Gun Rights

[Lessnt]

You seem to ignore the fact that it depends on the projectile.
as guns CAN RELIABLY WOUND SOMEONE!!!
Like I said you lack understanding of guns.

No they can't. There isn't a single part of the body that can be reliably hit by an average shooter and take a bullet without immediately imperiling the life of the victim. Not only do you not understand guns you don't seem to understand the human body, we aren't built with a bunch of extra bits. Most of that stuff needs to be there in an unperforated state.

You do not understand projectile.
You do not understand velocity.
You do not understand grains.
You do not understand penetration.

[Vingtor]

But what if the Bourgeoisie is restricting the the right of the Proletariat to drive cars so as to restrict the freedom of movement that would lead to the worker's revolution? At what point do you stop trusting the goverment to know what is best for you? How do you maintain the abillity to correct a bad one?

The fact I don't trust the government doesn't mean I trust everyone else. When armed nutbags with unclear psychiatric histories and no certification are the alternative I'll cast my lot in with big brother.

But big brother is deliberatly keeping you down. There is only one Timothy McVeigh but two million goverment workers. If they decide to take your rights tommorrw how will you gain them back?

[Vingtor]

But you either don't grasp his point or are deliberately ignoring it. The catagories of guns he described are they are for. Saying a gun is for killing people is like saying a car is for teenagers making out. An important function to be sure, but hardly the breath and scope of it's total responsiblities.

I didn't ignore it I responded to it. Guns are designed to kill, even if it's not specifically intended to kill people it is intended to kill. Self Defense, Home Defense, and Hunting are categorically the activities of killing a person killing a person and killing an animal.

Ah, that makes more sense. You do not belive people should have an equalizer aginst the larger and physically more powerful? Or the more numerous? You trust the people around you more when you can't respond to any threat they could make aginst you?

[Des-Bal]

You do not understand projectile.
You do not understand velocity.
You do not understand grains.
You do not understand penetration.

velocity= Speed (more accurately speed and direction.
Grain= about 64 milligrams, used to describe the weight of a slug.
Penetration= I don't really know how to explain this without using the word penetration or sounding like the hulk editing a simple wiki article.

I'm not sure you understand that a low velocity bullet that fails to penetrate deeply will still kill you.

[Des-Bal]

Ah, that makes more sense. You do not belive people should have an equalizer aginst the larger and physically more powerful? Or the more numerous? You trust the people around you more when you can't respond to any threat they could make aginst you?

You got to the party late but I believe everyone who is trained and competent enough to reasonably do so should own a weapon.

[Lessnt]

You do not understand projectile.
You do not understand velocity.
You do not understand grains.
You do not understand penetration.

velocity= Speed (more accurately speed and direction.
Grain= about 64 milligrams, used to describe the weight of a slug.
Penetration= I don't really know how to explain this without using the word penetration or sounding like the hulk editing a simple wiki article.

I'm not sure you understand that a low velocity bullet that fails to penetrate deeply will still kill you.

incorrect in gun terms

[Des-Bal]

But big brother is deliberatly keeping you down. There is only one Timothy McVeigh but two million goverment workers. If they decide to take your rights tommorrw how will you gain them back?

If they take away our rights tomorrow I sincerely doubt there will still be two million government workers. I enjoy one of the lowest tax rates in the world one of the highest standards of living and the security of a system designed to prevent change as do two million government workers. When one of those things changes several others will.

[Vingtor]

Ah, that makes more sense. You do not belive people should have an equalizer aginst the larger and physically more powerful? Or the more numerous? You trust the people around you more when you can't respond to any threat they could make aginst you?

You got to the party late but I believe everyone who is trained and competent enough to reasonably do so should own a weapon.

Well that makes more sense, but I still do not understand. The goverment really shouldn't have the power to decide what the "right" person to defend themselves is. What keeps them from deciding that the poor or the culturally diffrent don't need guns? How do you decide who is the right person to decide who the right person is to defend themselves is? How do you keep yourself out of the "wrong" persons is?

[Lessnt]

Ah, that makes more sense. You do not belive people should have an equalizer aginst the larger and physically more powerful? Or the more numerous? You trust the people around you more when you can't respond to any threat they could make aginst you?

You got to the party late but I believe everyone who is trained and competent enough to reasonably do so should own a weapon.

The problem is:
That will not stop anyone from getting them.

[Des-Bal]

incorrect in gun terms

Please give the class your definition.

Well that makes more sense, but I still do not understand. The goverment really shouldn't have the power to decide what the "right" person to defend themselves is. What keeps them from deciding that the poor or the culturally diffrent don't need guns? How do you decide who is the right person to decide who the right person is to defend themselves is? How do you keep yourself out of the "wrong" persons is?

The law keeps them from deciding that part of the social contract is that you trust and obey the law if you can't accept that you have no place in society. There is no other alternative, who else would do it? A private organization could be corrupted even easier. Having inexperienced and mentally unstable people with guns is significantly more concerning to me than irrational fear of a police state.

[Des-Bal]

The problem is:
That will not stop anyone from getting them.

Yes it will. Will it still be possible? Yes. Will it be more difficult? Yes.

[Lessnt]

incorrect in gun terms

Please give the class your definition.

Look at a website that sells bullets.

[Lessnt]

The problem is:
That will not stop anyone from getting them.

Yes it will. Will it still be possible? Yes. Will it be more difficult? Yes.

Will it realistically stop the incompetent/mentally unstable/criminals from getting it?
No.
History has shown you cannot reliably keep weapons away.
Hell look at the nukes.

[Des-Bal]

Look at a website that sells bullets.

I don't need to, grain refers to the weight. 437 and a half grains equal one ounce. 1 ounce equals 28 grams and some change 28 and some change divided by 437 is .064 which is 64 miligrams.

[Lessnt]

Look at a website that sells bullets.

I don't need to, grain refers to the weight. 437 and a half grains equal one ounce. 1 ounce equals 28 grams and some change 28 and some change divided by 437 is .064 which is 64 miligrams.

The weight of what?

[Des-Bal]

Will it realistically stop the incompetent/mentally unstable/criminals from getting it?
No.
History has shown you cannot reliably keep weapons away.
Hell look at the nukes.

To this day no terrorist element has successfully used a nuclear weapon.

If a person has to find a black market arms dealer who isn't a cop and deals with walk ins he's still going to have to purchase that weapon and ammunition for it and somewhere between start to finish there are numerous opportunities to catch him. If some nut has a bad day and can just go buy a gun off a shelf it's an entirely different story.

[Calldar]

I remember 4 years ago when I was 17 our neighbor blew 2 guys away who broke into his house, we'll call him Mike. We were having a string of break-ins (homes, cars), and a woman down the block from us was mugged by 2 guys earlier that month.

Anyway these assholes came in through his backyard, get his backdoor open, and started rooting through his house. Well he woke up and saw them. One of the guys pulled a knife and the other reached into his jacket, so Mike put 2 10 guage slugs into one of them, and got the second guy right in the face with the 4th shot. Thankfully we lived in a state that has Castle Laws, so Mike was fine. One of the cops even complimented him on his accuracy with the last shot

After that we didn't have more crime in the neighborhood, and to my knowledge it's still safe. I also went out and got my gun license as soon as I was able to after that.

[Lessnt]

Will it realistically stop the incompetent/mentally unstable/criminals from getting it?
No.
History has shown you cannot reliably keep weapons away.
Hell look at the nukes.

To this day no terrorist element has successfully used a nuclear weapon.

If a person has to find a black market arms dealer who isn't a cop and deals with walk ins he's still going to have to purchase that weapon and ammunition for it and somewhere between start to finish there are numerous opportunities to catch him. If some nut has a bad day and can just go buy a gun off a shelf it's an entirely different story.

You misunderstand.
Nukes have been illegally obtain by many other nations.

[Des-Bal]

The weight of what?

I'm done explaining things to you use wikipedia.

[Conservatives states]

Whether it's for protection, revolution, or dueling purposes. I'm down.

[Des-Bal]

You misunderstand.
Nukes have been illegally obtain by many other nations.

There's a huge difference between a world leader with power over an entire countries resources and one crazy guy.

[Lessnt]

The weight of what?

I'm done explaining things to you use wikipedia.

I understand your done explaining things.
As you cannot explain it to me without knowing it.

[Lessnt]

You misunderstand.
Nukes have been illegally obtain by many other nations.

There's a huge difference between a world leader with power over an entire countries resources and one crazy guy.

you misunderstand again.
The point is keeping weapons away from those whom you do not want to have them has in general always failed.

[Calldar]

You seem to ignore the fact that it depends on the projectile.
as guns CAN RELIABLY WOUND SOMEONE!!!
Like I said you lack understanding of guns.

Not to intrude on you guys' little argument, but this is hilariously misinformed.

The only way a gun can reliably wound someone is if you are using non-lethal ammunition. Period. You do not shoot to wound, you shoot to kill.

Even small calibers can destroy organs, sever arteries and destroy brain matter. The whole "shoot somebody in the leg or the arm with a .22 to wound them" is pure bullshit.

4 words. Bacharial and Femoral artery.

[Des-Bal]

I understand your done explaining things.
As you cannot explain it to me without knowing it.

I've given you exact measurements and definitions you've done nothing but insist your a genius.

you misunderstand again.
The point is keeping weapons away from those whom you do not want to have them has in general always failed.

Your point was innacurate.