Gun Rights

[Dododecapod]

but then only the outlaws will have guns and you won't stand a chance!!!

TOTAL ban on guns. Get rid of every single gun, so outlaws won't be able to get them either, and death sentence for having a gun. that will set people straight.

How? Seriously. There is no way to get all the guns out of private hands. Or simply making them. (The MAC-10 machine pistol is constructed out of stamped metal plates. The only machined section is the bolt, and you can turn that out on a lathe.)

[The Parkus Empire]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Community_Support_Officer

What do you guys think of this? :v

I think that is irrelevant, since I already pointed out that the cops' job is to arrest people, not defend them (at least in the U.S.).

[The Parkus Empire]

Outlaws who carry guns tend to already live a life at considerable risk of being terminated, so I doubt that would deter them.

If anything, it would encourage them to "go out with a bang" so to speak.

"You'll never take me alive!"

Yeah, they'd kill any cop who might discover their firearms. A search warrant? *bang*

[Alyakia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Community_Support_Officer

What do you guys think of this? :v

I think that is irrelevant, since I already pointed out that the cops' job is to arrest people, not defend them (at least in the U.S.).

You're entertaining the idea of leagues of Batmen patrllling the streets defending the citizens, you could at least comment on a system that actually exists.

You guys should probably do something about that. Just sayin'.

[Idealismania]

People have the right to defend themselves. How many people would be willing to rob a bank if they knew every person in there probably had a gun on them? Getting rid of all guns would be ideal and so would getting rid of disease and world hunger. There is a difference between the dream and the reality.

I just think stricter accountability laws should be enforced. EVERY gun made should have a serial number and listed in a database always with a human (not just a faceless organization like the Government) listed as the last person to have it in his/her posession from the time it is made until the time it is bought by the consumer. As soon as it trades hands, the list must be immediately updated. If that gun is ever used in a crime, the person on the list as having it last is held accountable. So if the gun is lost by an owner, they are not permitted to own one again. If it is stolen, a long wait period will go down along with an investigation to ensure it was really stolen. If another gun is stolen, then that person looses their gun ownership privledges since they can't be responsible enough to hold onto a deadly weapon. Plus, making it as inconvient as possible encourages people to hide and lock up their guns in case of actual theft.

well I was right there with you until you started punishing people for being victims.

I think you should have to pass a test and maintain a licence to own a gun, I have to maintain a licence to own a car, I have to maintain a licence to buy and use explosives, I have to maintain a licence to drive a passenger vehicle, guns fall in the same category of potential abuse and harm so requiring a licence, test, and records is not unreasonable.

The only reason I said people that get guns stolen should have to go through drama to get a new gun is because gun traders can use theft as a loophole to keep selling guns if they don't What would keep a gun dealer from buying say 100 guns then "getting robbed" so they go buy another 100 only to "get robbed" again. See what I'm getting at there?

[Der Teutoniker]

Did you not provoke the situation? Can you shoot them? Arrest them? What if you go too far?

Ridiculous. Obviously the criminals provoked any situation that arises negatively for them during the commission of their crimes.

Yes, if it comes to that. For mere vandals, it seems unlikely that it would.

There is no such thing as "too far" when defending your community, and your people from criminals, and those would actively harm your fellows, and your neighbors.

[Greed and Death]

Wil we execute them via firing squad? That would be ironic. Will the police have guns? Military?

What about execution via fishing squad? Fishing rods are pretty dangerous.

Military get guns but they are taken upon them leaving the warzone, police yes but their guns are under radar tracking so we know it's only the police with them.

Damn guess the military wont be able to practice with a gun at all then ?

[Der Teutoniker]

Total total ban on guns, if the person attacking you doesn't have a gun you don't need one either.

The problem with the logic in this post... is the total absence of logic.

People already own guns illegally. Making more gun ownership illegal will not make them stop getting illegal guns. I suggest you spend a minute or two thinking this over - seeing as how you have not yet done so.

[The Parkus Empire]

Military get guns but they are taken upon them leaving the warzone,

Just bribe the supply sergeant to write down that he took your weapon even when he didn't.

Seriously, even if they are taken from them, the weapons are stored in several locations that most soldiers have accessed multiple times in their careers. If you have the connections, it's not that hard to clean out one of those locations.

Then you have to take into account weapons used at the range. Soldiers have to practice, y'know. They have to qualify on a regular basis.

police yes but their guns are under radar tracking so we know it's only the police with them.

Corrupt cops would still sell firearms, they'd just make such cases look like theft.

[Alyakia]

Did you not provoke the situation? Can you shoot them? Arrest them? What if you go too far?

Ridiculous. Obviously the criminals provoked any situation that arises negatively for them during the commission of their crimes.

Yes, if it comes to that. For mere vandals, it seems unlikely that it would.

There is no such thing as "too far" when defending your community, and your people from criminals, and those would actively harm your fellows, and your neighbors.

I can think of many things that would be "too far", of course you'd write them off as ridiclous because they are too far.

[Mosasauria]

but then only the outlaws will have guns and you won't stand a chance!!!

TOTAL ban on guns. Get rid of every single gun, so outlaws won't be able to get them either, and death sentence for having a gun. that will set people straight.

Outlaws will still get guns illegally. Ever heard of the black market?

[Der Teutoniker]

Damn guess the military wont be able to practice with a gun at all then ?

You don't need practice. The minute you hold that gun, you become a man. Your gonads swell to inhuman proportions (in a good way, not a "get that checked out" way) and the gun imparts to you the knowledge of how to use it correctly, safely, and how to maintain it.

[The Parkus Empire]

I think that is irrelevant, since I already pointed out that the cops' job is to arrest people, not defend them (at least in the U.S.).

You're entertaining the idea of leagues of Batmen patrllling the streets defending the citizens, you could at least comment on a system that actually exists.

You guys should probably do something about that. Just sayin'.

Batman is a vigilante, there's a big difference. Vigilantes seek to do cops' (and frequently the court's) job, only "better". Concerned citizens with guns are just there to help you if you need it, which is not the police department's job.

[Der Teutoniker]

I can think of many things that would be "too far", of course you'd write them off as ridiclous because they are too far.

There is no extent of too far when defending your neighbors, your family, your friends, your community from those would harm them, or do evil.

[Alyakia]

I can think of many things that would be "too far", of course you'd write them off as ridiclous because they are too far.

There is no extent of too far when defending your neighbors, your family, your friends, your community from those would harm them, or do evil.

Torture. Bombings.

[The Parkus Empire]

There is no extent of too far when defending your neighbors, your family, your friends, your community from those would harm them, or do evil.

Torture. Bombings.

Heh, sounds like war.

[Alyakia]

You're entertaining the idea of leagues of Batmen patrllling the streets defending the citizens, you could at least comment on a system that actually exists.

You guys should probably do something about that. Just sayin'.

Batman is a vigilante, there's a big difference. Vigilantes seek to do cops' (and frequently the court's) job, only "better". Concerned citizens with guns are just there to help you if you need it, which is not the police department's job.

This conversation is ruined by the fact that the nation you are writing from has really really really shitty police deparments and courts not fitting of a civillized nation. What kind of place would create a police force whose primary purpose is not to protect the people?

You shouldn't need "concerned citizens" with guns to help you if you need it. This is why I made the Somalia comment earlier.

[Der Teutoniker]

Untrained people wandering the streets looking for crime with no actualy authority to stop crime that isn't murder or rape doesn't lead to very good places.

You are making more judgments. If he has enough sense, and benevolent community spirit to patrol his neighborhood in his "leisure" time, I would assume that he is actually trained in the use of a firearm.

He actually does have authority, granted by the law, to deter criminals. More than that, he has an authority granted much more intangibly by the very act of his service to his community. He needs no legal authority in this matter, his authority derives from his action itself.

And if he does stop a murder or rape? Or are you saying that one guy patrolling his local neighborhood in the hopes of deterring or stopping crime is worse than someone merely getting murdered or raped?

[The Parkus Empire]

Batman is a vigilante, there's a big difference. Vigilantes seek to do cops' (and frequently the court's) job, only "better". Concerned citizens with guns are just there to help you if you need it, which is not the police department's job.

This conversation is ruined by the fact that the nation you are writing from has really really really shitty police deparments and courts not fitting of a civillized nation. What kind of place would create a police force whose primary purpose is not to protect the people?

You shouldn't need "concerned citizens" with guns to help you if you need it. This is why I made the Somalia comment earlier.

Well, we do. And either way, a gun offers much more immediate protection than a cell phone and a response time.

[Der Teutoniker]

Torture. Bombings.

So long as the innocent are defended, there is no such thing as "too far" when combating evil. If a criminal has been entirely neutralized, there is no need for torture, or for bombings. If the criminal was justly killed, then there is no need for torture, or bombings.

[Alyakia]

Untrained people wandering the streets looking for crime with no actualy authority to stop crime that isn't murder or rape doesn't lead to very good places.

You are making more judgments. If he has enough sense, and benevolent community spirit to patrol his neighborhood in his "leisure" time, I would assume that he is actually trained in the use of a firearm.

He actually does have authority, granted by the law, to deter criminals. More than that, he has an authority granted much more intangibly by the very act of his service to his community. He needs no legal authority in this matter, his authority derives from his action itself.

And if he does stop a murder or rape? Or are you saying that one guy patrolling his local neighborhood in the hopes of deterring or stopping crime is worse than someone merely getting murdered or raped?

Law enforcement and protecting communities is more than just pointing a gun. Infact, there are entire countries that do it mostly without guns. If you aren't trained in how to restrain people, use non-lethal force and in conflict resolution, you'd be pretty much useless.

It has the potentional to go horribly wrong.

[Der Teutoniker]

You shouldn't need "concerned citizens" with guns to help you if you need it. This is why I made the Somalia comment earlier.

I think Urban Sprawl is likely the biggest problem. Cities are too big, and not laid out for quick travel to any one place necessarily.

Additionally, whether or not we "need" concerned citizens, that we have them is a heartwarming feeling. And under no circumstances should the right of the concerned citizen to look after his community be infringed upon. Such an idea is utterly disgusting, and inhuman.

[Alyakia]

Torture. Bombings.

So long as the innocent are defended, there is no such thing as "too far" when combating evil. If a criminal has been entirely neutralized, there is no need for torture, or for bombings. If the criminal was justly killed, then there is no need for torture, or bombings.

What if you get into something bigger? Organized crime? You need to find out information. Maybe you've found a hotbed of crime or an operation, but the real police just won't listen.

Have you ever noticed how the people who say things like "there is no such thing as "too far" when combating evil" often times end up doing horrifiv things in the name of "good"?

[Greed and Death]

Legitimate authority? The individual is the first unit of legitimate authority. Anyone seeking to defend the innocent, and uphold justice similarly has legitimate authority - regardless of whether the State agrees. In fact, if the State disagreed with his action in this regard, then the State would become illegitimate.

But your judgement of him is cool too. I hate everyone who isn't exactly like me, especially those people who don't have total disregard for the safety of their neighborhood.

Untrained people wandering the streets looking for crime with no actualy authority to stop crime that isn't murder or rape doesn't lead to very good places.

Oh yes, I hate him, I totally do, despite the fact I said that it's always good to have citizens take an active interest in the saftey of the community and said he's an older/wiser figure as far as I know. I literally hate him. Hate him for his guns. Die gun owners. Die.

1 I was trained by the military.

2. There is citizens arrest. You witness a crime you can detain a person until the police arrive.

[Der Teutoniker]

It has the potentional to go horribly wrong.

Everything has the potential to go horribly wrong. And all of that blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the criminals.