Without America Would the Allies have lost WWII?

[Buffett and Colbert]

US involvement was completely irrelevant.

Yeah, that's so wrong it hurts. If nothing else, you may want to read up on Lend-Lease.

Lend-lease helped, but it did was not a deciding factor of the war.

[Yootopia]

The Soviet Union won World War II. All other effort is completely irrelevant.

... not really... without Lend-Lease they would've had a harder fight of it in the earlier days of the Great Patriotic War, and without Britain tying down the Tallies, Germans etc. all over Africa, some of the better German generals might have ended up on the eastern front instead of just getting bored, also bombed, in North Africa.

[Augmark]

take into account that the Germans would be able to refine the weapons to be more accurate and deadly, without the constant threat of Allied Air supremacy.

The Russians had air supremacy by 1943. They just didn't bomb all that much shit because they didn't need to. Nothing stopping them hypothetically making more bombers...

Though nothing impressive initially, they could open up a door of horrors. Lob over a V-rocket filled with gas=a lot of dead people. No, the Germans didn't use gas in combat in WW2, but because this is a what if thread...

... yeah the Germans didn't use that kind of thing because they knew that the British and Russians would rub anthrax in their face.

Everything I'm saying can't be separated from my other points. Its all "What if" Germany had the industrial capability to achieve air superiority. Nothing I'm saying happened, but could have happened only along a specific course of events in my original post.

[Lizardiar]

US involvement was completely irrelevant.

Yeah, that's so wrong it hurts. If nothing else, you may want to read up on Lend-Lease.

Lend-lease helped, but it did was not a deciding factor of the war.

Really? I guess all those ships, planes, weapons, clothes, food, tanks, etc. was just useless.

[Augmark]

Hitler wanted Britain to come to peace with Germany. They refused. He realized they needed to take Britain out of the war. Britain wasn't considered "A natural Enemy" like the communist and Slavs.

... sort of irrelevant since the German Airforce bombed our cities thus Dresden etc. was pretty much kosher.

that was after sealion began

[Yootopia]

Hitler wanted Britain to come to peace with Germany. They refused. He realized they needed to take Britain out of the war. Britain wasn't considered "A natural Enemy" like the communist and Slavs.

... sort of irrelevant since the German Airforce bombed our cities thus Dresden etc. was pretty much kosher.

that was after sealion began

Yeah I know...

[Bavin]

I'm not quite sure which way the war would have gone, but didn't the USSR prevail due, in large part, to aid from the US? I could have sworn I heaing a quote from Zhukov that went something like "without the US Hitler's meddling in the German Army, the Soviet Union would have collapsed by the end of 1941."

Fixed

[The Master M]

The Soviet Union won World War II. All other effort is completely irrelevant.

As stated in the Hossbach Memorandum, it was Hitlers plan to invade the USSR in the first place. There was one vital flaw in this plan; France, Britain and the other European countries had enough of Germany's expansionist views and warned them after Czechoslovakia to stop or go to war. Thisin mind, Hitler outlined the need to get Britain, France and allies out of the picture, and then take on the USSR.

Without France, Britain and the other nations, the USSR would have had 6 million well armed and well trained german soldiers marching through their lands. But because these countries were alligned against germany the Germans had to defeat them first, costing them many trops. Even after the BEF pulled out, Britian remained a big enough threat to necessitate the bilding of the 'Atlantikwall', making sure that large portions of german troops were tied down in the west. Lets not also forget the German presence in North Africa, without the British to fight them there that would be many more troops to aid in the destruction of the USSR.

[Gleinster]

Why do people think that the USSR would necessarily have beaten the Germans anyway?

Without the promise of US involvement at some later date perhaps the political will to continue fighting past 1943 would not have been there.

Most historian today would follow AJP Taylor's assessment of World War 2, that the reason Germany invaded Russia in the first place was that they suspected that the US would enter the war at some point and they wanted to knock Russia out before that happened.

If America did not exist then there is always the possibility that Germany and Russia could have continued their non-aggression agreement beyond 1941, perhaps leaving Germany enough time and resources to secure the channel and give the British a damn good hiding. Although it seems unlikely that peace between Jerry and Ivan could last very long.

[Augmark]

I'm not quite sure which way the war would have gone, but didn't the USSR prevail due, in large part, to aid from the US? I could have sworn I heaing a quote from Zhukov that went something like "without the US Hitler's meddling in the German Army, the Soviet Union would have collapsed by the end of 1941."

Fixed

absolutely correct

[Bluth Corporation]

I recall 2,000,000 German losses to 10,000,000 Soviets Losses?

Victory in combat, whether in a single engagement or an entire war, is not determined by "who scores the most points." It's whoever's left standing in the contested area when it's all over.

Also:
"Bom, bom, bom bom-bom; bom, bom, bom bom-bom; bom, bom, bom bom-bom; bom bom bom bom bom bom-bom; bom bom bom bom bom bom-bom; bom bom, bom, bom bom-bom; bom, bom, bom bom bom bom bom bom, bom, bom bom-bom; bom bom-bom; bom bom-bom (bom bom-bom bom-bom; bom bom-bom bom-bom)"

[Yootopia]

Why do people think that the USSR would necessarily have beaten the Germans anyway?

Larger production base, much higher population, more diverse natural resources and a command economy that provided a smooth(ish) transition to a wartime economy, esp. since in the latter half of the 1930s the Russians were already spending a vast amount on military production and R&D.

[Chrobalta]

Maybe, hard to say.


They would have been capable of devoting more forces to the eastern front. The lend lease act is also key, it accounted for a tremendous amount of the allied industrial output. During 43-44, 25% of British munitions came from the lend lease act. >17,000 Sherman tanks were delivered to the UK. (they were the most numerous allied tank at El Alamein II. If they did not have to worry about the allies (as much) on the western front, then one can always hypothesize that they may have won the battle of Moscow (though IDK about Stalingrad).

But could they allies have "lost". Probably not, They did not have a navy capable of invading Britain, or Canada. The Soviet Union would have been able to rebound eventually. Maybe a stalemate on the eastern front? Maybe.

Can't give a definitive answer because I don't have all the numbers to crunch and don't know how things would have turned out exactly.

[The German Region]

The Soviet Union won World War II. All other effort is completely irrelevant.

Not sure about that. If Britain had just laid down and surrendered we would have had no problems in the West or North Africa. Germany could have sent the majority of its divisions from France in to the war on the Eastern Front and (can't believe im saying it) the Italians would have also joined in on the Eastern Front.

If British and Norwegian Commando's hadn't destroyed the Heavy Water facilities in Norway then we would have had the Atomic Weapon and I dont think Hitler would've thought twice about using it on the Rusky's. The Soviets didnt even have a nuclear programme yet.

But this is just speculation. We'll never know.

[Morrdh]

The Allies would've won eventually WITHOUT American help, us Brits had already won the Battle of Britain in 1940 and were making headway in North Africa by the end of 1941. There would have been no Normandy Landings though, the focus of the Commonwealth war effort would have been on Italy and the 'soft underbelly of Europe' that Churchill was so bloody obsessed about in both world wars. By the end of the war there most likely would have been another Brit-Soviet linkup for an Anglo-Soviet offensive like Iran....'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' type of deal given how much our drunken old war time leader loathed the Soviets.

The V-weapons had the same effort as the Blitz....it hardened the British public's resolve to beat the Hun bastards across the channel. As for nukes, Germany lacked a focused and co-ordinated nuclear programme (ie 'Manhatten Project) and was incapable of producing a working reactor let alone an atomic bomb.

Operation Sealion only came about after Hitler buggered his own plans up in 1939, he HAD wanted us Brits as allies. Since he screwed up that idea by invading Poland and then France in 1940 the Hun realized we weren't gonna be so easily beaten and so hastily drew up invasion plans....plans that have since been proven to fail. Had the Germans wanted until 1945 when they had a proper navy built, then things would've been very different.

Question now is, does the American non-intervention include letting the British-Japanese alliance continue pass 1920?

[Psychotic Mongooses]

Most historian today would follow AJP Taylor's assessment of World War 2, that the reason Germany invaded Russia in the first place was that they suspected that the US would enter the war at some point and they wanted to knock Russia out before that happened.

Well..... that and Hitler's pathological hatred of Communism, which I think played more of a part than anything else.

[Sdaeriji]

The Soviet Union won World War II. All other effort is completely irrelevant.

... not really... without Lend-Lease they would've had a harder fight of it in the earlier days of the Great Patriotic War, and without Britain tying down the Tallies, Germans etc. all over Africa, some of the better German generals might have ended up on the eastern front instead of just getting bored, also bombed, in North Africa.

Also, without Lend-Lease, Hitler might not have declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor. In his war declaration speech, he cited US economic aid under the Lend-Lease program to the countries fighting Germany as a reason for war.

[Yootopia]

Also, without Lend-Lease, Hitler might not have declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor.

Erm Hitler declaring war on the US was rather immaterial

[The Master M]

For those who believe the Hossbach Memorandum, USSR was Hitlers original target

[Gleinster]

Why do people think that the USSR would necessarily have beaten the Germans anyway?

Larger production base, much higher population, more diverse natural resources and a command economy that provided a smooth(ish) transition to a wartime economy, esp. since in the latter half of the 1930s the Russians were already spending a vast amount on military production and R&D.

Did they not have all these things in June 1941?

Technically the population of Germany and her allies and her occupied territory in 1942 was quite similar to the portion of the USSR that remained in Stalin's hands.

The only natural resource that Germany was short on in 1942 was oil and it didn't become a REAL problem until 1944.

I also think the Germans spent quite a lot on military production and R&D

[Heinleinites]

US involvement was completely irrelevant.

Yeah, that's so wrong it hurts. If nothing else, you may want to read up on Lend-Lease.

Lend-lease helped, but it did was not a deciding factor of the war.

And the fact that it did help would belie the original claim, which was that US involvement was completely irrelevant.

Why do people think that the USSR would necessarily have beaten the Germans anyway?

Possibly, because over the course of forty-odd years, capitalism and the West pantsed them and dragged their naked pink butts around the muddy practice field in front of the metaphorical cheerleaders. They need something to inject a little pride back in, and nobody cares who made it into space first anymore.

[Sdaeriji]

Also, without Lend-Lease, Hitler might not have declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor.

Erm Hitler declaring war on the US was rather immaterial

I disagree. There was still an extremely strong isolationist sentiment in the US even after Pearl Harbor that only wanted war declared on Japan. From the perspective of a large percentage of people, Germany and Italy still had not done anything warranting war. Hitler's declaration bailed Roosevelt out by giving him an excuse to get involved in Europe. And, while US involvement in Europe may not have been critical in defeating Germany, it was certainly beneficial. Without US involvement, the Iron Curtain may very well have fallen through France instead of Central Europe.

[Yutugeria]

The question should be:
Without Canada, would the Allies have lost WWII?

[Psychotic Mongooses]

And, while US involvement in Europe may not have been critical in defeating Germany, it was certainly beneficial. Without US involvement, the Iron Curtain may very well have fallen through France instead of Central Europe.

Well yeh, but that's not the thread is it

[Gleinster]

The question should be:
Without Canada, would the Allies have lost WWII?

Totally, the troops would have mutinied without all that bacon and maple syrup.