Ultimate Football (Soccer) Thread (2011-2012)

[Fnordgasm 5]

^ So he's basically Man Utd's answer to Andrea Pirlo?

EDIT: for the record...
Pirlo's stats, according to juvefc.com; 1 goal, 6 assists, 85.5% pass completion
after 11 games, he had 54 tackles according to goal.com
can't find an interceptions stat right now.

Carrick is just a bit more attractive than Pirlo, though, which we all know is the best way to judge the merit of a footballer.

Gareth Bale you handsome devil you.

Does anyone else think that Gareth Bale looks like an extra from Planet of the Apes?

edit: just checked the intertubes. It's not just me.

[Acivica]

Old Firm...

[Serrland]

In my FM 2012 game the Wales team, led by manager Ryan Giggs, made it to the semi-finals of Euro 2016. Is my game predicting the future, I wonder? More about Giggs being manager of Wales than the results, really. I can actually see that happening once he retires from playing.

[Phoenigetuzstha]

In my FM 2012 game the Wales team, led by manager Ryan Giggs, made it to the semi-finals of Euro 2016. Is my game predicting the future, I wonder? More about Giggs being manager of Wales than the results, really. I can actually see that happening once he retires from playing.

In my FM2012 game, Olimpia Balti won the Europa League, so its not a reliable source for information...

[Serrland]

In my FM 2012 game the Wales team, led by manager Ryan Giggs, made it to the semi-finals of Euro 2016. Is my game predicting the future, I wonder? More about Giggs being manager of Wales than the results, really. I can actually see that happening once he retires from playing.

In my FM2012 game, Olimpia Balti won the Europa League, so its not a reliable source for information...

You can't see Giggsy getting the job some day? Seems to me he'd be pretty darn perfect for it.

[Phoenigetuzstha]

In my FM2012 game, Olimpia Balti won the Europa League, so its not a reliable source for information...

You can't see Giggsy getting the job some day? Seems to me he'd be pretty darn perfect for it.

I can see him being an Assistant Manager, and maybe, just maybe a manager one day, but it doesn't seem that likely at the moment.

[Hossaim]

If man united win tomorrow, we just need to match city. How the fuck did we pull this off?

[Fartsniffage]

If man united win tomorrow, we just need to match city. How the fuck did we pull this off?

Michael Carrick.

The fucker may just well be Fergie's best ever signing.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Hang on...Carrick...a great midfielder?

oh man...I needed the laugh to start the day! Thanks!

Nadkor says what.

wow!

@ Nadkor - excellent posts! Lots of stats etc nice!

However stats are stats but don't give enough of a picture. For example pass completion...some one might have a high pass completion rate but that state does not tell how often that pass put the receiving player in trouble or in a good position that leads to a goal.

Also how do we define a holding midfielder? What stats are relevant to that position compared to a 'normal' midfielder?

Thing is ...Carrick is not a great...but he is reliable. Like David Batty back in the day.... you know he will get the tackles in and break up attacking moves. You won't get consistent well played attacks from him...killer passes and the like. Certainly both did that on occasion but not consistently.

[Nadkor]

Nadkor says what.

wow!

@ Nadkor - excellent posts! Lots of stats etc nice!

However stats are stats but don't give enough of a picture. For example pass completion...some one might have a high pass completion rate but that state does not tell how often that pass put the receiving player in trouble or in a good position that leads to a goal.

Also how do we define a holding midfielder? What stats are relevant to that position compared to a 'normal' midfielder?

I addressed these points in the first two paragraphs of the first post linked

Thing is ...Carrick is not a great...but he is reliable. Like David Batty back in the day.... you know he will get the tackles in and break up attacking moves. You won't get consistent well played attacks from him...killer passes and the like. Certainly both did that on occasion but not consistently.

But then if you actually watch United play you'll see that he supports our attacks incredibly well. Not only does he screen the centre of the defence excellently and force attacking moves out wide where they run out of space (which very often goes along way towards nullifying the effect of a number 10/deep-lying forward, or of an attacking midfielder looking to take up position between our midfield and defence and work from there). If Carrick's playing tonight, and I'm guessing he probably will, watch out for him. Watch the positions he takes up, watch how it reduces the options the opposition has through the middle (in our 5-0 defeat of Fulham earlier in the season it was noticeable how relatively little influence Dempsey was able to exert), watch how he reduces the space for the opposition's midfield, and watch how he intercepts and recycles into sustained possession or the foundation of an attacking move.

What Carrick does is usually very quiet and understated, and you have to be looking out for it a lot of the time, but it's incredibly effective - unfortunately people don't tend to notice because he's not going around all gung-ho like Scott Parker, and we all know how the English appreciate charging around all over the place even if you're not being that effective over quietly going about doing your job incredibly well. I'd attribute quite a lot of our defensive strength this season to the return of Carrick after the City game (although Jonny Evans return to most impressive form this season has certainly contributed to that). When he hasn't played our defence has been vulnerable, and when he has played it has been very strong.

And re: tackling - he tends to intercept the ball much more often than actually tackling for it. This suggests an intelligence in his reading of the game that enables him to gain the ball without having to resort to a tackle (I remember, for example, a Xabi Alonso interview where he said "I don't think tackling is a quality, it is a recurso, something you have to resort to, not a characteristic of your game. At Liverpool I used to read the matchday programme and you'd read an interview with a lad from the youth team. They'd ask: age, heroes, strong points, etc. He'd reply: 'Shooting and tackling'. I can't get into my head that football development would educate tackling as a quality, something to learn, to teach, a characteristic of your play. How can that be a way of seeing the game? I just don't understand football in those terms. Tackling is a [last] resort, and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition. It's hard to change because it's so rooted in the English football culture, but I don't understand it." and I'd have to agree with him) which allows him to turn his acquiring possession into something more substantial a lot quicker than winning the ball in the tackle allows - it's much easier to either retain possession or instigate attacking moves if you've won the ball through closing down and intercepting than through tackling.

In all seriousness, I take how highly someone rates Carrick to be a pretty good indicator of how well they actually understand football.

[Drexel Hillsville]

Old Firm...

I think one of my bar buddies put it best. That official didn't deserve to be fired. He deserved to be hung drawn and quartered.

[Serrland]

Old Firm...

I think one of my bar buddies put it best. That official didn't deserve to be fired. He deserved to be hung drawn and quartered.

Careful now. We mustn't speak ill of SPL officials, lest they go on strike again...

[Utopia FTW]

Come on you reds!

[Utopia FTW]

Come on you reds!

Get it!
Team Rooney.

[Serrland]

Come on you reds!

Get it!
Team Rooney.

A goal is a goal, but almost unlucky timing, innit? Once that first one falls in a match like this the floodgates open - but in this case there is halftime so Fulham can calm down and get things straightened up in the locker room. Usually right before halftime is a great time to score, but I'm not sure about in this case.

Still, though, I should expect at least another goal.

[Utopia FTW]

Get it!
Team Rooney.

A goal is a goal, but almost unlucky timing, innit? Once that first one falls in a match like this the floodgates open - but in this case there is halftime so Fulham can calm down and get things straightened up in the locker room. Usually right before halftime is a great time to score, but I'm not sure about in this case.

Still, though, I should expect at least another goal.

Fergie been saying that we're hitting stride at the perfect time. And that basically we won't slip up. But you never know. At least on paper we should win this match handily.

[Drexel Hillsville]

Just watched the USA v El Salvador Olympic qualifiers match. I'm speechless. The last three days of soccer have been absolutely painful. Union lost. Celtic lost. US U23s lost and tied to get knocked out of qualifiers. Dear lord I might be sick after that ending...

[Serrland]

Just watched the USA v El Salvador Olympic qualifiers match. I'm speechless. The last three days of soccer have been absolutely painful. Union lost. Celtic lost. US U23s lost and tied to get knocked out of qualifiers. Dear lord I might be sick after that ending...

Time to start the "olympic footy? what's that!" mode for the next four years.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

wow!

@ Nadkor - excellent posts! Lots of stats etc nice!

However stats are stats but don't give enough of a picture. For example pass completion...some one might have a high pass completion rate but that state does not tell how often that pass put the receiving player in trouble or in a good position that leads to a goal.

Also how do we define a holding midfielder? What stats are relevant to that position compared to a 'normal' midfielder?

I addressed these points in the first two paragraphs of the first post linked

Thing is ...Carrick is not a great...but he is reliable. Like David Batty back in the day.... you know he will get the tackles in and break up attacking moves. You won't get consistent well played attacks from him...killer passes and the like. Certainly both did that on occasion but not consistently.

But then if you actually watch United play you'll see that he supports our attacks incredibly well. Not only does he screen the centre of the defence excellently and force attacking moves out wide where they run out of space (which very often goes along way towards nullifying the effect of a number 10/deep-lying forward, or of an attacking midfielder looking to take up position between our midfield and defence and work from there). If Carrick's playing tonight, and I'm guessing he probably will, watch out for him. Watch the positions he takes up, watch how it reduces the options the opposition has through the middle (in our 5-0 defeat of Fulham earlier in the season it was noticeable how relatively little influence Dempsey was able to exert), watch how he reduces the space for the opposition's midfield, and watch how he intercepts and recycles into sustained possession or the foundation of an attacking move.

What Carrick does is usually very quiet and understated, and you have to be looking out for it a lot of the time, but it's incredibly effective - unfortunately people don't tend to notice because he's not going around all gung-ho like Scott Parker, and we all know how the English appreciate charging around all over the place even if you're not being that effective over quietly going about doing your job incredibly well. I'd attribute quite a lot of our defensive strength this season to the return of Carrick after the City game (although Jonny Evans return to most impressive form this season has certainly contributed to that). When he hasn't played our defence has been vulnerable, and when he has played it has been very strong.

And re: tackling - he tends to intercept the ball much more often than actually tackling for it. This suggests an intelligence in his reading of the game that enables him to gain the ball without having to resort to a tackle (I remember, for example, a Xabi Alonso interview where he said "I don't think tackling is a quality, it is a recurso, something you have to resort to, not a characteristic of your game. At Liverpool I used to read the matchday programme and you'd read an interview with a lad from the youth team. They'd ask: age, heroes, strong points, etc. He'd reply: 'Shooting and tackling'. I can't get into my head that football development would educate tackling as a quality, something to learn, to teach, a characteristic of your play. How can that be a way of seeing the game? I just don't understand football in those terms. Tackling is a [last] resort, and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition. It's hard to change because it's so rooted in the English football culture, but I don't understand it." and I'd have to agree with him) which allows him to turn his acquiring possession into something more substantial a lot quicker than winning the ball in the tackle allows - it's much easier to either retain possession or instigate attacking moves if you've won the ball through closing down and intercepting than through tackling.

In all seriousness, I take how highly someone rates Carrick to be a pretty good indicator of how well they actually understand football.

LOL can you say bias? (sorry but that did strike me as funny)

I've just had four root canals about 2 hours ago so am eager to take a shit load of painkillers which will leave me a drooling wreck but I wanted to post a reply or at least a quick one...

If you are saying that Carrick is as great a player as Roy Keane was then yes I would question your sanity. Or Scholes.

If you are saying that Carrick is a good solid and dependable player with little imagination but very much boosted by the management of SAF...getting the best out a top player.

[Utopia FTW]

[spoiler]

Nice, I thnk I might be due for a check up with my dentist. But she's danish, so I can't understand what the fuck she sez

[Nadkor]

I addressed these points in the first two paragraphs of the first post linked



But then if you actually watch United play you'll see that he supports our attacks incredibly well. Not only does he screen the centre of the defence excellently and force attacking moves out wide where they run out of space (which very often goes along way towards nullifying the effect of a number 10/deep-lying forward, or of an attacking midfielder looking to take up position between our midfield and defence and work from there). If Carrick's playing tonight, and I'm guessing he probably will, watch out for him. Watch the positions he takes up, watch how it reduces the options the opposition has through the middle (in our 5-0 defeat of Fulham earlier in the season it was noticeable how relatively little influence Dempsey was able to exert), watch how he reduces the space for the opposition's midfield, and watch how he intercepts and recycles into sustained possession or the foundation of an attacking move.

What Carrick does is usually very quiet and understated, and you have to be looking out for it a lot of the time, but it's incredibly effective - unfortunately people don't tend to notice because he's not going around all gung-ho like Scott Parker, and we all know how the English appreciate charging around all over the place even if you're not being that effective over quietly going about doing your job incredibly well. I'd attribute quite a lot of our defensive strength this season to the return of Carrick after the City game (although Jonny Evans return to most impressive form this season has certainly contributed to that). When he hasn't played our defence has been vulnerable, and when he has played it has been very strong.

And re: tackling - he tends to intercept the ball much more often than actually tackling for it. This suggests an intelligence in his reading of the game that enables him to gain the ball without having to resort to a tackle (I remember, for example, a Xabi Alonso interview where he said "I don't think tackling is a quality, it is a recurso, something you have to resort to, not a characteristic of your game. At Liverpool I used to read the matchday programme and you'd read an interview with a lad from the youth team. They'd ask: age, heroes, strong points, etc. He'd reply: 'Shooting and tackling'. I can't get into my head that football development would educate tackling as a quality, something to learn, to teach, a characteristic of your play. How can that be a way of seeing the game? I just don't understand football in those terms. Tackling is a [last] resort, and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition. It's hard to change because it's so rooted in the English football culture, but I don't understand it." and I'd have to agree with him) which allows him to turn his acquiring possession into something more substantial a lot quicker than winning the ball in the tackle allows - it's much easier to either retain possession or instigate attacking moves if you've won the ball through closing down and intercepting than through tackling.

In all seriousness, I take how highly someone rates Carrick to be a pretty good indicator of how well they actually understand football.

LOL can you say bias? (sorry but that did strike me as funny)

I've just had four root canals about 2 hours ago so am eager to take a shit load of painkillers which will leave me a drooling wreck but I wanted to post a reply or at least a quick one...

If you are saying that Carrick is as great a player as Roy Keane was then yes I would question your sanity. Or Scholes.

If you are saying that Carrick is a good solid and dependable player with little imagination but very much boosted by the management of SAF...getting the best out a top player.

I'm not saying that Carrick is Scholes. Or Keane, Or Xavi Hernandez. Or Iniesta. He is, however, one of the best midfielders in the league, and more than good enough to be playing for any of the top clubs in Europe (Barca aside, maybe). I don't see much of a difference between Carrick and, say, Xabi Alonso, for example.

[Miasto Lodz]

I'm not saying that Carrick is Scholes. Or Keane, Or Xavi Hernandez. Or Iniesta.

That's right,...

He is, however, one of the best midfielders in the league, and more than good enough to be playing for any of the top clubs in Europe (Barca aside, maybe).

...because he's actually a fifth defender.

I don't see much of a difference between Carrick and, say, Xabi Alonso, for example.

The Basque is playing 15-20 m closer to the opponent's goal.

Apparently Sir Alex is trying to reinvent the old German concept of Vorstopper and that's why Carrick should rather be compared to Buchwald or Karl-Heinz Foerster.

Btw, I don't quite understand this whole fetishisation of passing accuracy, especially when we're talking about the defensive players. In Germany nobody is going crazy when Papadopoulos or Hummels are completing nearly (or exactly) 100% of their passes.

[I V Stalin]

Btw, I don't quite understand this whole fetishisation of passing accuracy, especially when we're talking about the defensive players. In Germany nobody is going crazy when Papadopoulos or Hummels are completing nearly (or exactly) 100% of their passes.

It's a cause-and-effect thing. People see Barca kicking the shit out of the rest of Europe and see they have a high pass completion rate. Ergo, to them, these two are linked. Of course, this is an extremely opportune time to wheel out my two favourite sayings:



1. Correlation does not imply causation!
2. People are stupid.

[Cromarty]

I'm not saying that Carrick is Scholes. Or Keane, Or Xavi Hernandez. Or Iniesta.

That's right,...

He is, however, one of the best midfielders in the league, and more than good enough to be playing for any of the top clubs in Europe (Barca aside, maybe).

...because he's actually a fifth defender.

No not really.

[Nadkor]

I'm not saying that Carrick is Scholes. Or Keane, Or Xavi Hernandez. Or Iniesta.

That's right,...

He is, however, one of the best midfielders in the league, and more than good enough to be playing for any of the top clubs in Europe (Barca aside, maybe).

...because he's actually a fifth defender.

Well, no, he isn't. He operates quite defensively, but he isn't a fifth defender, at least not specifically. There's a difference between operating defensively and actually being a defender. He's very definitely a midfielder, but when we're on the defensive he will drop and sit in front of the penalty box and in front of the back four. Occasionally he will drop back into the back four, as is to be expected from a deeper sitting midfielder when his team is defending in the box. Look at a heatmap of his passes, tackles, and interceptions from, I think, his first 12 games this season to give us an idea of where he operates:



Here's one of just his tackles and interceptions, to give an idea of more purely defensive actions:


60.34% of what he's doing occurs in either the midfield or attacking third. 39.66% occurs in United's defensive third, but only 4.16% of that occurs in the penalty box. You can see that, when he is playing defensively (i.e. closing down and winning the ball back) he is operating primarily in front of where you would normally expect to find the purely defensive players (i.e. the centre backs). You can also see that he regularly wins the ball back higher up the pitch, being particularly effective when he's just in front of the half-way line, closing down and winning the ball back when a United attack goes awry and before the opposition can put anything together - 47.5% of his tackles and interceptions combined take place in the space between the half-way line and the opposition's penalty box.

And, most conclusively this:

Carrick is number 16, located almost exactly on the centre spot. The centre backs (numbers 5 and 6) are clearly behind him, in a definitely different position. Giggs (11) is just in front of him, and Scholes (22) played alongside him when he came on.

Carrick operates defensively, primarily, but he is not a fifth defender. He's a defensively-minded midfielder (but not, let's be clear, a defensive midfielder in the Busquets, Mascherano, or Makalélé moulds)

I don't see much of a difference between Carrick and, say, Xabi Alonso, for example.

The Basque is playing 15-20 m closer to the opponent's goal.

No, not really.

Here can see Alonso's (number 14) average position from Real's victory over Real Sociedad at the weekend:


This is almost identical to Carrick's average position last night.

Here is Alonso's positional heatmap from Real's 4-1 defeat of Atheltico in towards the end of the last calendar year:


Here is Carrick's positional heatmap from the game last night:


Compare these and the two average position maps. The two players are clearly operating in similar areas - primarily in and around the centre circle.

Apparently Sir Alex is trying to reinvent the old German concept of Vorstopper and that's why Carrick should rather be compared to Buchwald or Karl-Heinz Foerster.

Eh...no.

Btw, I don't quite understand this whole fetishisation of passing accuracy, especially when we're talking about the defensive players. In Germany nobody is going crazy when Papadopoulos or Hummels are completing nearly (or exactly) 100% of their passes.

If we were talking about defensive players I would agree with you, but we're not.