don't love him enough was unwarrented, especially as he had not even provided evidence that hell will be like this, and was simply pandering to a popular misconception.

I honestly don't understand the God is evil argument. Well, I do, but I can't grasp why people choose to ignore the NT representation of God as someone who wants a relationship with us.

But then I'm biased.