Feminists, Please Explain to me this.

[Dempublicents1]

In that case, certainly. But all sexism against men is not *wholly* rooted in sexism against women. It may not be as widespread, but it is still there.

I think one problem people are running into here is the attitude that sexism is either "sexism against men" or "sexism against women." Sexism is an attitude that shoehorns people into arbitrary roles based solely on their sex. By definition, this means that sexism will affect everyone - because everyone will be expected to fulfill an arbitrary role that may or may not suit them. Thus, it is actually a bit nonsensical to discuss "sexism against men" as a separate topic from "sexism against women."

[Conserative Morality]

I think one problem people are running into here is the attitude that sexism is either "sexism against men" or "sexism against women." Sexism is an attitude that shoehorns people into arbitrary roles based solely on their sex. By definition, this means that sexism will affect everyone - because everyone will be expected to fulfill an arbitrary role that may or may not suit them. Thus, it is actually a bit nonsensical to discuss "sexism against men" as a separate topic from "sexism against women."

The problem is (And again, it stems from sexism), that a number of people associate sexism with women only, which makes the clarification unpleasant and somewhat inaccurate but necessary.

[Siorafrica]

Women will say anything to play the victim. Contradictions be damned.

That is what this whole "objectification" shtick is about, making womyn women the victims to validate either A) Personal beauty insecurity. And/Or B) Man-hate.

[Dakini]

Dude, you should chill a little.

The stereotype is that men who wear feminine clothing are emasculate. Femininity is not associated with weakness, inferiority, or shame. Just ask any woman who wears a skirt and powders her nose. Men who try to be feminine are considered weak because they don't conform to their gender stereotype. It's a sexism perpetrated by men and women alike, against men, and has nothing to do with sexism against women.

First, if you have a problem with it, do something about it. Go find a cute skirt and flaunt what you've got.
Second, have you stopped to ask why it is that men who wear feminine clothing are emasculated? Have you stopped to consider that perhaps "being like a woman in some fashion" = "emasculated" and that this might, I dunno, mean something?
Have you also considered that women who don't dress femininely are often maligned as well (see thread from the other day stating that Hilary Clinton is a transvestite)? Conversely, women who do dress femininely are often not taken seriously.

[Mosasauria]

In both cases it's about societal pressure for women to present themselves in a rather extreme way whereas men get given a (comparatively) free hand.

I wish.

[Dakini]

In both cases it's about societal pressure for women to present themselves in a rather extreme way whereas men get given a (comparatively) free hand.

I wish.

Really? Why wasn't anyone ragging on male politicians about their appearance in the run up to the 2008 US election? Why was an entire news day spent discussing Hilary Clinton's cleavage? (for example)

[Katganistan]

Women will say anything to play the victim. Contradictions be damned.

That is what this whole "objectification" shtick is about, making womyn women the victims to validate either A) Personal beauty insecurity. And/Or B) Man-hate.

Did you have something to add?

[Mostrov]

What about the number of women who work in industries that determine the types of clothing that are widely circulated, I highly doubt that it is men who determines women's fashion nowadays. That is not to deny the effect of men, but surely women do play a part too?

[Ryadn]

And you were able to measure this?

Because frankly, that just sounds like a big 'ol opinion.




At least you're willing to say as much.

Many of the feminists I have the displeasure of interacting with seem adamant on their refusal to believe sexism against men even exists. Or that, if it exists, is a "product of sexism against women" and therefor...not unwarranted, I suppose is the implication?

Nope. It's true that most sexism against men is a product of sexism against women (the example you gave, of men wearing women's clothing is because womanly things are associated with being weak and inferior and thus shameful for the superior man to do, etc.) but that doesn't make it warranted. Rather, the implication is that rather than treat this particular symptom, if you attack the root problem (sexism against women) you end up solving that problem as well in the process.

What Geniasis said. Even though my support of him totally breaks my feminist vow to hate all men ever, because that is what feminism is all about.

[Ryadn]

Nope. It's true that most sexism against men is a product of sexism against women (the example you gave, of men wearing women's clothing is because womanly things are associated with being weak and inferior and thus shameful for the superior man to do, etc.) but that doesn't make it warranted. Rather, the implication is that rather than treat this particular symptom, if you attack the root problem (sexism against women) you end up solving that problem as well in the process.

Wrong. Double Wrong.

The stereotype is that men who wear feminine clothing are emasculate. Femininity is not associated with weakness, inferiority, or shame. Just ask any woman who wears a skirt and powders her nose. Men who try to be feminine are considered weak because they don't conform to their gender stereotype. It's a sexism perpetrated by men and women alike, against men, and has nothing to do with sexism against women.

And, attacking sexism against women does nothing to fight sexism against men. In fact, neglecting men's rights in its entirety only leads further toward more sexism perpetrated against men. As, evidence by the American court system, which has for decades, been bolstering women's, particularly wives rights, by Congressional legislation. Which has dually, due to neglect on the part of politicians and judges, created an atmosphere in which men are considered, by default, aggressors, abusers, and criminals, compared to women. It has cultivated a justice system which disproportionately punishes men for the same crimes a woman would commit, and often assume that marriage problems are a man's fault.

And while it was all and right to focus on solving the sexism against women in domestic relationships that was enforced through courts. A distinct LACK of attention on men's rights created a court of sexism against men.

Boatloads of wrong! I didn't want to go through the "triple wrong" "quadruple wrong!" back-and-forth with you.

Femininity is absolutely equated with weakness, inferiority and shame. Just ask any woman who's been groped just because she's wearing a skirt, and therefor must be 'open for business'. Just ask any man who's been called a pussy or a bitch. Why does society react so violently against gay men, even when they 'conform to their gender stereotypes'? Because they like other men. Because there's a possibly that they're fucked like women, which means that they're the ones without power.

I wonder which particular 'wives rights' you're going on about. The not-so-old laws that acknowledge that women are not property of their husbands, that it is possible for a husband to rape his wife, even though he 'paid for it'? The ones that don't let men beat their wives anymore? Maybe the ones that really piss men off--the part where a woman who makes less than a man is entitled to alimony for a certain length of time. Of course, a man who makes less is entitled to the same alimony, but that's hardly the point, is it?

If you want to argue parental custody, or lack of consequences for female abusers, I guarantee you that the majority of feminists on this and any other site will gladly step up beside you and protest just as loudly. If you just want to shout, well... it's a free country.

[Ryadn]

Women show a lot more skin than men do in popular media, indicating that they're a lot more objectified sexually. The whole skirt thing was done to mask the shape of women's legs, which pants won't do. In other words, there's more to a woman's wardrobe than a skirt and a bikini, such as what men normally where.

Not to mention that most male skin is not considered 'sexual'. When I drove up to my house yesterday, two middle-aged men were shirtless and mowing their lawns. I doubt they were viewed as the salacious hussies that women would be in the same attire.

[Ryadn]

What about the number of women who work in industries that determine the types of clothing that are widely circulated, I highly doubt that it is men who determines women's fashion nowadays. That is not to deny the effect of men, but surely women do play a part too?

The number of prominent male designers vastly outweighs the number of prominent female designers.

[Grainne Ni Malley]

Not to mention that most male skin is not considered 'sexual'. When I drove up to my house yesterday, two middle-aged men were shirtless and mowing their lawns. I doubt they were viewed as the salacious hussies that women would be in the same attire.

Breasts be damned, right? Though, I think there would be a lot of men happy to see a shirtless woman mowing the lawn.


It's a common, though not constant, observation of mine that women will be regarded as hussies no matter what they wear, or do, by a lot of men. I am guessing it's wishful thinking, but I could be wrong. I've put on normal clothes: pants, a t-shirt, socks/shoes, but the second I add on make-up before heading out, whoever I happen to be dating at the time will typically chime in, "Who are you dressing up for?" What? I just felt like being colorful today. Or my most recent ex for example. He looks on Craigslist, follows through on a date and that's okay, but, if he finds me just looking, he insists that I'm determined to "whore it up". I love the double standards. It's fun. I just call him a whore back. I never said I was mature.

AND women can be just as guilty of passing sexist-type judgments on other women. If a woman is seen wearing skimpy clothes, oh look at that slut. Too many clothes, what a prude! And personally, I love a man in a skirt, but I can't speak for everyone on that particular issue.

[Rumbria]

Read some Joyce Arthur. Specifically this article.

I found it utterly fascinating. If you truly believe that women utilising their own free will to dress as provocatively as possible is sexist, or objectification, read that article. If your do not at all understand how anyone could come to that conclusion, read that article. It articulates all the main points of each argument and concludes extremely well.

[Meryuma]

Women will say anything to play the victim. Contradictions be damned.

That is what this whole "objectification" shtick is about, making womyn women the victims to validate either A) Personal beauty insecurity. And/Or B) Man-hate.

You're only showing why we need feminism as a movement.

[Rumbria]

Just a little 'choice' quote:

A culture that promotes an extreme sexualization of women, while at the same time condemning "sluts and whores,” is a culture still under the sway of that age-old patriarchal fear and fascination with women—also known as the Madonna/Whore syndrome. Women can be sexy, or they can be mothers, but there's no inbetween. This makes men feel conflicted about women, and a lot of women tend to absorb those messages too, unfortunately.

and

Large numbers of young women do not dress like vamps, and those that do, don’t necessarily do it all the time—only when they want to exercise their sexual power. Further, if we actually asked provocatively-dressed young women if they see themselves as sexually exploited objects suffering from low self-esteem, most would probably protest “Absolutely not!” So why can’t we just take their word for it, instead of assuming they’re hapless victims who don’t know their own minds?

Italics are my own

[Geniasis]

Nope. It's true that most sexism against men is a product of sexism against women (the example you gave, of men wearing women's clothing is because womanly things are associated with being weak and inferior and thus shameful for the superior man to do, etc.) but that doesn't make it warranted. Rather, the implication is that rather than treat this particular symptom, if you attack the root problem (sexism against women) you end up solving that problem as well in the process.

What Geniasis said. Even though my support of him totally breaks my feminist vow to hate all men ever, because that is what feminism is all about.

It's OK, I hate my penis too.

Goddamn fucker couldn't even be bothered to be 18 inches long.

[Vecherd]

Feminism is bollocks, they want to restrain all peoples freedom. "Criminalize strip clubs, Criminalize prostitution(check) Criminalize selling alcohol in stores after three o`clock, Criminalize being nude in public." That is the motto of the Norwegian Feminist.

[Mature Related]

Implying humans deserve rights.

[Aldri]

Personally, I have no issue with women wearing whatever they goddamn well please. I'll bitch and moan if it doesn't fit them (I don't need to see anyone try to cram themselves into something four sizes too small, I know clothes shopping is hard and larger numbers can feel depressing, but just go with it) or be really confused when I see girls walking down the street wearing tiny dresses in the middle of January (I live in Canada, it gets cold) without a coat because they want to save on coat check (granted, men will be walking around in t-shirts and jeans so they're often not doing that much better).

In advertising, there are more sexist things than just women's attire (like, for instance, the whole bit where women are usually still shown cleaning every goddamn thing [unless it's "so easy a man can do it", which is also sexist and born of the same thing as the other commercials]). Although in some cases women are totally just being objectified and appear like sex objects. Usually because she is a model or a backup dancer or whatever requires her to wear nothing and shake her ass.

Meanwhile, if a man should EVER try clothing that is remotely considered feminine, such as a skirt, they will be labeled by women and men alike as less then a "True" man, whatever the fuck that is. Even being remotely emasculate will get you called a "Sissy"

Dude, if my bf wore a skirt, that would be so goddamn hot.

Also, I'm generally cool with men wearing "girly" things. I think that would be awesome in general.

I love the way you think! I was going to point out the cleaning product adverts. The only males I have seen in such adverts are either stripped of their "masculinity" as it were (for example, the purposefully "effeminate" Mr Muscle) as an ironic joke (look girls, he's called Mr Muscle even though he has none! haha!), or, they are seen to do the cleaning up to get favours from the females of their household, and thus do it slapdash and hurriedly (like the one where the man and his son clean up quickly and hurriedly and are then allowed to watch football on the TV by the wife/mother). Not that there is anything wrong with men being effeminate, and not having muscles/or having muscles, I'm not trying to say that, and I don't think there are many people out there, male or female, that genuinely enjoy cleaning and tidying, but it's telling that when a male is involved in a cleaning product advert, they are ironically transformed into your cliche stereotypical "camp" and/or "nerdy" guy, thus implying that cleaning is a "feminine" job that only women should do; or, they use cleaning as a way to get favour from the female who, it is implied, is the one who always does the cleaning, so much so that they let them watch tv for aggggges because of how generous they were in hurriedly cleaning something up for once!

So in summary, I dislike cleaning product adverts.

As for clothing being feminine or masculine, and about males wearing "feminine" clothes, yeah, I haven't a single problem with that either; same with girls wearing "masculine" clothes. Whatever makes you feel happy and comfortable, I would never judge a man in a skirt/dress, just as I wouldn't judge a woman for wearing a man's pair of jeans, or a man's shirt, whatever, it really doesn't matter to me. As long as someone doesn't feel they should or shouldn't wear something they don't want to, or conversely want to, just because they're female or male.

My partner often buys and wears women's tops, he looks lovely in them, as they suit his rather slender frame. I love it, personally.

[Ashmoria]

Note: I am not trolling, I am just asking a question

I have read that in the victorian era, women were required to have their skirts cover more of their bodies as they got older to prevent sexual immorality. but the feminists community calls this sexist because it impacts the free wills of women. in modern day culture, women are depicted in the media as showing more and more skin, as in the case of the MTV spring breaks. Feminists call this sexist because it over sexualizes women, the exact opposite of the victorian case. wouldn't stopping this be limiting women's free will to show skin, what you were campaigning for in the victorian age? I asked a feminist neighbor of mine this, and she couldn't explain. so, women not having free will to do what they want is sexist, but women having free will to do what they want is also sexist. ??? Please explain this to me, any feminists on the forums, because it seems really hypocritical to me.

sexism is complicated.

[Ashmoria]

^ this. It's rejection of the idea that females are simply objects of attraction to males, which pervades society so much. We want to be able to dress however we like without being forced a certain way by society. And the same should go with males too, as notwithstanding there is a compulsion for males to be a certain way for society too, it's just less so because society is generally more patriarchal than matriarchal.

Bullshit.

Women are totally free to dress however they like. Wear long skirts, short pants, danty tank tops, or leather jackets. Women are often "encouraged" to express themselves however they please, in a feminine OR masculine manner and that they have no obligation to dress however men want them too.

Meanwhile, if a man should EVER try clothing that is remotely considered feminine, such as a skirt, they will be labeled by women and men alike as less then a "True" man, whatever the fuck that is. Even being remotely emasculate will get you called a "Sissy"

i dont know why you called bullshit.

you have supported his argument that men are compelled to dress/act a certain way too. part of the patriarchy is strong sex role stereotypes and severe punishments for men "acting like women".

that is sexism too.

[Pope Joan]

We should just be like Sports Illustrated (swimsuit edition), and cover ourselves in nothing but paint.

Clothing is no longer necessary for protection from the elements after all; it is mere adornment.

[Tahar Joblis]

In both cases it's about societal pressure for women to present themselves in a rather extreme way whereas men get given a (comparatively) free hand.

I wish.

Me too. Men's fashion options are much narrower, especially as you move up the "respectable" ladder. We don't have half the color selection, and if you're not wearing pants, people stare. Also, if you wear your hair long, you get actively discriminated against. "Acceptable" male fashion fits in a very narrow envelope by the time you're talking, say, "business casual." Hair must be about 1-4", clothing must fall in a spectrum that goes from gray to brown to black to navy blue, and must include (1) pair of long khaki or dress pants, etc etc etc. "Expressing yourself" within the strictures of male fashion means wearing a clever tie instead of a boring one.

On the plus side, it's cheaper, but a woman could wear everything in my wardrobe (provided it was adjusted to her size and build - I have longer legs and a flatter chest than the vast majority of women) without getting funny looks (so long as she also wore a bra - that would be the one concession to Victorian morality necessary). I actually do get funny looks for wearing a kilt (in as manly as possible of style and drab manly color), and sometimes also flak for wearing lots of green, which, although in many cases dark and somber, is too colorful for the male wardrobe. My preference for shorts that fall above the knee has often been considered scandalous. Mid-thigh shorts are considered "un-masculine" unless you are engaged in a sporting event that requires that particular form of garb, as is anything skin-tight - heck, even form-hugging, let alone skin-tight - unless it's a "muscle" shirt and you're someone who works out in the gym constantly (actually, even then you may get aspersions cast on your masculinity).

Women are free to take a wider variety of hairstyles, to wear pants, skirts, or dresses; sleeveless attire is actually more acceptable on women. Clothing can be worn in a range from baggy to tight. The lower body covering can be any length from showing the bottom several inches of ass-cheek to past the ankles without being considered "un-feminine."

[Tahar Joblis]

Not to mention that most male skin is not considered 'sexual'. When I drove up to my house yesterday, two middle-aged men were shirtless and mowing their lawns. I doubt they were viewed as the salacious hussies that women would be in the same attire.

Breasts be damned, right? Though, I think there would be a lot of men happy to see a shirtless woman mowing the lawn.


It's a common, though not constant, observation of mine that women will be regarded as hussies no matter what they wear, or do, by a lot of men. I am guessing it's wishful thinking, but I could be wrong. I've put on normal clothes: pants, a t-shirt, socks/shoes, but the second I add on make-up before heading out, whoever I happen to be dating at the time will typically chime in, "Who are you dressing up for?" What? I just felt like being colorful today. Or my most recent ex for example. He looks on Craigslist, follows through on a date and that's okay, but, if he finds me just looking, he insists that I'm determined to "whore it up". I love the double standards. It's fun. I just call him a whore back. I never said I was mature.

AND women can be just as guilty of passing sexist-type judgments on other women. If a woman is seen wearing skimpy clothes, oh look at that slut. Too many clothes, what a prude! And personally, I love a man in a skirt, but I can't speak for everyone on that particular issue.

IME, it's women that do the majority of slut-shaming, just like it's men who do the most of enforcing that other men don't look or act feminine.