Bachmann: Ex-gay clinic "cured" gays

[Furious Grandmothers]

Well, other traditions (many older ones too) practice these though. Lemme guess: you're gonna say that your tradition is right and others are wrong??

Don't know if it is right but it is mine and society is based off of mine so it is ours.

Society refers to which society? What tradition is yours? How is said society based off your tradition alone?

[Fallos Miriai]

What the hell? Even if that is true, why should they not get a trial? A little procedural due process never hurt anyone.

He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17
The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it. -- Proverbs 30:17

Oh, and then there was the story of the genocide of the firstborn sons of Egypt, who were innocent of the crimes of their fathers.

The Bible's just pretty screwed up in general if you take it literally.

[Glorious Freedonia]

I disagree with your last paragraph there. But I do agree that obedience to God is important. Who is man to disobey God? Sure we can love him or hate him or both at the same time but we should be obedient. Is that lesson not conveyed to us by our forefathers in scriptural lessons? We are obedient because we are humble. If we oppose God we set ourselves up above God and are essentially idolatrous.
You are right that human suffering can be the result of obedience. But is that not true of all obedience to higher callings? Lets look at the US wartime experience with drafts. Many soldiers went off to war under conscription and suffered. Does that mean that the defeat of the evil Axis was not worth it? Of course it does not.
The avoidance of suffering does matter and in that you are wrong. It is not the most important factor in an ethical question but it is an important one.

False dilemma. If we opposed someone, we are not necessarily setting ourselves up above that someone. Tell that to every teen who has rebelled against his/her parents.

And you've failed to reply to the 4 or so people asking you what does evil, temptation and badness have to do with homosexuality.

It is not a false dilemna. If you rebel against your parents you are saying that you know better than they. It is ridiculous to say that to an omniscient God.

[Soufrika]

Children were to be killed for back talk. I'd consider that the death of innocents.

What the hell? Even if that is true, why should they not get a trial? A little procedural due process never hurt anyone.

Because God says so, remember? The Bible is His Word—every comma, period and semicolon.

[Glorious Freedonia]

No. It should not be because even if there is nothing divine about it it still wins because it is tradition and tradition should be very important in our lives and because the stories contain wisdom lessons that are the gifts of our forefather to us and from us to our children when we teach them.

Older tradition than that has no problem with homosexuality.

Each people can certainly pass on its own lessons to its posterity.

[Glorious Freedonia]

No. It should not be because even if there is nothing divine about it it still wins because it is tradition and tradition should be very important in our lives and because the stories contain wisdom lessons that are the gifts of our forefather to us and from us to our children when we teach them.

And thus slavery and rape are ok amirite?

If God says to kill your own son it is good that you do it. Source: Abraham and Isaac.
What is ordinarily evil is good if commanded by God.

[Ceannairceach]

Older tradition than that has no problem with homosexuality.

Each people can certainly pass on its own lessons to its posterity.

Mmkay. And I say all Jews are mentally and spiritually ill and must be cured, and forced into a better life. And this must happen, of course, as my tradition commands it, and all must adhere to my tradition, as is tradition.

[Ceannairceach]

And thus slavery and rape are ok amirite?

If God says to kill your own son it is good that you do it. Source: Abraham and Isaac.
What is ordinarily evil is good if commanded by God.

False, because God does not exist, and therefore all evil acts claimed to be good because god said so are still evil.

[Fallos Miriai]

Each people can certainly pass on its own lessons to its posterity.

Mmkay. And I say all Jews are mentally and spiritually ill and must be cured, and forced into a better life. And this must happen, of course, as my tradition commands it, and all must adhere to my tradition, as is tradition.

Okay. It's been attempted before.

[Ceannairceach]

Mmkay. And I say all Jews are mentally and spiritually ill and must be cured, and forced into a better life. And this must happen, of course, as my tradition commands it, and all must adhere to my tradition, as is tradition.

Okay. It's been attempted before.

A la Bachmann-style "clinics", not camps, mind you. Those are evil because god didn't say so. *nod* But, of course, this was an attempt to show how idiotic that stance of his is.

[Soviet Haaregrad]

If God says to kill your own son it is good that you do it. Source: Abraham and Isaac.
What is ordinarily evil is good if commanded by God.

False, because God does not exist, and therefore all evil acts claimed to be good because god said so are still evil.

So you mean Osama wasn't being good when he had his boys fly those planes into the WTC?

[Fallos Miriai]

False, because God does not exist, and therefore all evil acts claimed to be good because god said so are still evil.

So you mean Osama wasn't being good when he had his boys fly those planes into the WTC?

What? Really? MY WHOLE LIFE IS A LIE!!

[Glorious Freedonia]

What the hell? Even if that is true, why should they not get a trial? A little procedural due process never hurt anyone.

He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17
The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it. -- Proverbs 30:17

Oh, and then there was the story of the genocide of the firstborn sons of Egypt, who were innocent of the crimes of their fathers.

Cursing your parents is worse than talking back. The killing of the firstborn of Egypt was not genocide and it was done by God and killing people is totally in his bailiwick.

[Ceannairceach]

He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17
The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it. -- Proverbs 30:17

Oh, and then there was the story of the genocide of the firstborn sons of Egypt, who were innocent of the crimes of their fathers.

Cursing your parents is worse than talking back. The killing of the firstborn of Egypt was not genocide and it was done by God and killing people is totally in his bailiwick.

Lying? How Un-Judaic of you. Denying the truth isn't that far off, mind, but lying? Horrid.

[Soufrika]

If God says to kill your own son it is good that you do it. Source: Abraham and Isaac.
What is ordinarily evil is good if commanded by God.

So if God says you must execute people without trial, then you must. If you don't, you are sinning, and God does not allow sin to go unpunished.

[Furious Grandmothers]

False dilemma. If we opposed someone, we are not necessarily setting ourselves up above that someone. Tell that to every teen who has rebelled against his/her parents.

And you've failed to reply to the 4 or so people asking you what does evil, temptation and badness have to do with homosexuality.

It is not a false dilemna. If you rebel against your parents you are saying that you know better than they. It is ridiculous to say that to an omniscient God.

Nope, it IS a false dilemma. You do NOT have to say that you know better than they. God may know the results of all my choices, but I can say I don't care, I just wanna go with my whims. That does not entail me knowing better than God.

Once more, you've failed to reply to the 4 or so people asking you what does evil, temptation and badness have to do with homosexuality.

[Furious Grandmothers]

If God says to kill your own son it is good that you do it. Source: Abraham and Isaac.
What is ordinarily evil is good if commanded by God.

So if God says you must execute people without trial, then you must. If you don't, you are sinning, and God does not allow sin.

I guess so. Glorious Freedonia, God just told me that you are wrong, and told me to tell you to stop sinning.

[Reiverz]

Yes, I did. It didn't say a thing about anything resembling an intervention or a kidnapping.

Read this passage, then. Note the underlined.

Andrew Ramirez was sent to Bachmann & Associates after he told his parents he was gay. A high school senior at the time, he told The Nation that an employee of Bachmann’s told him that his only choice was to renounce homosexuality.

“He basically said being gay was not an acceptable lifestyle in God’s eyes,” Ramirez recalled in the interview.

Bachmann & Associates also referred Ramirez to a church for “ex-gays” and offered to connect him with an “ex-lesbian” mentor, he said.

Parents don't send their children to be "treated", hm?

Uh, parents have that right. I said that parents had that right. Can't YOU read?

[Reiverz]

I could imagine parents having their children treated, 'cuz kids are minors under their care.
Any "forcing" of adults sounds like an urban myth. Know anyone?

http://www.reddit.com/r/troubledteens/comments/hk0xy/a_gay_teen_describes_her_experience_at_a_utah/
Forcing of teenagers.

And I have met several gay men who were pressured into attending these camps by their families.

Why do you ignore the part about children-minors? Parents have that right. Teen agers = minors, in most cases, and are likely easily confused about sexuality.

[Neo Art]

I am virtually POSITIVE that someone has pulled the "if god tells you to kill your son, then you should" bit before. I'm fairly certain it was MTAE, who was twice the troll than.....whoever this person is.

Seriously, trolls these days, abso-fucking-lutely no originality whatsoever.

[Soviet Haaregrad]

http://www.reddit.com/r/troubledteens/comments/hk0xy/a_gay_teen_describes_her_experience_at_a_utah/
Forcing of teenagers.

And I have met several gay men who were pressured into attending these camps by their families.

Why do you ignore the part about children-minors? Parents have that right. Teen agers = minors, in most cases, and are likely easily confused about sexuality.

I suppose parents do have the right to abuse their kids...

[Furious Grandmothers]

I am virtually POSITIVE that someone has pulled the "if god tells you to kill your son, then you should" bit before. I'm fairly certain it was MTAE, who was twice the troll than.....whoever this person is.

Seriously, trolls these days, abso-fucking-lutely no originality whatsoever.

I'm just waiting for the countertroll to come so that I can countercountertroll the countertroll.

No. The point is, since my opponent believes in God, I am using the concept of God to show to him/her the absurdity of his/her arguments.

[Furious Grandmothers]

http://www.reddit.com/r/troubledteens/comments/hk0xy/a_gay_teen_describes_her_experience_at_a_utah/
Forcing of teenagers.

And I have met several gay men who were pressured into attending these camps by their families.

Why do you ignore the part about children-minors? Parents have that right. Teen agers = minors, in most cases, and are likely easily confused about sexuality.

What do you mean by confused about sexuality? Isn't sexuality something that you can freely experiment with?

[Neo Art]

I am virtually POSITIVE that someone has pulled the "if god tells you to kill your son, then you should" bit before. I'm fairly certain it was MTAE, who was twice the troll than.....whoever this person is.

Seriously, trolls these days, abso-fucking-lutely no originality whatsoever.

I'm just waiting for the countertroll to come so that I can countercountertroll the countertroll.

No. The point is, since my opponent believes in God, I am using the concept of God to show to him/her the absurdity of his/her arguments.

He doesn't "believe" in anything, at least anything that's seriously being discussed. He tried to, legitimately, argue that it's ok to kill your kids if you think god is telling you to.

This isn't an "argument" and you're not going to "win" anything by engaging in it. GF is a troll, nothing more, nothing less. And a poor one at that.

[Fallos Miriai]

Why do you ignore the part about children-minors? Parents have that right. Teen agers = minors, in most cases, and are likely easily confused about sexuality.

I suppose parents do have the right to abuse their kids...

Ah, good old childhood. I remember going to a christian counselor to be "fixed" because of my homosexuality.