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People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

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Mad hatters in jeans
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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:22 am

HUZZAH! for athiests! Then again if they're so smart they would be able to convince the believers that believing in a God is not a good idea...
Huzzah for intelligence? Interesting that the educated elites hold intelligence as important, yet they don't really consider what intelligence is, why if it exists surely it must be a kind creature? maybe intelligence doesn't exist at all?

huzzah for elitism? that's odd that's just another word for a social group.

huzzah for football fans...?

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Kynchile
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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Kynchile » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:25 am

There are proportionately as many atheistic truck drivers as there are atheistic scientists

Richard Bube

I'm very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world is very deficient. It gives a lot of factual information, puts all our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight, knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.

Erwin Schrodinger

I shall reexamine the suppositions underlying our belief in science and propose to show that they are more extensive than is usually thought. They will appear to coextend with the entire spiritual foundations of man and to go to the very root of his social existence. Hence I will urge our belief in science should be regarded as a token of much wider convictions.

Michael Polanyi

Admit the existence of a personal God and the possibility of miracles follows at once. If the laws of nature are carried out in accordance with his will, he who willed them may will their suspension….

George Stokes


Do not be afraid to be free thinkers. If you think strongly enough, you will be forced by science to the belief in God.

William Thomson

Why Are There So Few Atheists Among Physicists?

In fact, if one considers the possible constants and laws that could have emerged, the odds against a universe that produced life like ours are immense

Stephen Hawking

The present arrangement of matter indicates a very special choice of initial conditions.

Paul Davies

A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.

Fred Hoyle

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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Treznor » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:39 am

NERVUN wrote:
Treznor wrote:I understand the objection to bringing up Isaac Newton's religious devotion, because not being religious (or at least Deist) was a quick way to a long fall with a short rope. Subscribing to a religious organization was also the best way to make connections, particularly among the Masons.

Given the cultural attitudes of the time, you'll find few prominent atheists stepping forward. Not necessarily because they were convinced of the rational arguments for gods, but because society was particularly unforgiving of assumptions that didn't begin with gods.

Given that at the time of Newton you have Deism going on...

It's up to you guys to actually show through his writings that Newton WASN'T a theist. Saying that, "well of course he was because he HAD to be, but if he was alive now" is nothing but speculation. Given the amount of time he spent in study of the Bible and his writtings, I think it is safe to say that he truely belived.

I'm not saying that Newton wasn't a theist. I'm saying it makes sense given the cultural norms of the time. Atheists weren't just reviled, they were often lynched, and the justice system of the time deemed the lynchings perfectly legal. It's only been in recent times that we've started imposing penalties on people for physically assaulting atheists, which has given us a window of opportunity for challenging theistic thinking.

The study in the OP doesn't state that higher intelligence automatically invalidates the possibility of belief in gods, only that higher intelligence makes it statistically less likely for theistic thinking to hold sway.

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Free Soviets
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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Free Soviets » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:51 am

Kynchile wrote:Why Are There So Few Atheists Among Physicists?

i'll just leave this here:

"Religion among Academic Scientists: Distinctions, Disciplines, and Demographics", Ecklund and Scheitle, Social Problems, Vol. 54, Issue 2, pp. 289–307
Image

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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Duckside » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:59 am

Free Soviets wrote:
Kynchile wrote:Why Are There So Few Atheists Among Physicists?

i'll just leave this here:

"Religion among Academic Scientists: Distinctions, Disciplines, and Demographics", Ecklund and Scheitle, Social Problems, Vol. 54, Issue 2, pp. 289–307
Image

thank you, thank you, i was about to die with the trillions of unproven facts here.
what is "Macs" spelt backwards?
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Maharlika Islands wrote:God's existence can never be proved or disapproved,


Bull. If a bearded white man came down from the sky and started performing feats that violated the laws of physics and he knew the exact future, what exactly would you call him?


An alien.

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Duckside
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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Duckside » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:03 am

Why Are There So Few Atheists Among Physicists?

In fact, if one considers the possible constants and laws that could have emerged, the odds against a universe that produced life like ours are immense

Stephen Hawking
so? it does not prove that he believes in god. it just proves that there is a very tiny chance of life emerging in the universe.
The present arrangement of matter indicates a very special choice of initial conditions.

Paul Davies
its called chance, that is what he means.
A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.

Fred Hoyle
he only said a common sense interpretation, which is not reliable. a Logical interpretation differs from a common sense opinion, he did not state his logical interpretation, he was merely stating facts.
what is "Macs" spelt backwards?
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Maharlika Islands wrote:God's existence can never be proved or disapproved,


Bull. If a bearded white man came down from the sky and started performing feats that violated the laws of physics and he knew the exact future, what exactly would you call him?


An alien.

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Duckside
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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Duckside » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:05 am

Lucky Bicycle Works wrote:
Duckside wrote:*COUGH* *COUGH* read my damned post.


Do you mean the one which calls me a fool twice in the first sentence?

I decline.

Read mine.

I have read every post in this thread >.<
Fine. I apologise. Here.
you cant break the law of thermodynamics (and neither can god proving that he is not omnipotent and proving yet again that he does not exist, besides, god must be a very orderly being to have created order in the first place, which breaks the law again >.<).
on evolution, what you see is just the tip of the iceberg.
imagine the precursor to the giraffe. it would have a short neck, and need to "evolve" to get a longer neck, agree? during the process of millions of years, genetic defects cause millions of changes, most of them are bad(up entropy), causing shorter necks, poorer eyesight, etc. however, some grow longer necks which let them survive and produce more offspring than the shorter necked generation. Hence giraffes of what we know are now here.
Evolution is not a "SNAP" your finger "TA-DA!" insta-results, kind of thing. it is a messy(a.k.a entropic) process leaving masses of failed mutations in the process.
what is "Macs" spelt backwards?
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Maharlika Islands wrote:God's existence can never be proved or disapproved,


Bull. If a bearded white man came down from the sky and started performing feats that violated the laws of physics and he knew the exact future, what exactly would you call him?


An alien.

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Cybach
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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Cybach » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:07 am

Which is to say, a dissident in the (semi)theocratic society of his day.
He was also an alchemist, and believed some truly crazy stuff which almost no-one believes today.


Quite. He was more fanatically religious than most of the people in his day. Which says something. But it apparently did not inhibit his ability to be a successful scientist. Although perhaps he could by the archtype of a mad scientist if you will.



Lemaître was a professor at a Catholic university. Did he have any choice?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

He was an ordained priest? He spent his youth studying maths and physics. Later choosing to become a priest after WW1. So yes, he was a grown adult. He was a very educated young man. Then later he went to Cambridge (NOT a Catholic university) to study. He became a priest. Joining the Jesuit order, which is the order dedicated to running schools, education and devote itself to learning (i.e mathematics/physics/etc..). Later becoming a professor.

So, where was his lack of choice there?


Mendel likewise depended for his livelihood on the abbey which supported his studies.

Another example of a scientist who pursued his true love, science, and compromised his politics and ideological stance for his speciality. As so many scientists do today! Give me this day my daily funding, and let me get on with my research.



Ehm. I think right now you're simply trying to twist history and historical figures to your own agenda. Gregor Mendel came from a well-off family, which owned a large farm. He attended private schools. Attending the Philosophical Institute in Olomouc. There due to his keen interest in God and the concept of the almighty, on advice of his physics teacher Friedrich Franz. He entered the Augustinian Abbey of St Thomas in Brno.

If all he wanted was simply to study genetics and have the time and resources. Why did he become a monk, stating vows of poverty and living a rustic life? When he could have lived on a well-off farm. Had much more resources available to him from his inheritance. But instead goes to become a monk and impoverish himself? As well as making sure he would have less time to follow his theories of genetics, than if he simply would have stayed home at his family's homestead?

Sounds retarded and nonsensical. The man was deeply religious. He believed that his findings in genetics were bringing us humans a step closer to God, and showed us in greater detail the of the glory that is God and his creations. His views, not mine. Yet he was still a competent scientist, even though religious. My original point.



Source please. Really, that's a wild claim. Who considers him so? And why?

That's nice. Source please.


In addition to his native German, Benedict XVI fluently speaks Italian, French, English, Spanish, Latin, and also has a knowledge of Portuguese. He can read Ancient Greek and biblical Hebrew. He has stated that his first foreign language is French. He is a member of a large number of academies, such as the French Académie des sciences morales et politiques. He plays the piano and has a preference for Mozart and Bach.

He pops up on the most intelligent list of a lot of organizations. The first one; TED—the Technology, Entertainment and Design conference that draws a top-notch crowd of techies, media and design people every year;

http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/Nu ... 0_sma.html
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms. ... ry_id=3249


Books he has written;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bo ... nedict_XVI


No, it's not. Or rather, the element of choice varies greatly depending on the social environment of who chooses. In some cases, in some places, it is career suicide to have the wrong, or to have no, religion. In other places, the choice is more free.

And not one of us is free to choose our religion as we are free to choose which TV channel to watch, with the remote in hand and no other watching. Our religion, as with all our other beliefs or belief systems, makes us what we are now. We are not free as the TV surfer is, we are not absolutely free to choose our own religion. We are not free to unbecome what we already are!

Believe me. I'm an atheist, tending towards gnostic. The idea of becoming a Theist requires that I junk many of my habits of thought, renounce much of my experience. It's not in any way a Free Choice.



By that logic almost no big decisions in life are run by free choice. In the end it is only yourself who can decide what you want to be. I myself for example am best stated to be agnostic, or slanted towards atheist. However I am culturally Catholic. For me Catholicism, even if I don't believe in it's tenants forms a part of my identity. Since it's a direct link I share with all my ancestors and family. Hence I occasionally enjoy going to Church with family, as well as give my dues on religious holidays. I would feel that there would be something missing in my life, without having some basic observances of Catholicism in my life, even if I don't actively practice it. That some people can go right on living fine and dandy without any of that is a given. However everyone is different, I respect their choices provided they respect mine.



There is lots wrong in that, but some kernel of truth too.


It's my opinion. You are free to disagree with it.

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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Straughn » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:30 am

Spectorland wrote:Well....

1. Logic (St. Thomas Aquinas would be proud)
This is a really, really hard-bitten and tenuous argument here. I think it'd be painful for you to try to prove it, really, but no better place than here to try, no?

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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby CanuckHeaven » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:39 pm

People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God are more likely to commit suicide.

Only the bright commit suicide

His startling theory is that suicide can be positively correlated with intelligence — in other words, the smarter people are, the more likely they are to kill themselves.

Voracek’s starting point is the fact that suicide is a growing problem in the Western world: someone commits suicide in America every 15 minutes, and the World Health Organisation claims that suicide accounts for at least 2 per cent of Western deaths. The rate of suicide in parts of Sweden has risen by 250 per cent in the past 40 years.

Most sociologists have argued that this is because of the so-called anomie of modern Western life — that something in urbanised, industrialised society alienates us from friends, faith and family, the mainstays of human happiness.

Ahhh....the dirty "f" word. :shock:
Last edited by CanuckHeaven on Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Hammurab » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:55 pm

CanuckHeaven wrote:People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God are more likely to commit suicide.

Only the bright commit suicide

His startling theory is that suicide can be positively correlated with intelligence — in other words, the smarter people are, the more likely they are to kill themselves.

Voracek’s starting point is the fact that suicide is a growing problem in the Western world: someone commits suicide in America every 15 minutes, and the World Health Organisation claims that suicide accounts for at least 2 per cent of Western deaths. The rate of suicide in parts of Sweden has risen by 250 per cent in the past 40 years.

Most sociologists have argued that this is because of the so-called anomie of modern Western life — that something in urbanised, industrialised society alienates us from friends, faith and family, the mainstays of human happiness.

Ahhh....the dirty "f" word. :shock:


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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Tunizcha » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:06 am

Hammurab wrote:
CanuckHeaven wrote:People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God are more likely to commit suicide.

Only the bright commit suicide

His startling theory is that suicide can be positively correlated with intelligence — in other words, the smarter people are, the more likely they are to kill themselves.

Voracek’s starting point is the fact that suicide is a growing problem in the Western world: someone commits suicide in America every 15 minutes, and the World Health Organisation claims that suicide accounts for at least 2 per cent of Western deaths. The rate of suicide in parts of Sweden has risen by 250 per cent in the past 40 years.

Most sociologists have argued that this is because of the so-called anomie of modern Western life — that something in urbanised, industrialised society alienates us from friends, faith and family, the mainstays of human happiness.

Ahhh....the dirty "f" word. :shock:


Short crutches don't work for tall people.

Oh, clap clap clap. Very good metaphor.
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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Buffett and Colbert » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:30 am

CanuckHeaven wrote:People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God are more likely to commit suicide.

Only the bright commit suicide

His startling theory is that suicide can be positively correlated with intelligence — in other words, the smarter people are, the more likely they are to kill themselves.

Voracek’s starting point is the fact that suicide is a growing problem in the Western world: someone commits suicide in America every 15 minutes, and the World Health Organisation claims that suicide accounts for at least 2 per cent of Western deaths. The rate of suicide in parts of Sweden has risen by 250 per cent in the past 40 years.

Most sociologists have argued that this is because of the so-called anomie of modern Western life — that something in urbanised, industrialised society alienates us from friends, faith and family, the mainstays of human happiness.

Ahhh....the dirty "f" word. :shock:


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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby New Genoa » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:53 am

For people talking about all these physicists being believers, I beg you to look up Richard Dawkins bit on Einsteinian religion first.
Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Rhodmhire » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:08 am

I'm not even going to bother making a big effort, and just say I personally think IQs are horrid ways to judge intellect. Hell, the very term "intellect" isn't even set in stone for many people.

The scale, properly speaking, does not permit the measure of intelligence, because intellectual qualities are not superposable, and therefore cannot be measured as linear surfaces are measured.

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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Rhodmhire » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:12 am

CanuckHeaven wrote:People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God are more likely to commit suicide aren't always smarter than those with lower IQs.


Again, I don't personally believe IQs are a good way to judge intellect, therefore not a good way to judge religious belief, suicide rates, etc.
Last edited by Rhodmhire on Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Tunizcha » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:52 am

Rhodmhire wrote:
CanuckHeaven wrote:People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God are more likely to commit suicide aren't always smarter than those with lower IQs.


Again, I don't personally believe IQs are a good way to judge intellect, therefore not a good way to judge religious belief, suicide rates, etc.

But they are a good way to measure if you believe in Hypnotoad or not.
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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Getsuei » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:02 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Spectorland wrote:
Quantum fluctuations in vacuum aren't exactly speculation. They are an integral part of the well-tested standard model.


Would you please be so kind as to send me some links about the topic of quantum fluctuations in vacuum (besides wikipedia of course)? It has piqued my interest. I would much rather have someone knowledgeable about the subject recommend me the sources, than me going around looking for it and blindingly trusting that what I find is good. I know it's silly of me, but... pretty please? :lol:

PS: I haven't gotten to fully reading the whole thread yet. So if you have at some point posted some links in this thread, please forgive me for asking then. :blush:

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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Getsuei » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:29 pm

Drackmaria wrote:In a previous post i claimed that religion did damage to society here is a list to make it simple

1: Preventing the teaching of safe sex practices
2: Forcing women with unwanted pregnacies to keep them
3: Not allowing terminal patients in great pain to end their suffering
4: Obstructing research into embyrionic stem cells that could save thousands of lives
5: Encouraging skeptism into climate change leading to irreprible damage to the enviroment

These are just a few of the less extreme damages to society religion is responisble for
I wont even go into the murders, crusades, holy wars and inquisitions over history
Religion damages society
Deny it if you can


You are right in the aspect that for religious reasons people have done horrible things and followed destructive trends. But I wish to point out a few things to expand on this a little bit more, and make it a little bit more objective. "Religion" itself, as a set of ideas and believes, is not the perpetrator, but the "Church", the organized group of people institutionalizing and manipulating religion, to be the guilty one. Simply put, it's not the idea, but the people trying to follow said idea in what they believe is the "right way" to be the culprit. An example of this are government ideologies. The ideas, by itself, are really not bad. But when people put them on actual practice, due to human error and interpretation, the results don't always end up as good as the ideology seemed to indicate.

At the true heart of Christianity there lies a call to:
*love the world,
*accept people with open arms no matter the differences,
*respect everyone equally,
*forgive others as we wish to be forgiven,
*be honest and have an open heart,
*always lend a helping hand (especially to those less fortunate),
*be humble,
*understand that pain and suffering are not to be feared or avoided, but rather, welcomed as life's trials that helps us become stronger individuals and have a further understanding of the world (what doesn't destroy you, makes you stronger),
*always seek to do your best,
*and apologize for our wrong-doings.

This really doesn't seem like the sort of religion that would actively seek destruction, persecution, ignorance, and cruelty. However, this is what the CORRUPT organized people on a power trip claiming to have authority on that religion did.

I'm not trying to justify the horrible things the Church did and still does. What I'm trying to say is that religion itself isn't some sort of horrible social disease that should be eradicated because of the actions committed by corrupted institutions.

On to the original subject of this thread, I believe that religion or any set of spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof) is a completely personal choice. I believe that people's personal believes on spirituality don't have to conflict in any manner with their pursuit of intellectual knowledge. And yes, I am aware that mere statistics don't necessarily imply that the observed trends are involved in each other as cause-and-effect. They're just correlation. However, the intentions behind that study don't seem to be innocent. Or it could just be my paranoia talking. I do, to my dismay, accept that a lot of those that share the same spiritual believes that I have don't seem to be up to date with various scientific breakthroughs and knowledge. :(

Either way, I hope no one takes this the wrong way.... >.> ...
or I can just say "IMO" and get away with it. .... j/k, I'll excuse myself in advance if someone is offended by this. ;)

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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby La Habana » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:37 pm

When topics like this come up, I am always reminded of a quote by Friedrich Nietzsche:

"Life is too short for us to spend some of that time contemplating otherworldly beings!"

:p
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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Holy Paradise » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:46 pm

Getsuei wrote: -snip-


^This
Moderate conservative, Roman Catholic

yep

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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Exilia and Colonies » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:05 pm

CanuckHeaven wrote:People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God are more likely to commit suicide.

Only the bright commit suicide

His startling theory is that suicide can be positively correlated with intelligence — in other words, the smarter people are, the more likely they are to kill themselves.

Voracek’s starting point is the fact that suicide is a growing problem in the Western world: someone commits suicide in America every 15 minutes, and the World Health Organisation claims that suicide accounts for at least 2 per cent of Western deaths. The rate of suicide in parts of Sweden has risen by 250 per cent in the past 40 years.

Most sociologists have argued that this is because of the so-called anomie of modern Western life — that something in urbanised, industrialised society alienates us from friends, faith and family, the mainstays of human happiness.

Ahhh....the dirty "f" word. :shock:


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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Rhodmhire » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:10 pm

Tunizcha wrote:
Rhodmhire wrote:
CanuckHeaven wrote:People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God are more likely to commit suicide aren't always smarter than those with lower IQs.


Again, I don't personally believe IQs are a good way to judge intellect, therefore not a good way to judge religious belief, suicide rates, etc.

But they are a good way to measure if you believe in Hypnotoad or not.


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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Bitchkitten » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:59 pm

Read it in "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Very few scientistsbelieve in any sort of diety.

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Intangelon
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Re: People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God

Postby Intangelon » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:04 pm

Bitchkitten wrote:Read it in "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Very few scientistsbelieve in any sort of diety.

B-B, B-B, B-B, B-BEE KAAAAAY!

Glad to see you, baby!

Also, yeah, good book!
+11,569 posts from Jolt/OMAC
Oh beautiful for pilgrim feet / Whose stern, impassioned stress / A thoroughfare for freedom beat / Across the wilderness!
America! America! / God mend thine ev’ry flaw; / Confirm thy soul in self-control / Thy liberty in law....

Lunatic Goofballs: The problem is that the invisible men in the sky don't tell you how to live your life.
Their fan clubs do.

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