The State vs. The Mafia

[The Parkus Empire]

There are far more statists then there are agorists. And statists can use force to make the agorists knuckle under. So while you're out there on the lunatic fringe, other people will actually get things done.

You probably would have been lunatic fringe in the Soviet Union or Fascist Italy. Just pointing that out.

The difference is that the "fringe" in many of those kinds of countries often used force to accomplish things. Even the anarchists of yesteryear were willing to fight to give their dreams a chance. The anarchists of today are largely just disgruntled and vocal (though this trend appears to be shifting somewhat in Europe).

[ZombieRothbard]

You probably would have been lunatic fringe in the Soviet Union or Fascist Italy. Just pointing that out.

The difference is that the "fringe" in many of those kinds of countries often used force to accomplish things. Even the anarchists of yesteryear were willing to fight to give their dreams a chance. The anarchists of today are largely just disgruntled and vocal (though this trend appears to be shifting somewhat in Europe).

Capitalist anarchists are entirely peaceful as far as I see. To be violent is to conflict with the ideals.

[Terra Agora]

You probably would have been lunatic fringe in the Soviet Union or Fascist Italy. Just pointing that out.

The difference is that the "fringe" in many of those kinds of countries often used force to accomplish things. Even the anarchists of yesteryear were willing to fight to give their dreams a chance. The anarchists of today are largely just disgruntled and vocal (though this trend appears to be shifting somewhat in Europe).

Inactive my ass, agorism is is very active.

The "anarchists"/Black Bloc in Europe are just a bunch of people who want to wreck shit. By all means that's fun but I wouldn't say they actual care about reaching anarchism. Most of them (or most AnComs in general) will sell out their beliefs to some welfare social democrat state.

[The Parkus Empire]

The difference is that the "fringe" in many of those kinds of countries often used force to accomplish things. Even the anarchists of yesteryear were willing to fight to give their dreams a chance. The anarchists of today are largely just disgruntled and vocal (though this trend appears to be shifting somewhat in Europe).

Capitalist anarchists are entirely peaceful as far as I see. To be violent is to conflict with the ideals.

Well, if I thought my government were as evil as you guys apparently think it is (in the vein of fascist dictatorships), I'd be utterly disgusted with myself were I too cowardly to take violent action against it.

[The Parkus Empire]

The difference is that the "fringe" in many of those kinds of countries often used force to accomplish things. Even the anarchists of yesteryear were willing to fight to give their dreams a chance. The anarchists of today are largely just disgruntled and vocal (though this trend appears to be shifting somewhat in Europe).

Inactive my ass, agorism is is very active.

The "anarchists"/Black Bloc in Europe are just a bunch of people who want to wreck shit. By all means that's fun but I wouldn't say they actual care about reaching anarchism. Most of them (or most AnComs in general) will sell out their beliefs to some welfare social democrat state.

Many of the of the governments under which this stuff is happening are "welfare democratic states".

[Terra Agora]

Inactive my ass, agorism is is very active.

The "anarchists"/Black Bloc in Europe are just a bunch of people who want to wreck shit. By all means that's fun but I wouldn't say they actual care about reaching anarchism. Most of them (or most AnComs in general) will sell out their beliefs to some welfare social democrat state.

Many of the of the governments under which this stuff is happening are "welfare democratic states".

social democrat

[The Parkus Empire]

Many of the of the governments under which this stuff is happening are "welfare democratic states".

social democrat

Exactly.

[Terra Agora]

social democrat

Exactly.

No im saying they are not social democratic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

[The Parkus Empire]

Exactly.

No im saying they are not social democratic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

In general, contemporary social democrats support:

A mixed economy consisting of both private enterprise and publicly owned or subsidized programs of education, universal health care, child care and related social services for all citizens.
An extensive system of social security (although usually not to the extent advocated by socialists), with the stated goal of counteracting the effects of poverty and insuring the citizens against loss of income following illness, unemployment or retirement.
Government bodies that regulate private enterprise in the interests of workers and consumers by ensuring labor rights (i.e. supporting worker access to trade unions), consumer protections, and fair market competition.
Environmentalism and environmental protection laws; for example, funding for alternative energy resources and laws designed to combat global warming.
A value-added/progressive taxation system to fund government expenditures.
A secular and a socially progressive policy.
Immigration and multiculturalism.
Fair trade over free trade.
A foreign policy supporting the promotion of democracy, the protection of human rights and where possible, effective multilateralism.
Advocacy of social justice, human rights, social rights, civil rights and civil liberties.

[Terra Agora]

No im saying they are not social democratic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

A mixed economy consisting of both private enterprise and publicly owned or subsidized programs of education, universal health care, child care and related social services for all citizens.
An extensive system of social security (although usually not to the extent advocated by socialists), with the stated goal of counteracting the effects of poverty and insuring the citizens against loss of income following illness, unemployment or retirement.
Government bodies that regulate private enterprise in the interests of workers and consumers by ensuring labor rights (i.e. supporting worker access to trade unions), consumer protections, and fair market competition.
Environmentalism and environmental protection laws; for example, funding for alternative energy resources and laws designed to combat global warming.
A value-added/progressive taxation system to fund government expenditures.
A secular and a socially progressive policy.
Immigration and multiculturalism.
Fair trade over free trade.
A foreign policy supporting the promotion of democracy, the protection of human rights and where possible, effective multilateralism.
Advocacy of social justice, human rights, social rights, civil rights and civil liberties.

And the grass is green...

There are no social democratic states.

Not to mention you leaving out the economic democracy part but if your going to be a stickler lets just say some form of state socialism or communism.

[GeneralHaNor]

Capitalist anarchists are entirely peaceful as far as I see. To be violent is to conflict with the ideals.

Well, if I thought my government were as evil as you guys apparently think it is (in the vein of fascist dictatorships), I'd be utterly disgusted with myself were I too cowardly to take violent action against it.

Violence is easy, that is why states use it to control the masses, to refrain from violence and adhere to principle is a courageous act, not that of a coward.

Ghandi is disappoint son.

[The Parkus Empire]

Well, if I thought my government were as evil as you guys apparently think it is (in the vein of fascist dictatorships), I'd be utterly disgusted with myself were I too cowardly to take violent action against it.

Violence is easy, that is why states use it to control the masses, to refrain from violence and adhere to principle is a courageous act, not that of a coward.

Ghandi is disappoint son.

Gandhi said the Jews should have just sucked it up when they were being systematically murdered by Hitler, and that the British should've immediately surrendered to the guy. He is not someone I seek to emulate, as I do find such attitudes as selfish, stupid and cowardly, not to mention grossly ineffective.

"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."
-Al Capone

This is eternally more practical than: "We'll be as stubbornly weak as possible and hope that our weakish weakness will make their hearts weaken."

[Lomenore]

Gandhi's methods worked in India because Britain was a democratic nation with open elections that responded to the wishes of its people. His methods for winning independence weren't some kind of magical actions that would always work. If a regime like the Nazis occupied India, they would have just shot Gandhi and anyone who emulated his methods.

[GeneralHaNor]

Violence is easy, that is why states use it to control the masses, to refrain from violence and adhere to principle is a courageous act, not that of a coward.

Ghandi is disappoint son.

Gandhi said the Jews should have just sucked it up when they were being systematically murdered by Hitler, and that the British should've immediately surrendered to the guy. He is not someone I seek to emulate, as I do find such attitudes as selfish, stupid and cowardly, not to mention grossly ineffective.

"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."
-Al Capone

This is eternally more practical than: "We'll be as stubbornly weak as possible and hope that our weakish weakness will make their hearts weaken."

Agorism is by no means "Passive"
Unless you think actively defunding the state by denying it tax revenue is passive.

[The Parkus Empire]

Gandhi's methods worked in India because Britain was a democratic nation with open elections that responded to the wishes of its people. His methods for winning independence weren't some kind of magical actions that would always work. If a regime like the Nazis occupied India, they would have just shot Gandhi and anyone who emulated his methods.

It's doubtful that his methods helpes significantly in bringing independence to India.

[Lomenore]

Agorism is by no means "Passive"
Unless you think actively defunding the state by denying it tax revenue is passive.

Are agorists basically going to impoverish themselves to avoid paying taxes? Will they refuse to pay tax as a form of protest? What happens if the state simply confiscates your property or garnishes your salary to make up for lost taxes?

Gandhi's methods worked in India because Britain was a democratic nation with open elections that responded to the wishes of its people. His methods for winning independence weren't some kind of magical actions that would always work. If a regime like the Nazis occupied India, they would have just shot Gandhi and anyone who emulated his methods.

It's doubtful that his methods significantly in helping bring independence to India.

Well, the idea at least was to attack the popular opinion of Great Britain, rather then attack its military control over India. In a state that doesn't regard public opinion, the idea is useless.

[Terra Agora]

Violence is easy, that is why states use it to control the masses, to refrain from violence and adhere to principle is a courageous act, not that of a coward.

Ghandi is disappoint son.

Gandhi said the Jews should have just sucked it up when they were being systematically murdered by Hitler, and that the British should've immediately surrendered to the guy. He is not someone I seek to emulate, as I do find such attitudes as selfish, stupid and cowardly, not to mention grossly ineffective.

Those weren't exactly his views but its basically it.

[The Parkus Empire]

Gandhi said the Jews should have just sucked it up when they were being systematically murdered by Hitler, and that the British should've immediately surrendered to the guy. He is not someone I seek to emulate, as I do find such attitudes as selfish, stupid and cowardly, not to mention grossly ineffective.

"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."
-Al Capone

This is eternally more practical than: "We'll be as stubbornly weak as possible and hope that our weakish weakness will make their hearts weaken."

Agorism is by no means "Passive"
Unless you think actively defunding the state by denying it tax revenue is passive.

Yes, it's (rather weak) passive resistance.

[Lomenore]

Refusing to pay taxes as a form of protest against the government is civil disobedience. That's passive resistance. Shooting the tax collector is active resistance.

[Terra Agora]

Refusing to pay taxes as a form of protest against the government is civil disobedience. That's passive resistance. Shooting the tax collector is active resistance.

Its more then tax resistance...

[GeneralHaNor]

Agorism is by no means "Passive"
Unless you think actively defunding the state by denying it tax revenue is passive.

Are agorists basically going to impoverish themselves to avoid paying taxes? Will they refuse to pay tax as a form of protest? What happens if the state simply confiscates your property or garnishes your salary to make up for lost taxes?

Yes, the ethical agorist (myself) will impoverish himself in order to deny the state (and in my case, the corporate power elite) the product of his labor.

If the state takes what little I have left that it has not already taken, it may do so, but in order to have any sort of functioning economy, you must have willing participants who can buy/sell/trade in that economy. By doing so they force economic contraction, making the wealth they have worth even less. It would be nothing more then a cycle of diminishing returns until all you have left is the Power Elite who support the system, and their slaves.

If the State does that, it shows everyone else what it's "priorities" are
At the end of the day, the state is made of people, at the end of the day, the people either support the state, or they don't, and if they cease to support the state, it dies.

[GeneralHaNor]

Agorism is by no means "Passive"
Unless you think actively defunding the state by denying it tax revenue is passive.

Yes, it's (rather weak) passive resistance.

The alternative you would require or respect, requires me to violate the non-agression principle

I do not believe that the ends can ever justify the means, as a matter of fact, an unethical means, always begets an unethical end, no matter how desirable.

[The Parkus Empire]

The alternative you would require or respect, requires me to violate the non-agression principle

So you would beat the living shit out of a woman for smacking you, but you won't fight a government that you feel is engaging in systematic theft, oppression and murder, since doing so conflicts with your ethics?

I do not believe that the ends can ever justify the means, as a matter of fact, an unethical means, always begets an unethical end, no matter how desirable.

So you are against lethal self defense?

[Drachmar]

Sometimes this evening...as I read this topic title..

I think it says "The State vs. The Zombies."

I think that would be a much better topic.

[GeneralHaNor]

The alternative you would require or respect, requires me to violate the non-agression principle

So you would beat the living shit out of a woman for smacking you, but you won't fight a government that you feel is engaging in systematic theft, oppression and murder, since doing so conflicts with your ethics?

I do not believe that the ends can ever justify the means, as a matter of fact, an unethical means, always begets an unethical end, no matter how desirable.

So you are against lethal self defense?

Perhaps your memory of my previous statements needs to be forgotten

Look, I have an evolving understanding of the world, things I said even as recent as 6 months ago might not be valid anymore.

To address the contradiction of my violence, I at my base nature am a violent person, I cannot say for certain how I would react in any given situation, there is the ideal response, the practical response, and the real response, all of these are different, and formed via conflicting interests.

As for the state, in it's current incarnation, is not such a threat that it must be destroyed actively with force, however it is a threat that must be ended, and Reform/Decentralization/Passive Resistance/Protest, are the orders of the day. Peace is always preferable to war.