Collectivised Ideologys (Facism,Socialism and Communism)

[Robustian]

Power is the evil, and power exists in all governments. Individualism can be just as easily crushed by a capitalist society as a communist one. Now, see past the capitalist rhetoric you're so mindlessly spouting, and enlighten yourself.

You are so wrong, it is pathetic. Communism is the definition of crushing individualism.

Capitalism does not have anything against individualism. In fact, it prospers by individualism, because capitalism, is, by definition, the defense of the individual over the collective.

[History land]

Because wealth must be created by work by honesty. Fraud and Theif eliminate the abllity to work and to think and to be honest. Those crimes are not rational or logical to a moral society.

Must? I can list a hundred ways to create wealth through dishonest means.

Wealth created through dishonest means is the way of a looter for a human who refuse to use his mind and abllity to help himslef.

[New Kereptica]

Have you ever picked up a philosophy? Ever held one in your hand? Philosophy is a field of ideas, the same with science and art. All can have some connections to the physical world, such as scientific experiments or paintings, but in essence, they are thought alone.

Which have to do with the materalistic world we live in

But not physical themselves, or at all tied to commerce.

Nonsense. Everything is tied to commerce. Could those ideas exist at all without any commerce? No, because those who held the ideas would all be dead.[/quote]

The exchange of goods and services is not essential to survival. Early hunter-gatherer societies managed quite well without it.

[History land]

Corporations do not exploiate people. people who work for corporations have done it voluntarly and for mutual benifit. Factory work is individualistic because you have a job to do in the factory which is your responsiblity. You have a job to do in a cubical which is your responsblity.

Plus nobody can determin the life a person will live except the individual in that life. Plus in a corporation or in a factory you are trading labor for wages.

Humans who work are traders in all jobs they trade. Money for objects Labor for Money Humans who work are traders

Have you ever heard of slavery?

Slavery is force. Slaves work without be paid for thier labor. In captialism they trade work for wages fairly and honstley

[Capitalistliberals]

I have an interesting question for you. Have you ever thought there might be more to life than simply accumulating wealth? Art, philosophy, science, all of these things should trump the need for material goods and wealth under any circumstance.

capitalism is not the mutually exclusive with these. it depends on your values personally. if i per se want more money than i will work harder to become richer, but if i want to explore the arts all you have to do is put a less emphasis on your accumulation of wealth so that you can paint or sing or draw or whatever. for instance i read Foucaut( a french philosopher ) in my spare time but im also an economics major who adheres strongly to hayek and mises(strong libertarian capitalists) when i finish my major i want a phd in econ after word is intend to teach at a university. that job doesnt make a huge amount the reason i want that job is to express my own ideas and so i can write.

[Doichlogs]

The exchange of goods and services is not essential to survival. Early hunter-gatherer societies managed quite well without it.

Oh okay well you go back to hunting and gathering and philosophizing. I'll continue to live in the 21st century.

[New Kereptica]

Because wealth must be created by work by honesty. Fraud and Theif eliminate the abllity to work and to think and to be honest. Those crimes are not rational or logical to a moral society.

Must? I can list a hundred ways to create wealth through dishonest means.

Wealth created through dishonest means is the way of a looter for a human who refuse to use his mind and abllity to help himslef.

The thief is using his mind and ability to help himself at the detriment of others.

[Samatolian City-States]

Power is the evil, and power exists in all governments. Individualism can be just as easily crushed by a capitalist society as a communist one. Now, see past the capitalist rhetoric you're so mindlessly spouting, and enlighten yourself.

You are so wrong, it is pathetic. Communism is the definition of crushing individualism.

Capitalism does not have anything against individualism. In fact, it prospers by individualism, because capitalism, is, by definition, the defense of the individual over the collective.

Yes. A few individuals control everything, and the masses get fucked over. Look at our recent mortgage crisis. How many lost their homes because the interest rates decided to skyrocket?

[New Kereptica]

Corporations do not exploiate people. people who work for corporations have done it voluntarly and for mutual benifit. Factory work is individualistic because you have a job to do in the factory which is your responsiblity. You have a job to do in a cubical which is your responsblity.

Plus nobody can determin the life a person will live except the individual in that life. Plus in a corporation or in a factory you are trading labor for wages.

Humans who work are traders in all jobs they trade. Money for objects Labor for Money Humans who work are traders

Have you ever heard of slavery?

Slavery is force. Slaves work without be paid for thier labor. In captialism they trade work for wages fairly and honstley

Are you saying that slavery has never existed under a capitalist system.

[History land]

The thief is using his mind and ability to help himself at the detriment of others.

That`s where the contradiction lay. The theif`s only way to get money withouth thinking and using his abllity is through his gun.

Guns supress freedom and individualism he is not using his mind he is only using his gun to get what he wants witouth earning it through honest work.

You can not be moral if you infringe on the rights of others.

[Avenio]

But Science Philosophy and Art are all material things

No, they're abstractions. Art, Science and Philosophy can be created by anyone, anywhere, whether they're a CEO or a ditch digger, and whether they are in an artist's studio or simply arranging pebbles in the dirt. These things are not tied to the world of economics, no matter what the capitalists try to make everyone believe with the barbaric system of patents and copyrights.

Art is creaded by materials,Science is created by materials, Philosophy is associated with living on earth which is tied to the material goods.

Art can be anything with a message, a belief attached to it, it can be a collection of plastic bags arranged in a pattern, or a Brahms concerto, or charcoal paintings of animals on a cave.One doesn't need an easel and canvas to create, he simply needs the raw creativity and drive that humanity is endowed with.

Science is, by definition, an idea. Anyone, anywhere can develop an idea, it only takes the skill and ingenuity to develop it. Your precious industries were not created by businessmen but by peasant farmers, who had an idea of how do accomplish a task faster and more efficiently.
Albert Einstein, the brilliant physicist, was a simple patent clerk when he wrote his theories on General Relativity. He did not have the wealth of industry behind him, but simply the need to investigate the universe around him and learn as much as possible about its workings.

Philosophy is tied to our perception of the world around us, which is immaterial and ethereal. Everyone, no matter what their status or collection of material posessions has a personal philosophy about life, which is completely unrelated to our status. A starving beggar on the street is just as entitled to a philosophy as a multimillionaire.

[History land]

Power is the evil, and power exists in all governments. Individualism can be just as easily crushed by a capitalist society as a communist one. Now, see past the capitalist rhetoric you're so mindlessly spouting, and enlighten yourself.

You are so wrong, it is pathetic. Communism is the definition of crushing individualism.

Capitalism does not have anything against individualism. In fact, it prospers by individualism, because capitalism, is, by definition, the defense of the individual over the collective.

Yes. A few individuals control everything, and the masses get fucked over. Look at our recent mortgage crisis. How many lost their homes because the interest rates decided to skyrocket?

The Federal Reserve was the problem in that crisis

[Capitalistliberals]

The thief is using his mind and ability to help himself at the detriment of others.

capitalism is an economic structure not a governmental one. as such a government adhering to capatilist principles would still punish the thief. harming an others autonomy and ability to make there living would violate free trade of resources in a capitalist system as would slavery btw

[Barzan]

Who is to say rampant individualism is a good thing? How does one live in a civilisation if there is only individualism? Such a world would be, to quote Hobbes, "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short." Any ideologue is dangerous, I like pragmatism. It's rather foolish to try and shape the world according to the way you think it should work, as opposed to how it does work. Otherwise, you're supposed ideologies and political beliefs are religions. And I see both communism as practised in the former Soviet Bloc and Asia, as well as the supposed "capitalists" who have no concept of economics or of modern political theory, as being religious in nature. Both tend to "believe" in something and are impervious to empirical evidence as well as to reason.

[History land]

Are you saying that slavery has never existed under a capitalist system.

It has not and never will

[New Kereptica]

The thief is using his mind and ability to help himself at the detriment of others.

That`s where the contradiction lay. The theif`s only way to get money withouth thinking and using his abllity is through his gun.

Guns supress freedom and individualism he is not using his mind he is only using his gun to get what he wants witouth earning it through honest work.

You can not be moral if you infringe on the rights of others.

Did Madoff put a gun to his investor's heads? No. He worked out a very complex Ponzi scheme that extracted billions with no violence whatsoever. He however, is no less a thief than a common, pistol-armed, grocery store robber.

[Doichlogs]

No, they're abstractions. Art, Science and Philosophy can be created by anyone, anywhere, whether they're a CEO or a ditch digger, and whether they are in an artist's studio or simply arranging pebbles in the dirt. These things are not tied to the world of economics, no matter what the capitalists try to make everyone believe with the barbaric system of patents and copyrights.

Art can be anything with a message, a belief attached to it, it can be a collection of plastic bags arranged in a pattern, or a Brahms concerto, or charcoal paintings of animals on a cave.One doesn't need an easel and canvas to create, he simply needs the raw creativity and drive that humanity is endowed with.

Science is, by definition, an idea. Anyone, anywhere can develop an idea, it only takes the skill and ingenuity to develop it. Your precious industries were not created by businessmen but by peasant farmers, who had an idea of how do accomplish a task faster and more efficiently.
Albert Einstein, the brilliant physicist, was a simple patent clerk when he wrote his theories on General Relativity. He did not have the wealth of industry behind him, but simply the need to investigate the universe around him and learn as much as possible about its workings.

Philosophy is tied to our perception of the world around us, which is immaterial and ethereal. Everyone, no matter what their status or collection of material posessions has a personal philosophy about life, which is completely unrelated to our status. A starving beggar on the street is just as entitled to a philosophy as a multimillionaire.

Who says you have to have an industry behind you to better your life? None of the things you mention have a collective functioning behind them... they have their own individual motivations.

[History land]

The thief is using his mind and ability to help himself at the detriment of others.

That`s where the contradiction lay. The theif`s only way to get money withouth thinking and using his abllity is through his gun.

Guns supress freedom and individualism he is not using his mind he is only using his gun to get what he wants witouth earning it through honest work.

You can not be moral if you infringe on the rights of others.

Did Madoff put a gun to his investor's heads? No. He worked out a very complex Ponzi scheme that extracted billions with no violence whatsoever. He however, is no less a thief than a common, pistol-armed, grocery store robber.

No but he used the other way looters use to get money Fraud. Force and Fraud are the ideas of the looters and no Moral person would use them

[New Kereptica]

Are you saying that slavery has never existed under a capitalist system.

It has not and never will

Well, you've just destroyed you're position. Do you realize how wrong you are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery. Read this. All of it.

[Samatolian City-States]

The Federal Reserve was the problem in that crisis

No, the problem was the introduction of "Adjustable" rate mortgages, an obvious scam. Human greed at it's finest.

[Avenio]

No, they're abstractions. Art, Science and Philosophy can be created by anyone, anywhere, whether they're a CEO or a ditch digger, and whether they are in an artist's studio or simply arranging pebbles in the dirt. These things are not tied to the world of economics, no matter what the capitalists try to make everyone believe with the barbaric system of patents and copyrights.

Art can be anything with a message, a belief attached to it, it can be a collection of plastic bags arranged in a pattern, or a Brahms concerto, or charcoal paintings of animals on a cave.One doesn't need an easel and canvas to create, he simply needs the raw creativity and drive that humanity is endowed with.

Science is, by definition, an idea. Anyone, anywhere can develop an idea, it only takes the skill and ingenuity to develop it. Your precious industries were not created by businessmen but by peasant farmers, who had an idea of how do accomplish a task faster and more efficiently.
Albert Einstein, the brilliant physicist, was a simple patent clerk when he wrote his theories on General Relativity. He did not have the wealth of industry behind him, but simply the need to investigate the universe around him and learn as much as possible about its workings.

Philosophy is tied to our perception of the world around us, which is immaterial and ethereal. Everyone, no matter what their status or collection of material posessions has a personal philosophy about life, which is completely unrelated to our status. A starving beggar on the street is just as entitled to a philosophy as a multimillionaire.

Who says you have to have an industry behind you to better your life? None of the things you mention have a collective functioning behind them... they have their own individual motivations.

I wasn't arguing about collectivity. History Land argued that art, philosophy and science were tied to material items, and I presented my argument against it.

[Robustian]

Damn it, you're just supporting the corporations' exploitation of the people. How individualistic is factory work? Or sitting in a cubicle all day? Or being one in a hundred thousand suit monkeys, plotting and planning the fate of your small groups of pathetic underlings? Boy, when you grow to be older, you will understand the realities of the world you inhabit. Naivete will not save you.

Now, don't take me the wrong way. A Collectivist government only takes the same problem out of the hands of the corporations and into the hands of the government. You'll still slave away, and get nothing for it.

You should read this. http://www.census.gov/epcd/www/smallbus.html

Your fiction about how capitalism is all about giant corporations is pretty much nonsense. The VAST majority of businesses are small, and employ majority of employees. There are about 17 million one man or partnership businesses, that don't even have employees.

For many decades, the growth of employment in the US has basically been due to small business. As far as the country goes, as far as the number of people who earn or obtain a living, the 'big corporations' are mostly irrelevant.

[New Kereptica]

No but he used the other way looters use to get money Fraud. Force and Fraud are the ideas of the looters and no Moral person would use them

Who's saying anything about morality? Look at the world today. Not many people are that moral.

[Capitalistliberals]

The Federal Reserve was the problem in that crisis

correct as it is in every recession. read mises everyone just google the name hayek works as well. the federal reserve creates a few problems first it has absolute authority over a fiat money supply and thus can cause massive inflation and deflation which can freeze credit markets because of lack of money or devalue currency to the point where there isnt a point in holding it. next it decides the amount that banks have to hold in reserve which when lowered multiplys the money system and the opposite when it is raised further changing the reserve requirment creates an enormous amount of strain on banks because it makes it difficult for them to decide on how much must be held because the rate could be changed. furthermore the fed can issue more and more money when the gov. needs it making balancing the budget irrelevant of the federal level leading to massive spending followed by massive inflation. finally the fed can stimulate false economic booms via raising the money supply which lead to false strength and fake growth that inevitably leads to recessions and depressions

[Barzan]

Are you saying that slavery has never existed under a capitalist system.

It has not and never will

I see. Those blacks who lived in the southern US back in the 19th century were "trading" their labour for the "right to live" or some nonsense, right? It was an equitable arrangement, covered by a contract and such, right? Or is it only in your perfect imaginary world that we're discussing here?
Let me guess, for every example someone givs that proves your understanding of history to be deeply flawed, you will retort with a comment along the lines of "that wasn't actually capitalism". Sounds like the same excuse that communist sympathisers (with regards to the failed Leninist-style Soviet Bloc regimes) use for their radical ideologies.

I'll modify your post title and say that any ideology is bad when it is treated as an absolute truth. That's when it turns into a religion.