Fathers and Sons

[King Zhaoxiang of Qin]

I disagree entirely. I have a good relationship with my dad...I'm not happy with all of his choices, but those only came to light within the last year, and are hardly enough to change my entire outlook on life. And yet, I have the drive to succeed. Granted, it would be difficult to outperform him...he's a doctor, I'm a teacher. And yet, I aspire to be a highly successful teacher. I'm pretty competative. I'm hard headed, fight, and will win. All with a relatively good dad.

Not to knock you or your father down, Sark, but by success, we're talking about people like President Obama, the top-dogs as it were.

I thought we were talking about strong father/son relationships.

[Sarkhaan]

I disagree entirely. I have a good relationship with my dad...I'm not happy with all of his choices, but those only came to light within the last year, and are hardly enough to change my entire outlook on life. And yet, I have the drive to succeed. Granted, it would be difficult to outperform him...he's a doctor, I'm a teacher. And yet, I aspire to be a highly successful teacher. I'm pretty competative. I'm hard headed, fight, and will win. All with a relatively good dad.

Not to knock you or your father down, Sark, but by success, we're talking about people like President Obama, the top-dogs as it were.

He's one of the top doctors in his field (that is, within Connecticut...)at the very least. Though, I was taking this more as a thread about father/son relationships rather than the top-dog producing relationships. I'm willing to bet that out of all the senators, congressmen, CEOs, CFOs,a nd other high powered individuals that at least a statistically significant number had good relationships with their dads.

[Barringtonia]

I just finished a book called Children of the Raj, idea being that children in India were sent back to the UK at around 5, especially sons, so they could receive a proper education. Due to travel issues, that essentially meant they might not see their parents for years, or due to disease.. ever. I was actually sent back from Africa at the age of 8, constantly sent to, say, 'France' for holidays to improve myself and rarely at home. I was discussing with my eldest brother, who's 8 years older than me, that I've technically only known him for about a year of my life all taken together, since he was off to school when I was born. I've learned more about my father after his death than I ever knew when he was alive.

The utter range of results, from ordinary people to Rudyard Kipling makes me believe that 'success' is more due to particular circumstance - right time, right place - rather than parental factors.

The example is in the Outliers, take Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs was actually adopted but was their success more down to having enormous access to programming at young age when they'd be in their 20's in the 70's or their parents?

I mean, as Smunkee says, consistent, supportive parenting is the responsibility, what the child turns out to be is a product of so many factors out of your control that, although you'll always be concerned, you'll be the father you are.

I can't imagine, from the limited interaction on an anonymous forum I've had, that you'll be anything but a great father.

[NERVUN]

I disagree entirely. I have a good relationship with my dad...I'm not happy with all of his choices, but those only came to light within the last year, and are hardly enough to change my entire outlook on life. And yet, I have the drive to succeed. Granted, it would be difficult to outperform him...he's a doctor, I'm a teacher. And yet, I aspire to be a highly successful teacher. I'm pretty competative. I'm hard headed, fight, and will win. All with a relatively good dad.

Not to knock you or your father down, Sark, but by success, we're talking about people like President Obama, the top-dogs as it were.

He's one of the top doctors in his field at the very least.

Ah, understood then.

Though, I was taking this more as a thread about father/son relationships rather than the top-dog producing relationships.

Well, it was supposed to be about the top-dog relationships, but everyone seems to have moved off to their own relationships, not that I mind too much. As I said, I lost my father when I was three and my mother didn't remarry until I was 16 so father/son interactions are a bit of a mystery to me so hearing how others have done is interesting.

I'm willing to bet that out of all the senators, congressmen, CEOs, CFOs,a nd other high powered individuals that at least a statistically significant number had good relationships with their dads.

See, that's what I was questioning given the statement in the article and the fact that I couldn't actually think of any.

[Sarkhaan]

See, that's what I was questioning given the statement in the article and the fact that I couldn't actually think of any.

To be honest, I struggle to think of any either. But then, I don't know the names of tons of top dogs, and even less about their relationships with their fathers. I would say the Kennedy's perhaps?

[NERVUN]

See, that's what I was questioning given the statement in the article and the fact that I couldn't actually think of any.

To be honest, I struggle to think of any either. But then, I don't know the names of tons of top dogs, and even less about their relationships with their fathers. I would say the Kennedy's perhaps?

I dunno... Joe Kennedy Sr. was not a nice man according to a number of people.

[Sarkhaan]

See, that's what I was questioning given the statement in the article and the fact that I couldn't actually think of any.

To be honest, I struggle to think of any either. But then, I don't know the names of tons of top dogs, and even less about their relationships with their fathers. I would say the Kennedy's perhaps?

I dunno... Joe Kennedy Sr. was not a nice man according to a number of people.

Maybe Barney Frank's dad? Frank Wells? Roy E. Disney?

As you can tell, I'm running out of good names to throw out there...

[NERVUN]

To be honest, I struggle to think of any either. But then, I don't know the names of tons of top dogs, and even less about their relationships with their fathers. I would say the Kennedy's perhaps?

I dunno... Joe Kennedy Sr. was not a nice man according to a number of people.

Maybe Barney Frank's dad? Frank Wells? Roy E. Disney?

As you can tell, I'm running out of good names to throw out there...

Dunno, not enough info about them on Wiki.

[Anti-Social Darwinism]

I disagree entirely. I have a good relationship with my dad...I'm not happy with all of his choices, but those only came to light within the last year, and are hardly enough to change my entire outlook on life. And yet, I have the drive to succeed. Granted, it would be difficult to outperform him...he's a doctor, I'm a teacher. And yet, I aspire to be a highly successful teacher. I'm pretty competative. I'm hard headed, fight, and will win. All with a relatively good dad.

Not to knock you or your father down, Sark, but by success, we're talking about people like President Obama, the top-dogs as it were.

I think it's foolish to define success in terms of income and position on the food chain. If you raise a child who likes him/herself, finds and does work he/she is passionate about and enjoys his/her life all without feeling the need to one up other people I would count you as a successful parent and your child as a successful person.

[Sarkhaan]

I do wonder...many successful men are sons of successful men. Many of the men who establish the great families were workaholics. Perhaps it is a case of correlation not meaning causation?

[Barringtonia]

I do wonder...many successful men are sons of successful men. Many of the men who establish the great families were workaholics. Perhaps it is a case of correlation not meaning causation?

I'm not sure it's the whole story, if you look at successful business dynasties you often see a family involved in a particular area of business that, for some reason, takes off as a whole and they're well-placed to take advantage of that.

It's easier to work hard when you see growth, when the opportunity is clear to you and you have a wealth of resources - in terms of experience and contacts - to build on that.

Take Donald Trump again, from a building and contracting family, started in the 70's when inner city NY prices were depressed and speculated from the traditional Trump base in Queens into Manhattan at the right time. He'd essentially stuck around his father throughout his early life learning, and excuse me, the 'art of the deal'.

That is to say that success cannot be a product overall of the father-son relationship and more to do with circumstance.

Having said that, take a look at sporting figures, that might be different. Andre Agassi's father put a tennis ball on a string over his cot, Tiger Wood's father built a short course, Monica Seles' father coached her throughout her life but, again, that might not be a case of the relationship but the resources provided,

[NERVUN]

I disagree entirely. I have a good relationship with my dad...I'm not happy with all of his choices, but those only came to light within the last year, and are hardly enough to change my entire outlook on life. And yet, I have the drive to succeed. Granted, it would be difficult to outperform him...he's a doctor, I'm a teacher. And yet, I aspire to be a highly successful teacher. I'm pretty competative. I'm hard headed, fight, and will win. All with a relatively good dad.

Not to knock you or your father down, Sark, but by success, we're talking about people like President Obama, the top-dogs as it were.

I think it's foolish to define success in terms of income and position on the food chain. If you raise a child who likes him/herself, finds and does work he/she is passionate about and enjoys his/her life all without feeling the need to one up other people I would count you as a successful parent and your child as a successful person.

As would I. I just found the idea that the male Alpha Wolves seem to have had a rough relationship with their own fathers an interesting idea, just not one that I particularly want to try out on my own son to see if I can get a president out of him.

[Bluth Corporation]

Here I was expecting some Turgenev discussion...

[Ryadn]

I'm still trying to come to grips with the idea that there are people who don't have strained relationships with their fathers.

Seriously, though---it's the kind of vague theory that you can make 'fit' any example, because we have, by and large, very complicated relationships with our parents, who are, by and large, not perfect human beings.

[Bottle]

In my experience, you really only hear about a famous person's family relationships if those relationships are somehow shocking. For instance, I know way more than I'd ever want to know about Michael Jackson's fucked up family, but I know absolutely nothing about, say, Brad Pitt's.

Given how famous Brad Pitt is, I'm sure the media would have made a tremendous fucking stink about it if there were anything remotely interesting about his relationship with his father. Particularly since Pitt is an "out" feminist man who has married a feminist woman who kept her own name, and has both adopted and biological children with hyphenated last names. All of those things are supposedly behaviors of a "whipped" man, so I'm sure that if it could be shown that Pitt's father was too distant or his mother didn't hug him enough or something there would be tons of press about it. (And by "press" I mean tabloids, of course.)

But there's really no story in reporting that Brad Pitt is on good terms with his family.

[Greed and Death]

wow an excuse to be a more distant weekend dad.

[Tiesabre]

I'm not sure how it works with my father. People have told us we're carbon copies of one another in most aspect of life except when it comes to relationships, we was always in one when he was my age, I'm not.

Sure me and my father were distant at a point, but then I came to live with him when I was 13, I'm 22 now, we've become closer but that's like saying I was earth and he was Pluto now I'm Mars and he's Neptune. A huge part is he doesn't know how to talk to me and I don't know how to talk to him. Do even though he live under the same roof, that distance is still there.

And I'll admit, I run the gambit, my father is successful in his work and get paid quite well, however he has a back-breaking job and no college degree. I feel like that once I get my AS in 2010 I'll have surpassed him like I'm smarter than him or something and that the jobs I chose will me based on my mental abilities, not physical ones like his is. I don't know, its hard to explain

But as for successful people of today? It's hard to say, there's plenty of fathers who were distant or simply not there and their kids strive for excellence and such, whereas there are the other set to dads who were in their kids asses 24/7 and forced/instilled success into their kids and made them what they are today.

Personally, I just say to raise your kid the best way you can and don't worry about how other fathers do it.

[Ostronopolis]

well....my immediate thought was George W. Bush...but, Im not sure he's someone you want to emulate,

I would, think about how cool it would be to act like an idiot, and not have anyone care because they're used to it!