Gun Rights

[Caninope]

That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of that court case. It only said that the police can't be sued for failure to protect a citizen.

They all seem to have interpreted it that way.

Who is "they"? And why are "they" right?

[Der Teutoniker]

Ok, he is not a vigilante in that sense. Does that mean that everybody is not a vigilante?

They very act of patrol is a good thing. We cannot assume that every person who wants to patrol will be trained to a sufficent level.

You know, I can insult other people who believe in it while saying there are some exceptions who are actually well trained and not kids, right? Especially when I blatantly say it?

He is not a vigilante in any sense. His actions are not the actions of vigilantes. Some people are vigilantes. Good on them for making the world a better place.

You are correct, patrolling is good. There is not required level of training legally mandated to allow you to walk around your neighborhood. And... define: sufficient.

You still insulted him. Like I said, if you're gonna insult him, own it, don't run away from it. We all can read that you were clearly referring very specifically to G&D, and his specific behavior. I will say no more on the matter because I don't care about your attempt to weasel out of the responsibility for your words. If you can delude yourself into thinking you weren't insulting G&D, feel free.

[Alyakia]

Probably.

As opposed to not getting paid at all.

He doesn't patrol his community because he chooses that as a vocation. He patrols his community because he is concerned for it's safety. Wanting a safe community, and patrolling the streets for that end is different than wanting to be a cop. How old are you again? You know this forum has a minimum age of 13, right?

So, is the phrase "cops on the beat" new to you then?

You'll have definitely missed all the media talking about how we need more police patrolling to keep our streets safe and all the "Your community - Our priority" crap.

oh god cultuuuuuuuuuuure

Can't we get through this without making childish insults?

[Alyakia]

Ok, he is not a vigilante in that sense. Does that mean that everybody is not a vigilante?

They very act of patrol is a good thing. We cannot assume that every person who wants to patrol will be trained to a sufficent level.

You know, I can insult other people who believe in it while saying there are some exceptions who are actually well trained and not kids, right? Especially when I blatantly say it?

He is not a vigilante in any sense. His actions are not the actions of vigilantes. Some people are vigilantes. Good on them for making the world a better place.

You are correct, patrolling is good. There is not required level of training legally mandated to allow you to walk around your neighborhood. And... define: sufficient.

You still insulted him. Like I said, if you're gonna insult him, own it, don't run away from it. We all can read that you were clearly referring very specifically to G&D, and his specific behavior. I will say no more on the matter because I don't care about your attempt to weasel out of the responsibility for your words. If you can delude yourself into thinking you weren't insulting G&D, feel free.

I specifically complimented him oh my god

[Alyakia]

They all seem to have interpreted it that way.

Who is "they"? And why are "they" right?

Every other person that has posted?

[Der Teutoniker]

I specifically complimented him oh my god

In a different post, in a different context after your premature insult was debased, yes, you did.

[Graditora]

Lol! I love how he keeps saying, Do it. Lol it reminds me of a show i watched were the dude was saying the same thing(Back to seriousness) I believe everybody should have the right to have a gun, and the street I live on people get shanked here not shot, because it would be to risky to wake up the surrounding neighbors cause if any gun went off(Like yesterday, No lies) about 5 people with rifle and handguns responded but it was only a neighbor who was getting rid of a rodent problem, And so far I'm agreeing with Der Teutoniker.

[Alyakia]

Yeah, we do sorta disagree. WOW, IT'S ALMOST AS IF THIS IS... A CULTURAL DIFFERENCE.

I'm not sure we'd disagree too much on half-decent nations. Due to your support of vigilantism, we probably do disagree on civillization.

Yeah, you read that post wrong. Sorry. (You realize there are more people than G&D in the world, right?)

Does he mind that we keep talking about him?

It's clear we do disagree. So?

Who knows, I'm not going to compare notes, it doesn't matter.

I read the post wrong? Additionally, the crusader comment was in the direct context of talking about G&D, just because you didn't post it specifically at him, or mention him by name does not mean that you weren't specifically referring to him, we both know you were. If you are going to make half-cocked accusations, and disparaging comments about someone, at least be the minimum of reasonable, and own up to it, don't pussyfoot around it, we can all read that you typed it - and fooling only yourself just isn't good enough.

He posted information about himself on an internet forum - he knows the deal, if he minded people discussing him, he probably wouldn't have shared that information. Besides, I am defending his right action, why would he mind that?

Jesus christ. There are crusaders that are not G&D. After learning of his training and expereince, I specifically exempted him from the Batman comment. Do I need to hold your hand like a child and walk you through every godamned post?

I should just start posting police propaganda about community policing.

[Der Teutoniker]

So, is the phrase "cops on the beat" new to you then?

You'll have definitely missed all the media talking about how we need more police patrolling to keep our streets safe and all the "Your community - Our priority" crap.

oh god cultuuuuuuuuuuure

Can't we get through this without making childish insults?

Oh yeah, I forgot that cops are always on hand, in every neighborhood, in every city, in every community. I forgot that we don't need private citizens to patrol because the local constabulary across America has an average response time of less than 2 minutes.

I don't know what you are talking about.

I don't know what you are talking about.

I was not making childish insults. I was simply asking if you were aware of forum rules.

[Der Teutoniker]

I love how he keeps saying, Do it. Lol it reminds me of a show i watched were the dude was saying the same thing

I said it once.

[Alyakia]

I specifically complimented him oh my god

In a different post, in a different context after your premature insult was debased, yes, you did.

So... I insulted him... Then said that it was a stereotype that was wrong to be applied to him and complimented him. What the hell are you looking for here?

[Caninope]

Who is "they"? And why are "they" right?

Every other person that has posted?

Only others I've seen mention anything about that were GeneralHaNor and Der Teutoniker. While none of us who has mentioned it is a lawyer, nor has legal schooling, Neo Art has specifically addressed that issue before, using the all knowing knowledge that paying for law school can get ya.

[Der Teutoniker]

Jesus christ. There are crusaders that are not G&D. After learning of his training and expereince, I specifically exempted him from the Batman comment. Do I need to hold your hand like a child and walk you through every godamned post?

I should just start posting police propaganda about community policing.

You exempted him from the batman comment - the one accusation that I withdrew. You still hurled both other insults (complimenting him later does not nullify that you still insulted him.)

If I call you a filthy jerk, but then say your hair is nice, does that mean I didn't insult you? Obviously not. You definitely should at least try to apply a bare minimum of logic to your arguments.

I don't know what you are talking about.

[Der Teutoniker]

So... I insulted him... Then said that it was a stereotype that was wrong to be applied to him and complimented him. What the hell are you looking for here?

That. Simply the admission that you insulted him. Thank you for being done weaseling out of it.

[Graditora]

I reamber seeing it twice

[Der Teutoniker]

I reamber seeing it twice

It was quoted. That does not qualify as me having said it more than once.

[Alyakia]

So, is the phrase "cops on the beat" new to you then?

You'll have definitely missed all the media talking about how we need more police patrolling to keep our streets safe and all the "Your community - Our priority" crap.

oh god cultuuuuuuuuuuure

Can't we get through this without making childish insults?

Oh yeah, I forgot that cops are always on hand, in every neighborhood, in every city, in every community. I forgot that we don't need private citizens to patrol because the local constabulary across America has an average response time of less than 2 minutes.

I don't know what you are talking about.

I don't know what you are talking about.

I was not making childish insults. I was simply asking if you were aware of forum rules.

You shouldn't, but if you do I really can't be arsed with it anymore since it's 6AM and we've obviously reached the point where our views are irreconcilable. I guess we have PCSOs here (more accurately, down there) who are empowered citizens. Though many just make fun of them for being fake cops.

Yeah. You see, you say patrolling the community to make it safer isn't the same as wanting to be a police officer. The problem is that here, that is exactly what it is. I think we both already realise this difference is a problem.

Since you said you don't know I'm taking about: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-beat-cop.htm

herp derp derp

[Alyakia]

So... I insulted him... Then said that it was a stereotype that was wrong to be applied to him and complimented him. What the hell are you looking for here?

That. Simply the admission that you insulted him. Thank you for being done weaseling out of it.

Yes. I insulted him them apologised for it and amitted I was wrong. Are you thick?

[Der Teutoniker]

Are you thick?

No. Actually, my BMI isn't even listed on most scales because it is too low. Oh well.

[Der Teutoniker]

You shouldn't, but if you do I really can't be arsed with it anymore since it's 6AM and we've obviously reached the point where our views are irreconcilable. I guess we have PCSOs here (more accurately, down there) who are empowered citizens. Though many just make fun of them for being fake cops.

Yeah. You see, you say patrolling the community to make it safer isn't the same as wanting to be a police officer. The problem is that here, that is exactly what it is. I think we both already realise this difference is a problem.

Since you said you don't know I'm taking about: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-beat-cop.htm

herp derp derp

Ok, in the future, I will try to remember things that are untrue. Cops in America have horrible response times for most neighborhoods - what I did was satire for the purpose of illustrating how wrong you are - I should not have counted on your ability to understand the obvious satire, I'm sorry. You make fun of people for protecting their communities? People like you, then, should be despised, and cast out of civilized nations.

They are not at all the same. There are many things involved with being a police officer that are not involved with patrolling your own community. Can you really not understand that? I don't think very highly of you, I'll be honest, but you have to be smarter than that.

Oh, I'm sorry, I know what a "beat cop" is, I simply don't understand how it is relevant to the conversation. Perhaps you can show me the constables that patrol G&Ds community, and are immediately on hand in any situation? Ok then.

Good one? I really was asking if you were aware of that particular rule of the forum - you have not responded yet, I assume that until I mentioned it, you were unaware.

[Alyakia]

You shouldn't, but if you do I really can't be arsed with it anymore since it's 6AM and we've obviously reached the point where our views are irreconcilable. I guess we have PCSOs here (more accurately, down there) who are empowered citizens. Though many just make fun of them for being fake cops.

Yeah. You see, you say patrolling the community to make it safer isn't the same as wanting to be a police officer. The problem is that here, that is exactly what it is. I think we both already realise this difference is a problem.

Since you said you don't know I'm taking about: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-beat-cop.htm

herp derp derp

Ok, in the future, I will try to remember things that are untrue. Cops in America have horrible response times for most neighborhoods - what I did was satire for the purpose of illustrating how wrong you are - I should not have counted on your ability to understand the obvious satire, I'm sorry. You make fun of people for protecting their communities? People like you, then, should be despised, and cast out of civilized nations.

They are not at all the same. There are many things involved with being a police officer that are not involved with patrolling your own community. Can you really not understand that? I don't think very highly of you, I'll be honest, but you have to be smarter than that.

Oh, I'm sorry, I know what a "beat cop" is, I simply don't understand how it is relevant to the conversation. Perhaps you can show me the constables that patrol G&Ds community, and are immediately on hand in any situation? Ok then.

Good one? I really was asking if you were aware of that particular rule of the forum - you have not responded yet, I assume that until I mentioned it, you were unaware.

Yes, they have bad response times. Go do something about it, even if that involves patrolling.

It's completely relevant. Of course, I was talking about here. Their logo literally says "community policing". It is the entire foundation of their policing strategy. You can even join an entire service dedicated entirely to and created for the sole purpose of patrolling.

You seriously can't tell me how police officers patrolling is relevant to you talking about how private citizens need to patrol because police aren't enough and it's good to have more patrolling. Maybe his community is completely untouched. Go do something about it, even if that involves patrolling.

Of course I'm aware and it's transparently clear asking if I'm over 13 is an insult. Knock it off.

[Der Teutoniker]

Yes, they have bad response times. Go do something about it, even if that involves patrolling.

It's completely relevant. Of course, I was talking about here. Their logo literally says "community policing". It is the entire foundation of their policing strategy. You can even join an entire service dedicated entirely to and created for the sole purpose of patrolling.

You seriously can't tell me how police officers patrolling is relevant to you talking about how private citizens need to patrol because police aren't enough and it's good to have more patrolling. Maybe his community is completely untouched. Go do something about it, even if that involves patrolling.

Of course I'm aware and it's transparently clear asking if I'm over 13 is an insult. Knock it off.

I support such action. You are the one saying that people shouldn't patrol because "bad things might happen".

Oh, you were talking about an entirely different situation? One that makes your statement irrelevant to our current conversation, gotcha, irrelevant.

If police officers patrolled enough, private citizens would not need to. That some police officers patrol some communities some of the time does not mean that no one ever, anywhere needs to patrol their own community. I am, as I've said, in favor of citizens taking their protection into their own hands - you are the one arguing against it.

I did not ask if you were younger than 13. I asked your age. Then, unrelated, I asked if you were aware of forum rules. If you want to find an insult in that, be my guest.

[Alyakia]

Yes, they have bad response times. Go do something about it, even if that involves patrolling.

It's completely relevant. Of course, I was talking about here. Their logo literally says "community policing". It is the entire foundation of their policing strategy. You can even join an entire service dedicated entirely to and created for the sole purpose of patrolling.

You seriously can't tell me how police officers patrolling is relevant to you talking about how private citizens need to patrol because police aren't enough and it's good to have more patrolling. Maybe his community is completely untouched. Go do something about it, even if that involves patrolling.

Of course I'm aware and it's transparently clear asking if I'm over 13 is an insult. Knock it off.

I support such action. You are the one saying that people shouldn't patrol because "bad things might happen".

Oh, you were talking about an entirely different situation? One that makes your statement irrelevant to our current conversation, gotcha, irrelevant.

If police officers patrolled enough, private citizens would not need to. That some police officers patrol some communities some of the time does not mean that no one ever, anywhere needs to patrol their own community. I am, as I've said, in favor of citizens taking their protection into their own hands - you are the one arguing against it.

I did not ask if you were younger than 13. I asked your age. Then, unrelated, I asked if you were aware of forum rules. If you want to find an insult in that, be my guest.

Because you have no support system for them to be trained in.

oh for f-

Then go make your police officers do their goddamned jobs. We both want community policing, or at the least, people patrolling the community. I already have it, along with private citizens who are encouraged and enabled by the police. You don't have it, and have a very bad police force that forces private citizens to fill in the gaps. The problem is caused by the fact I keep failing to account for the fact a certain nation either won't or can't run a police for properly. Citizens shouldn't have any need to take protection into their own hands.

Of course, you want PSCOs or some sort of trumped up Neighbour Hood watch, except with guns. This is a hard premise to accept when actual police officers here don't have guns except in the area that used to have the military deployed there to "keep order". Obviosuly, the countries are completely different yadda yadda yadda and I'm not going down that tunnel.

Frankly, I'm getting sick of this shit. Can we just agree to disagree for now?

edit: yeah and even though this is still related it is kindof a derail ):

[Tsal-Kar]

Well, I don't feel like reading the whole "Yes! No!" Argument that seems to be going on, but here's what seems to be the gist:
A.) Cops do not exist to keep the community safe
B.) Some sort of citizen militia/vigilante group/security force/ whatever should patrol communities to protect from crime
C.) Citizens should be responsible for their own safety (I'm not sure if this means there should not be a police force, that police should not respond to 911 calls, or what)

So;
A.) At least in the U.S., the police force exists purely to serve the interests of the community - more specifically, to enforce the laws designed to protect the community, and put in place by said group. This involves patrolling areas, investigating crime, executing warrants, and hundreds (if not thousands) of other things that the police have taken it upon themselves to do. It is true that often they are not in time to stop crimes from happening, but this is not due to some failing on their part, but rather because of the fact that until they have some method of predicting the future and/or teleportation, they are largely going to be a reactive, not preventative, measure - moral education and teaching of the punishments for crimes are the prime methods of preventing what the police react to

B.) Again, basing this on the nation I live in, citizen patrol groups (while nice) would not be legal in all areas. Some states allow the defense of yourself and others, some restrict that to only loved ones or even only yourself, and some even prosecute you if you do not do something to help those you see being made the victim of crimes, whether that means calling the police, or taking it upon yourself to attack the bad guy. This doesn't just apply to states, either - counties and cities may have their own rules. So, while they could be useful in some places, in others these patrol groups could do nothing but call the police and hope.

C.) Citizens should be responsible for their own safety, in so far as not being ignorant, taking responsibility for themselves if they willingly go into a dangerous situation. And, yes, they should be able to defend themselves and others if attacked, and should be able to purchase weapons to aid in that. However, a police force should be in place to protect those who cannot or (for whatever reason) will not defend themselves

Finally, the past few pages don't seem to have had much, if anything, to do with gun rights, and have instead largely consisted of insults, and pointless arguments over what the purpose of police officers are, and who should protect the people. In order to keep this thread from being locked, I suggest a return to debating what this thread was made for - what right, if any, we have to bear arms.

[Pomplamouse]

i think that we should be able to carry guns, just not like automatic or semi-automatic weapons. sure a handgun is fine but i think that the bigger guns should be kept in wars and not a house.