Gun Rights

[Greed and Death]

And?

We are discussing guns, not murder.

"Additionally, look at the UK, they banned guns... their murder rate has not significantly decreased."

You literally just bloody said.

decreased from pre and post ban.

[Alyakia]

Yes, we've been over this. It means there is something wrong with your culture and country to the point you can't be trusted with guns. This is backed up pretty well by the fact police don't actually have to protect you.

Our culture does not matter. If you (a non-American) do not want to trust us with guns, come over here and forcefully remove every gun from the hands of Americans. If you cannot, or are unwilling to do that, then quit bitching about us not being trusted with guns. You aren't our nanny.

It's not the police's job to protect us. It is the job of every citizen to support mutual defense.

If guns aren't the problem, and cultural and socio-economic forces aren't the problem, what is?

Yes, I, alone, will come and take all your guns. All of them. By force.

It is the polices job to protect you. That is why they exist. (Hey, this could be a cultural thing too!)

[Idealismania]

If you banned guns people would use crossbows to kill other people.
In my opinion if you ban guns people would find some other way of killing animals and other people.

People managed to kill each other just fine before guns came about.

I have a feeling that we could relearn some of the lost arts. I own several swords, a scramasax, and a handaxe that I practice with. I could give lessons!

Lol is your name Dwight Shrute and do you happen to work for a paper company?

[Der Teutoniker]

Once upon my time my dad was drunk and violent. We called the cops. He decked them. Unless you believe that you will only ever deal with one or two kinds of crime within the community, the rarest kinds. Incidentally, this is why going our yourself is a terrible idea.

You really can't think of anyhting that could go wrong?

So that's a yes, you did miss it.

Ok, it sounds like G&D would call the cops in that situation. He wouldn't pull his gun and start firing blindly (eyes closed, pulling, not squeezing - that kind of thing.) Go go Gadget Strawman!

This is not what I said. You said G&D is only like to cause harm to his community - back it up, or shut up about it. If you will not back up your statements, then you must rescind them.

Nope. I heard you say "despite that you are older, you are still a childish cowboy wannabe"... and your equations to crusaders, or batman were made without that almost-nod to the fact that he is older than you. Obviously I paraphrased you there, we don't need another derail with you telling me you didn't technically say exactly those words. The intent was there and we both know it. Go go Gadget Strawman (a one trick pony... at least you mastered one trick really well.)

[Alyakia]

If you have created a nation where the job is the police is not to protect the citizens and your highest court explictly states this something has gone very very very very wrong.

[Der Teutoniker]

If guns aren't the problem, and cultural and socio-economic forces aren't the problem, what is?

Yes, I, alone, will come and take all your guns. All of them. By force.

It is the polices job to protect you. That is why they exist. (Hey, this could be a cultural thing too!)

I said our culture does not matter in that it does not change the right of the Just to carry weapons. I didn't say it wasn't somewhat of a problem.

Do it.

It may be the job of the police where you live, but that does not make it universal. Maybe you should understand that simply because something works one way in one place in the world, that isn't a universal truth. Yeah maybe. Out of curiosity, how old are you, and where do you live?

[Alyakia]

Once upon my time my dad was drunk and violent. We called the cops. He decked them. Unless you believe that you will only ever deal with one or two kinds of crime within the community, the rarest kinds. Incidentally, this is why going our yourself is a terrible idea.

You really can't think of anyhting that could go wrong?

So that's a yes, you did miss it.

Ok, it sounds like G&D would call the cops in that situation. He wouldn't pull his gun and start firing blindly (eyes closed, pulling, not squeezing - that kind of thing.) Go go Gadget Strawman!

This is not what I said. You said G&D is only like to cause harm to his community - back it up, or shut up about it. If you will not back up your statements, then you must rescind them.

Nope. I heard you say "despite that you are older, you are still a childish cowboy wannabe"... and your equations to crusaders, or batman were made without that almost-nod to the fact that he is older than you. Obviously I paraphrased you there, we don't need another derail with you telling me you didn't technically say exactly those words. The intent was there and we both know it. Go go Gadget Strawman (a one trick pony... at least you mastered one trick really well.)

Why doesn't he stop being essentially a vigilante and become a bloody cop or Police Community Support Officer (doesn't exist there? make it.) then?

No, I said it's possible if not likely people like G&Ds intention but not his training could fuck up badly, possibly getting himself and others killed.

Yeah, that's not what I said. Do I seriously need to pull up that exact fucking post?

[Der Teutoniker]

If you have created a nation where the job is the police is not to protect the citizens and your highest court explictly states this something has gone very very very very wrong.

Actually, our nation was designed that way from the beginning. In the first days of the US, there was not a universal police force in every community. The Constitution was set up so that people could protect themselves. I'd argue that G&D's ability to patrol his own community armed is actually a sign of tremendous Constitutional success. So really, something has gone very very very very (redundantly) right.

[Alyakia]

If guns aren't the problem, and cultural and socio-economic forces aren't the problem, what is?

Yes, I, alone, will come and take all your guns. All of them. By force.

It is the polices job to protect you. That is why they exist. (Hey, this could be a cultural thing too!)

I said our culture does not matter in that it does not change the right of the Just to carry weapons. I didn't say it wasn't somewhat of a problem.

Do it.

It may be the job of the police where you live, but that does not make it universal. Maybe you should understand that simply because something works one way in one place in the world, that isn't a universal truth. Yeah maybe. Out of curiosity, how old are you, and where do you live?

I'm coming. Right now. Get ready.

It is pretty much universal. It applies in every half-decent country I can think of but yours. Maybe if you spent less time patrolling the streets and making the police do their bloody jobs as defined by most of the civillized world we wouldn't have to have this conversation. It's clear something went very very very wrong.

Scotland, 3x-4x young than G&D. I can't stop saying G&D now. Thanks. G&D.

[Der Teutoniker]

Why doesn't he stop being essentially a vigilante and become a bloody cop or Police Community Support Officer (doesn't exist there? make it.) then?

No, I said it's possible if not likely people like G&Ds intention but not his training could fuck up badly, possibly getting himself and others killed.

Yeah, that's not what I said. Do I seriously need to pull up that exact fucking post?

He is not essentially a vigilante. Not at all. You must be unfamiliar with the word. Regardless, I support vigilantism, so you won't find my support by Strawmanning that. You're welcome to keep trying though. "If at first you don't succeed" and all that.

It could. It has not yet, and it seems unlikely that it will - especially given his training. The moon could crash into the Earth tomorrow, so we should all expect it to happen.

Do it.

[Greed and Death]

Ok, it sounds like G&D would call the cops in that situation. He wouldn't pull his gun and start firing blindly (eyes closed, pulling, not squeezing - that kind of thing.) Go go Gadget Strawman!

This is not what I said. You said G&D is only like to cause harm to his community - back it up, or shut up about it. If you will not back up your statements, then you must rescind them.

Nope. I heard you say "despite that you are older, you are still a childish cowboy wannabe"... and your equations to crusaders, or batman were made without that almost-nod to the fact that he is older than you. Obviously I paraphrased you there, we don't need another derail with you telling me you didn't technically say exactly those words. The intent was there and we both know it. Go go Gadget Strawman (a one trick pony... at least you mastered one trick really well.)

Why doesn't he stop being essentially a vigilante and become a bloody cop or Police Community Support Officer (doesn't exist there? make it.) then?

No, I said it's possible if not likely people like G&Ds intention but not his training could fuck up badly, possibly getting himself and others killed.

Yeah, that's not what I said. Do I seriously need to pull up that exact fucking post?

Because I would rather be a lawyer so I know exactly what i can get away with.

[Caninope]

If you have created a nation where the job is the police is not to protect the citizens and your highest court explictly states this something has gone very very very very wrong.

That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of that court case. It only said that the police can't be sued for failure to protect a citizen.

[Alyakia]

If you have created a nation where the job is the police is not to protect the citizens and your highest court explictly states this something has gone very very very very wrong.

Actually, our nation was designed that way from the beginning. In the first days of the US, there was not a universal police force in every community. The Constitution was set up so that people could protect themselves. I'd argue that G&D's ability to patrol his own community armed is actually a sign of tremendous Constitutional success. So really, something has gone very very very very (redundantly) right.

My city, depending on who you ask, had the worlds first or second police force. Huzzah for civillization.

You can protect yourselves. You shouldn't really have to, but hey.

I'm not sure why you're so opposed to people that want to do the jobs of police officers (in every half-decent nation) becoming polices officers or working together with police officers.

[Alyakia]

If you have created a nation where the job is the police is not to protect the citizens and your highest court explictly states this something has gone very very very very wrong.

That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of that court case. It only said that the police can't be sued for failure to protect a citizen.

They all seem to have interpreted it that way.

[Alyakia]

Why doesn't he stop being essentially a vigilante and become a bloody cop or Police Community Support Officer (doesn't exist there? make it.) then?

No, I said it's possible if not likely people like G&Ds intention but not his training could fuck up badly, possibly getting himself and others killed.

Yeah, that's not what I said. Do I seriously need to pull up that exact fucking post?

Because I would rather be a lawyer so I know exactly what i can get away with.

What you can get away with? Seriously?

[Der Teutoniker]

My city, depending on who you ask, had the worlds first or second police force. Huzzah for civillization.

You can protect yourselves. You shouldn't really have to, but hey.

I'm not sure why you're so opposed to people that want to do the jobs of police officers (in every half-decent nation) becoming polices officers or working together with police officers.

Wow, I bet it's not possible that we disagree with what "should be" the job of the police, what constitutes "half-decent nations", or what "civilization is.

Regardless of whether they have to protect themselves or not, they should be expected to be able to.

Oh, and here is where you called G&D a child-cowboy-wannabe, and a crusader. I couldn't find the batman reference, so I will drop that assertion.

a childs power fantasy playing cowboy, even if the person in question is probably 3-4x my age.

Armed crusaders patrolling the streets is the only option.

[Der Teutoniker]

What you can get away with? Seriously?

I think that was a joke.

Maybe he doesn't want to be ridiculously underpaid for a dangerous job?

[Alyakia]

Why doesn't he stop being essentially a vigilante and become a bloody cop or Police Community Support Officer (doesn't exist there? make it.) then?

No, I said it's possible if not likely people like G&Ds intention but not his training could fuck up badly, possibly getting himself and others killed.

Yeah, that's not what I said. Do I seriously need to pull up that exact fucking post?

He is not essentially a vigilante. Not at all. You must be unfamiliar with the word. Regardless, I support vigilantism, so you won't find my support by Strawmanning that. You're welcome to keep trying though. "If at first you don't succeed" and all that.

It could. It has not yet, and it seems unlikely that it will - especially given his training. The moon could crash into the Earth tomorrow, so we should all expect it to happen.

Do it.

He is not a vigilante because of our lgorious founding fathers dream as enshrined in the consitutuion.

Yes. It has not yet. We don't have any anecdotes of him actually doing goodd directly either. But the point is not everyone has his training.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=126542&p=6391574#p6391574

"really hard not to, even if" is an admission that I am wrong and bending to stereotypes. Maybe you're bad at interpreting my posts.

[Alyakia]

My city, depending on who you ask, had the worlds first or second police force. Huzzah for civillization.

You can protect yourselves. You shouldn't really have to, but hey.

I'm not sure why you're so opposed to people that want to do the jobs of police officers (in every half-decent nation) becoming polices officers or working together with police officers.

Wow, I bet it's not possible that we disagree with what "should be" the job of the police, what constitutes "half-decent nations", or what "civilization is.

Regardless of whether they have to protect themselves or not, they should be expected to be able to.

Oh, and here is where you called G&D a child-cowboy-wannabe, and a crusader. I couldn't find the batman reference, so I will drop that assertion.

a childs power fantasy playing cowboy, even if the person in question is probably 3-4x my age.

Armed crusaders patrolling the streets is the only option.

Yeah, we do sorta disagree. WOW, IT'S ALMOST AS IF THIS IS... A CULTURAL DIFFERENCE.

I'm not sure we'd disagree too much on half-decent nations. Due to your support of vigilantism, we probably do disagree on civillization.

Yeah, you read that post wrong. Sorry. (You realize there are more people than G&D in the world, right?)

Does he mind that we keep talking about him?

[Alyakia]

What you can get away with? Seriously?

I think that was a joke.

Maybe he doesn't want to be ridiculously underpaid for a dangerous job?

Probably.

As opposed to not getting paid at all.

[Der Teutoniker]

He is not a vigilante because of our lgorious founding fathers dream as enshrined in the consitutuion.

Yes. It has not yet. We don't have any anecdotes of him actually doing goodd directly either. But the point is not everyone has his training.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=126542&p=6391574#p6391574

"really hard not to, even if" is an admission that I am wrong and bending to stereotypes. Maybe you're bad at interpreting my posts.

No. He is objectively not a vigilante (according to the description he provided - which is all we have to go on.) Not because of the American Dream, or any such nonsense. He is not a vigilante because he does not attempt to hunt down, and distribute his own punishment to criminals.

His training is great. His level of training is not required. Citizens can train themselves. The very act of his patrol is a good thing.

Right, that little technicality really removes the insult from the child-cowboy-wannabe statement.

[Der Teutoniker]

Probably.

As opposed to not getting paid at all.

He doesn't patrol his community because he chooses that as a vocation. He patrols his community because he is concerned for it's safety. Wanting a safe community, and patrolling the streets for that end is different than wanting to be a cop. How old are you again? You know this forum has a minimum age of 13, right?

[Alyakia]

He is not a vigilante because of our lgorious founding fathers dream as enshrined in the consitutuion.

Yes. It has not yet. We don't have any anecdotes of him actually doing goodd directly either. But the point is not everyone has his training.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=126542&p=6391574#p6391574

"really hard not to, even if" is an admission that I am wrong and bending to stereotypes. Maybe you're bad at interpreting my posts.

No. He is objectively not a vigilante (according to the description he provided - which is all we have to go on.) Not because of the American Dream, or any such nonsense. He is not a vigilante because he does not attempt to hunt down, and distribute his own punishment to criminals.

His training is great. His level of training is not required. Citizens can train themselves. The very act of his patrol is a good thing.

Right, that little technicality really removes the insult from the child-cowboy-wannabe statement.

Ok, he is not a vigilante in that sense. Does that mean that everybody is not a vigilante?

They very act of patrol is a good thing. We cannot assume that every person who wants to patrol will be trained to a sufficent level.

You know, I can insult other people who believe in it while saying there are some exceptions who are actually well trained and not kids, right? Especially when I blatantly say it?

[Zonolia]

2. No. No it isn't. (Ask France.)

2. That, and if someone actually has the manpower and resources to establish an effective totalitarian dictatorship in America, I don't think disorganized local militias are going to be able to stop it from happening.

"disorganized local militias" Isn't that the definition of the colonial military? (you know those are the guys who pwned the British...) also its a civilian military in the US currently (civilian as in you're only swore to protect the nation not turn on it and turn on your families) I'm pretty sure if someone did rise up with troops to take over...people as in veterns would help organize an effective armed forces out of citizens

[Der Teutoniker]

Yeah, we do sorta disagree. WOW, IT'S ALMOST AS IF THIS IS... A CULTURAL DIFFERENCE.

I'm not sure we'd disagree too much on half-decent nations. Due to your support of vigilantism, we probably do disagree on civillization.

Yeah, you read that post wrong. Sorry. (You realize there are more people than G&D in the world, right?)

Does he mind that we keep talking about him?

It's clear we do disagree. So?

Who knows, I'm not going to compare notes, it doesn't matter.

I read the post wrong? Additionally, the crusader comment was in the direct context of talking about G&D, just because you didn't post it specifically at him, or mention him by name does not mean that you weren't specifically referring to him, we both know you were. If you are going to make half-cocked accusations, and disparaging comments about someone, at least be the minimum of reasonable, and own up to it, don't pussyfoot around it, we can all read that you typed it - and fooling only yourself just isn't good enough.

He posted information about himself on an internet forum - he knows the deal, if he minded people discussing him, he probably wouldn't have shared that information. Besides, I am defending his right action, why would he mind that?