Collectivised Ideologys (Facism,Socialism and Communism)

[Doichlogs]

Who says you have to have an industry behind you to better your life? None of the things you mention have a collective functioning behind them... they have their own individual motivations.

I wasn't arguing about collectivity. History Land argued that art, philosophy and science were tied to material items, and I presented my argument against it.

But the argument is wrong, just because a corporation isn't behind it doesn't mean it lacks material motivation.

[New Kereptica]

The Federal Reserve was the problem in that crisis

correct as it is in every recession. read mises everyone just google the name hayek works as well. the federal reserve creates a few problems first it has absolute authority over a fiat money supply and thus can cause massive inflation and deflation which can freeze credit markets because of lack of money or devalue currency to the point where there isnt a point in holding it. next it decides the amount that banks have to hold in reserve which when lowered multiplys the money system and the opposite when it is raised further changing the reserve requirment creates an enormous amount of strain on banks because it makes it difficult for them to decide on how much must be held because the rate could be changed. furthermore the fed can issue more and more money when the gov. needs it making balancing the budget irrelevant of the federal level leading to massive spending followed by massive inflation. finally the fed can stimulate false economic booms via raising the money supply which lead to false strength and fake growth that inevitably leads to recessions and depressions

Recessions existed before the Federal Reserve did.

[Neu California]

A quick question for History Land:

Under a pure capitalist system, what's to keep someone from setting uo a business around slavery of any sort (Sexual comes to mind immediately) and/or human trafficking?

[Robustian]

No, they're abstractions. Art, Science and Philosophy can be created by anyone, anywhere, whether they're a CEO or a ditch digger, and whether they are in an artist's studio or simply arranging pebbles in the dirt. These things are not tied to the world of economics, no matter what the capitalists try to make everyone believe with the barbaric system of patents and copyrights.

Science can be created by anyone, not tied to economics?

What fantasy world do you live in? I have yet to see science not consume capital...

[Samatolian City-States]

Damn it, you're just supporting the corporations' exploitation of the people. How individualistic is factory work? Or sitting in a cubicle all day? Or being one in a hundred thousand suit monkeys, plotting and planning the fate of your small groups of pathetic underlings? Boy, when you grow to be older, you will understand the realities of the world you inhabit. Naivete will not save you.

Now, don't take me the wrong way. A Collectivist government only takes the same problem out of the hands of the corporations and into the hands of the government. You'll still slave away, and get nothing for it.

You should read this. http://www.census.gov/epcd/www/smallbus.html

Your fiction about how capitalism is all about giant corporations is pretty much nonsense. The VAST majority of businesses are small, and employ majority of employees. There are about 17 million one man or partnership businesses, that don't even have employees.

For many decades, the growth of employment in the US has basically been due to small business. As far as the country goes, as far as the number of people who earn or obtain a living, the 'big corporations' are mostly irrelevant.

Yes, it is possible to own a small business. I am in fact an advocate of small-scale capitalism. However, some markets are completely dominated by large businesses. Why does no one grow tobacco in their yards and sell it by the ounce, like marijuana?

[New Kereptica]

A quick question for History Land:

Under a pure capitalist system, what's to keep someone from setting uo a business around slavery of any sort (Sexual comes to mind immediately) and/or human trafficking?

slaver deosn't exist in capitalism, obveously

[Capitalistliberals]

Well, you've just destroyed you're position. Do you realize how wrong you are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery. Read this. All of it.

his answer is correct yours is incorrect as is wikipedia. a gov that says its capatilist is not always capatilist. moreover and idea such as slavery defiles the principle of a market in that there is no exchange in resources for work in slavery as such a true capatilist system(there has never been one nor will there be one in the seeable future) would reject slavery

[Robustian]

Yes. A few individuals control everything, and the masses get fucked over. Look at our recent mortgage crisis. How many lost their homes because the interest rates decided to skyrocket?

LOL!!!

You really are clueless, huh?

People borrowed money at sub market rates, and could not pay when the rates normalized. That's called "being stupid".

BTW, that whole mess was caused by socialist policies by the government.

[History land]

Are you saying that slavery has never existed under a capitalist system.

It has not and never will

Well, you've just destroyed you're position. Do you realize how wrong you are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery. Read this. All of it.

One Slavery can not exsit in a captialist society because it`s froced work. America with slavery means it`s not a captialist country

[New Kereptica]

Well, you've just destroyed you're position. Do you realize how wrong you are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery. Read this. All of it.

his answer is correct yours is incorrect as is wikipedia. a gov that says its capatilist is not always capatilist. moreover and idea such as slavery defiles the principle of a market in that there is no exchange in resources for work in slavery as such a true capatilist system(there has never been one nor will there be one in the seeable future) would reject slavery

Under what twisted system of logic would a capitalist society reject a free source of work?

[Doichlogs]

Slavery passes over the right of contract element that is essential to Capitalism, and is therefore un-Capitalist.

[Capitalistliberals]

Recessions existed before the Federal Reserve did.

if not the federal reserve than a similar institution... for instance b4 the fed in the 19th century each state in the US had its own central bank that printed currency or made these decisions as has every civilization since history began the government has always controlled currency in some sense and has always held the main bank, whatever it is called doesnt change its existence

[History land]

A quick question for History Land:

Under a pure capitalist system, what's to keep someone from setting uo a business around slavery of any sort (Sexual comes to mind immediately) and/or human trafficking?

yes by law since that would be illigeal since it uses force they can not leave that job and they recive no pay and nothing is traded.

[Robustian]

Yes, it is possible to own a small business. I am in fact an advocate of small-scale capitalism. However, some markets are completely dominated by large businesses. Why does no one grow tobacco in their yards and sell it by the ounce, like marijuana?

Why are you asking me?

BTW, I run a small business. I compete against the "big corporations. My competition is Qwest and Charter Communications. I'm doing well. Why? Because big companies are very inefficient.

[New Kereptica]

Recessions existed before the Federal Reserve did.

if not the federal reserve than a similar institution... for instance b4 the fed in the 19th century each state in the US had its own central bank that printed currency or made these decisions as has every civilization since history began the government has always controlled currency in some sense and has always held the main bank, whatever it is called doesnt change its existence

So recessions are impossible in barter economies?

[Neu California]

Well, you've just destroyed you're position. Do you realize how wrong you are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery. Read this. All of it.

his answer is correct yours is incorrect as is wikipedia. a gov that says its capatilist is not always capatilist. moreover and idea such as slavery defiles the principle of a market in that there is no exchange in resources for work in slavery as such a true capatilist system(there has never been one nor will there be one in the seeable future) would reject slavery

I'm not sure how that was a rebuttal.

Capitalism implies that there is a market, and in that market are those that want a service and those those that provide it (barring regulation), and assuming that there are people willing to buy slaves, and people willing to sell them, and no third actor intervened on whatever scale this was happening on, wouldn't that imply that the free market lets slavery happen?

[Capitalistliberals]

Under what twisted system of logic would a capitalist society reject a free source of work

answer this before, what is capitalism. because what you think it is it is not

[History land]

Well, you've just destroyed you're position. Do you realize how wrong you are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery. Read this. All of it.

his answer is correct yours is incorrect as is wikipedia. a gov that says its capatilist is not always capatilist. moreover and idea such as slavery defiles the principle of a market in that there is no exchange in resources for work in slavery as such a true capatilist system(there has never been one nor will there be one in the seeable future) would reject slavery

Under what twisted system of logic would a capitalist society reject a free source of work?

Then it`s not captialist. It`s honest work that everything follows the trader princapal. if it`s free work then nothing is traded and captialism is destoryed

[Doichlogs]

You can't be pro-small business and anti-big business. All* small businesses aspire to be big businesses some day, denying them the right to become one is illogical.


*may be some weirdo businesses out there that don't...

[Avenio]

Who says you have to have an industry behind you to better your life? None of the things you mention have a collective functioning behind them... they have their own individual motivations.

I wasn't arguing about collectivity. History Land argued that art, philosophy and science were tied to material items, and I presented my argument against it.

But the argument is wrong, just because a corporation isn't behind it doesn't mean it lacks material motivation.

How so? True artists do not create for the sake of money, they create for the sake of expressing themselves and to present a small iota of beauty in an otherwise ugly and brutal existance. True scientists and philosophers likewise wish to learn not out of a drive for material wealth, but simply for the sake of learning itself.

No, they're abstractions. Art, Science and Philosophy can be created by anyone, anywhere, whether they're a CEO or a ditch digger, and whether they are in an artist's studio or simply arranging pebbles in the dirt. These things are not tied to the world of economics, no matter what the capitalists try to make everyone believe with the barbaric system of patents and copyrights.

Science can be created by anyone, not tied to economics?

What fantasy world do you live in? I have yet to see science not consume capital...

Astronomy is an excellent example of this. Anyone with a pair of eyes that takes the time to look to the stars can discover something new about the Universe. This does not consume materials, and anyone can uncover something potentially life changing for the rest of us.

[Capitalistliberals]

So recessions are impossible in barter economies?

barter economies dont make sense and dont actually function. money has intrinsic properties like portability and versatility that make it possible for real economics. moreover yes in a barter economy there would be no recession there would be no recessions in the sense in which im speaking. there will still be market downturns but they would be much less severe and less frequent so you may be right strictly speaking that a recession could occur but it would be much less of a problem absent the fed

[History land]

Well, you've just destroyed you're position. Do you realize how wrong you are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery. Read this. All of it.

his answer is correct yours is incorrect as is wikipedia. a gov that says its capatilist is not always capatilist. moreover and idea such as slavery defiles the principle of a market in that there is no exchange in resources for work in slavery as such a true capatilist system(there has never been one nor will there be one in the seeable future) would reject slavery

I'm not sure how that was a rebuttal.

Capitalism implies that there is a market, and in that market are those that want a service and those those that provide it (barring regulation), and assuming that there are people willing to buy slaves, and people willing to sell them, and no third actor intervened on whatever scale this was happening on, wouldn't that imply that the free market lets slavery happen?

But a slave is not payed and is forced to give work to the buyer there fore nothing is traded it`s not captialism. Because slavery can only exsit through force and in captialism force and fraud do not exsit

[New Kereptica]

Under what twisted system of logic would a capitalist society reject a free source of work

answer this before, what is capitalism. because what you think it is it is not

Capitalism: "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market" - Merriam Webster

I see nothing that forbids slavery in that definition,.

[Neu California]

his answer is correct yours is incorrect as is wikipedia. a gov that says its capatilist is not always capatilist. moreover and idea such as slavery defiles the principle of a market in that there is no exchange in resources for work in slavery as such a true capatilist system(there has never been one nor will there be one in the seeable future) would reject slavery

I'm not sure how that was a rebuttal.

Capitalism implies that there is a market, and in that market are those that want a service and those those that provide it (barring regulation), and assuming that there are people willing to buy slaves, and people willing to sell them, and no third actor intervened on whatever scale this was happening on, wouldn't that imply that the free market lets slavery happen?

But a slave is not payed and is forced to give work to the buyer there fore nothing is traded it`s not captialism. Because slavery can only exsit through force and in captialism force and fraud do not exsit

I cite NK

Capitalism: "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market" - Merriam Webster

I see nothing that forbids slavery in that definition,.

And I see nothing that forbids force or fraud, unless you want to explain how that is so?

[Doichlogs]

How so? True artists do not create for the sake of money, they create for the sake of expressing themselves and to present a small iota of beauty in an otherwise ugly and brutal existance. True scientists and philosophers likewise wish to learn not out of a drive for material wealth, but simply for the sake of learning itself.

Kay, but they depend on others for funding their science. "True scientists" depend on others to develop their ideas to become profitable enough to support them. "True artists" have to eat. Whether in a collectivist system or a Capitalist system, those who reject the material world still depend on it.