Australian police given power to ask Muslims to remove burka

[Enadail]

This would involve fingerprinting the entire nation, spending billions of dollars to outfit every patrol car and every police station with the facilities required for fingerprint ID and violating everyone's freedom by keeping everyone's fingerprints on file.

Everyone doesn't like my proposal because of the logistics of keeping a fingerprint database and providing a fingerprint device for police officers. But couldn't it be done, like any other major project?

Vitaphone though brought up and interesting point that I never thought about. How does keeping everyone's fingerprints on file violate everyone's freedom, when you already have everyone's face on file? I'm not being sarcastic, I sincerely want to understand how.

At least in the US, all immigrants have their finger prints on record. If Australia doesn't do this as well, I'm shocked. So building a database of foreigners' finger prints is not difficult. On top of that, at least in the US, cop cars have computers on them with access to ridiculous levels of information on them. When they pull you over and get your ID then walk back to their car, what do you think they are doing? So giving them access to the finger print database, or at least a comparative software is not going miles out of the way. And as to actually getting the finger prints... while cops might not have finger print kits on them, finger print scanners can be fairly small (on the order of the volume of a TV remote) and fairly cheap (in comparison to other equipment cops get). A little training, and anyone can scan a finger print, plug it into their computer, and send it for comparison, getting back a result on ID.

So yes, finger printing on the go would actually be relatively easy. And it would be a lot more reliable then just an ID, whether someone is wearing face coverings or not. It wouldn't just be a boon to set it up to protect religious/cultural beliefs, but also for general security/safety. And as to building a national database, when you go to get your drivers license/state ID, get them scanned then. You get your picture taken, show various proofs of ID, why not finger printing too? Whats the real difference?

And I know finger prints change over time, but so do faces, and at least the odds of a false positive on finger printing are lower then the odds of false positives on a picture ID.

[Tergnitz]

Best law Australia has ever passed.

Yep, I agree 100% with you here Sun. It’s good to see that Australia is not heading down the European path of failed, enforced multiculturalism.

Furthermore, I think you will find this article regarding the rise in Middle-Eastern crime in Australia particularly interesting.

[Dazchan]

Best law Australia has ever passed.

Better than the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act 1900? The Australia Act 1986? Pretty much any law that isn't a pathetic knee-jerk reaction?

[Kalaspia-Shimarata]

The fuck? This law is retarded. 1 year jail sentence for not complying is a bit extreme. What does the world have against Muslims?

We don't have anything against muslims! The burqa is what we have the problem with. Living in the Canterbury-Bankstown region, I'm sick of these idiots always driving around causing car crashes and the police never being able to identify them. One year is definatly not too much, if anything, one year is not enough!

[North Palisades]

We wouldn't want to offend anybody's sensibilities. Clearly asking a Muslim woman to remove her burkha is unreasonable. Instead lets spend billions on creating a national DNA database or a fingerprint database so that we don't have to offend Muslim women.

[North Palisades]

Everyone doesn't like my proposal because of the logistics of keeping a fingerprint database and providing a fingerprint device for police officers. But couldn't it be done, like any other major project?

Vitaphone though brought up and interesting point that I never thought about. How does keeping everyone's fingerprints on file violate everyone's freedom, when you already have everyone's face on file? I'm not being sarcastic, I sincerely want to understand how.

At least in the US, all immigrants have their finger prints on record. If Australia doesn't do this as well, I'm shocked. So building a database of foreigners' finger prints is not difficult. On top of that, at least in the US, cop cars have computers on them with access to ridiculous levels of information on them. When they pull you over and get your ID then walk back to their car, what do you think they are doing? So giving them access to the finger print database, or at least a comparative software is not going miles out of the way. And as to actually getting the finger prints... while cops might not have finger print kits on them, finger print scanners can be fairly small (on the order of the volume of a TV remote) and fairly cheap (in comparison to other equipment cops get). A little training, and anyone can scan a finger print, plug it into their computer, and send it for comparison, getting back a result on ID.

So yes, finger printing on the go would actually be relatively easy. And it would be a lot more reliable then just an ID, whether someone is wearing face coverings or not. It wouldn't just be a boon to set it up to protect religious/cultural beliefs, but also for general security/safety. And as to building a national database, when you go to get your drivers license/state ID, get them scanned then. You get your picture taken, show various proofs of ID, why not finger printing too? Whats the real difference?

And I know finger prints change over time, but so do faces, and at least the odds of a false positive on finger printing are lower then the odds of false positives on a picture ID.

So a Muslim woman doesn't have to show her face to a police officer, but I have to give my fingerprint to get a driver's license? Sounds totally reasonable!

[Kalaspia-Shimarata]

We wouldn't want to offend anybody's sensibilities. Clearly asking a Muslim woman to remove her burkha is unreasonable. Instead lets spend billions on creating a national DNA database or a fingerprint database so that we don't have to offend Muslim women.

Sigging it!

[Kalaspia-Shimarata]

Everyone doesn't like my proposal because of the logistics of keeping a fingerprint database and providing a fingerprint device for police officers. But couldn't it be done, like any other major project?

Vitaphone though brought up and interesting point that I never thought about. How does keeping everyone's fingerprints on file violate everyone's freedom, when you already have everyone's face on file? I'm not being sarcastic, I sincerely want to understand how.

At least in the US, all immigrants have their finger prints on record.

Exept most muslims are born here so therefore not immigrants!

[Siorafrica]

The fuck? This law is retarded. 1 year jail sentence for not complying is a bit extreme. What does the world have against Muslims?

[Samuraikoku]

The only thing I disagree with is the penalty amount. The fact that they wear burqas don't mean that they shouldn't remove it to be identified. However, a year seems excessive. I'd make it a fine, and perhaps a lower prison sentence (2-3 months would be fine, and I'd add the possibility of probation).

[Forster Keys]

New South Wales police, actually.

This follows the case of a Muslim woman who lied about a police officer being racist and trying to rip off her tent, and then went to a police station and made a signed statement to the effect of that lie; she was found not guilty of making a false statement because the judge said the tent made it impossible to prove that she made the statement.

The NSW Government this week said it would draw up legislation allowing police to ask any person stopped during routine vehicle checks to remove burqas, niqabs or other head and face coverings at the roadside to verify their identities.

The move follows a Sydney judge's decision last week to quash a six-month jail sentence given to a burqa-wearing mother of seven, Carnita Matthews.

Mrs Matthews had been found guilty of falsely accusing Sen-Constable Paul Fogarty of forcibly trying to remove her burqa when she was pulled over while driving in June last year.

Anyone refusing to obey the law may face up to a year's jail under NSW legislation. Western Australia yesterday indicated it would adopt similar laws.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/pressur ... z1RGHnF2Fh

Best law Australia has ever passed. Cue liberal outrage.

I'm probably quite liberalish. And I'm not really outraged. Practically it makes common sense. You need to be able to identify someone. The court case was an absolute farce. As long as it's done in a sensible, considerate way I'm not that fussed. It's a necessity. The penalty is somewhat drastic though.

EDIT: Not the best law ever passed by any means. Practical yes, outstanding no.

[Der Teutoniker]

What does the world have against Muslims?

Well, humanity is not known for liking people who are different.

That being said, allowing people to be identified for legal situations is hardly out there. Perhaps Muslim women would be more consenting to providing blood samples for identification, rather than showing their face for a moment? Or perhaps you don't think motorcyclists should have to show their faces to law enforcement personnel (if they are wearing a face-covering helmet) or something of the like?

This law seems pretty on the ball - though I will certainly respect those Muslim's who keep true to their own culture.

[Der Teutoniker]

The only thing I disagree with is the penalty amount. The fact that they wear burqas don't mean that they shouldn't remove it to be identified. However, a year seems excessive. I'd make it a fine, and perhaps a lower prison sentence (2-3 months would be fine, and I'd add the possibility of probation).

And how many do you think will actually receive the full jail sentence?

[The Soviet Technocracy]

A simple national DNA database could solve this problem.

That's stupid, inefficient, against the right to privacy for people, and moreover, unnecessary.

He's British. What's privacy?

[Samuraikoku]

The only thing I disagree with is the penalty amount. The fact that they wear burqas don't mean that they shouldn't remove it to be identified. However, a year seems excessive. I'd make it a fine, and perhaps a lower prison sentence (2-3 months would be fine, and I'd add the possibility of probation).

And how many do you think will actually receive the full jail sentence?

That's not up to me, that's up to the judge.

[Kalaspia-Shimarata]

The Whole controversy started with this:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-n ... 6078801032

[Gauthier]

They should pass a law punishing burqa wearing by stripping the wearer naked in public.

[Karmaimps]

It seems fair that the law enforcement has people show there faces so they can identify people easier.If needed then the Muslim woman can just show her face to a female officer of the law.There is nothing in most Islam preventing them from taking off the face cover in that situation.

[Virega]

It is necessary for police to be able to identify a people who have broken the law. For people to be able to use religion as an excuse for breaking the law is just stupid. For people who haven’t actually seen the film clip here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao3-bNGG70w
Now only did this woman abuse a police officer she then went to the police station and filed a report against him. It’s a stupid thing to do in the first place. This law was not just thrown on the table because Australians are racist it was brought up because someone tried to abuse the system. Also for people who think this is racially intolerant here is a quote from one Muslim organisation agreeing with the proposal.
The Islamic Council of NSW and the Lebanese Muslim Association supported the laws. The chairman of the council, Khaled Sukkarieh, said there was nothing in the Koran or the Hadith saying women should not remove facial coverings for identification if a crime was suspected. ''It's got to be done sensitively but we trust our police officers," he said. Mariam Veiszadeh, a solicitor and Muslim who wears a hijab, said the laws were fair if they only applied to the face for identification purposes, and not to hair.

[Kalaspia-Shimarata]

They should pass a law punishing burqa wearing by stripping the wearer naked in public.

--Edited-Out--

[Sucrati]

Australia could just copy France and BAN them, but that would lead to a civil rights catastrophe where women would want to wear them but would be breaking the law while at the same time it's used as a item of oppressing women because of religious culture, wow, no one will win when it comes to Islam and civil rights.

[Saiwania]

I approve of this law, religion should be no excuse for concealing your identity.

[North Calaveras]

It seems fair that the law enforcement has people show there faces so they can identify people easier.If needed then the Muslim woman can just show her face to a female officer of the law.There is nothing in most Islam preventing them from taking off the face cover in that situation.

what if there are only male cops in the area, do they have to call in a female officer?

[Gauthier]

Australia could just copy France and BAN them, but that would lead to a civil rights catastrophe where women would want to wear them but would be breaking the law while at the same time it's used as a item of oppressing women because of religious culture, wow, no one will win when it comes to Islam and civil rights.

It's possible to win by banning Islam and killing Muslims.

[Der Teutoniker]

That's not up to me, that's up to the judge.

What you think is decided by a judge? You sound like a tool.