Another American Revolution?

[Brewdomia]

This is bullshit, we are not going to have an American Revolution because of conservatives who are obsessed about Obama being elected and disagreeing with every goddamn plan he throws out there. There will not be any kind of revolution or crap in this country, because people are mad about socialism. These protesters at the town halls have no idea what socialism is, they just spread the crap the GOP and right wing radio hosts tell them. Some say get your government hands of their medicare? Some are incredibly ignorant, not all, but some.

[Jaigas]

Why did you true conservatives let the neocons hijack the Republican party? You should have taken a stand the way all those special interest groups did and voted for different candidates in the primaries.

What the hell, man? You think that's any kind of point at all? No one just rolled over and surrendered to these clowns. No one knew better. It's the same as how so many old people are just now waking up and realizing that the Democrat party isn't theirs anymore.

I (who make that argument a lot) am aware that it's a flawed argument. It's meant to point out the failures of democracy to those who blindly continue to insist that it's the best system out there. Instead, I'd make the argument that government officials are supposed to do whatever they think is best because they, and not the mob and the demagogues who sway its sentiment, know what's best for the nation and the people as a whole.

Flawed argument there. Just being in a position of power does NOT, in the mind of any reasonable person, equate to knowing what's best for the country and its people. I don't think I need to explain this further. Feel free to alter your wording if you think the point is salvageable, and I'll simply dismiss this bit of nonsense.

The thing is, people often seem to misuse the term "tyranny". Tyranny is entirely subjective; a government is not tyrannical unless people believe it is. Hence the existence of the Constitution, so that people will not consider the US Government tyrannical and attempt to overthrow it. Moreover, all of the checks on the government's power are related to its federalist system, independent of the people -- hence why the executive cannot create legislation, the legislative cannot carry out the laws it passes, et cetera. Apart from these, in practice, there are no checks on the power of the state.

My point was not about tyranny or its definition, nor powers granted to or claimed by the state. Just about the social character of the country's populace. Please respond directly instead of going on tangents.

[Farnhamia]

You are a tool, Saint Clair Island. I told you the values of true Conservatism and you generalized all Conservatives as this new generation of neo-cons.

And yet "true Conservatives" seem to be perfectly happy to use the neo-cons as their shock troops when it suits them. How is it, Frasas, that the neo-cons took control of the GOP more or less in the early 90s,and the "true Conservatives" have not tried to throw them out? Indeed, it would appear that "true Conservatives" have themselves been ejected from the Grand Old Party.

90s nothing. Neocons like Rumsfeld and Kissinger and Cheney got started under Nixon. The neocons have been stealing the Republican party away from "true conservatives" for forty years. That's why it's so hard to take all the No True Conservative arguments seriously; this trend has been going on for nearly half a century, and only now are they voicing any concerns about it.

That makes it even worse. I see Frasas getting beat up in the thread and saying, "No, that's not me, I'm not a neo-con!" I call cop-out.

[Treznor]

And yet "true Conservatives" seem to be perfectly happy to use the neo-cons as their shock troops when it suits them. How is it, Frasas, that the neo-cons took control of the GOP more or less in the early 90s,and the "true Conservatives" have not tried to throw them out? Indeed, it would appear that "true Conservatives" have themselves been ejected from the Grand Old Party.

90s? Earlier than that. They've been in the highest ranks of the GOP since the Nixon years. You do know where else Rumsfeld and Cheney served, right? The Nixon administration, followed by the Reagan administration and George H. W. Bush.

The idealogy did not emerge until the mid-90's by those who were pushing for an invasion of Iraq.

Incorrect. Cheney advised Bush Sr. against an invasion of Iraq after Gulf War I because they knew they'd get bogged down in sectarian violence. Sure enough, that's what happened when Bush Jr. went in anyway. But Cheney and Rumsfield were among the troop who originated the concept that nothing is illegal so long as the President does it (or authorizes it) which is the foundation of the violations of so many Amendments that conservatives ignored over the last eight years.

Don't tell me the neocons don't represent conservatives. They've been supporting and encouraging them for forty years.

[Riveara]

ll stacking up... one after another. It began with states rights and sovereignty movements, Montana passing gun laws that fly in the face of the federal government, angry Tea Party protesters unhappy about our insane tax system, Town hall meetings with pissed off constituents, many of which have been threatened or been visited with threats in the middle of the night:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIP7hYqeegQ

I'm seeing more and more Gadsden flags then I have at any point in my life. The quiet Americans are coming out of the woodwork and speaking up. I can't say I've ever seen the American people this pissed off since I have been alive in my short time here on Earth. History has shown multiple times that you can only push a people so far before one of two things happen: The people revolt, or the government collapses. I really think in the case of Mr. Sola, it's only going to take the federal gestapo (I'm not talking regular rank and file LEO's here) to (*)(*)(*)(*) off the wrong person with a 2am visit... and we'll have another Waco or Ruby Ride on our hands... then the whole deck of cards will come falling down.

Their will never be an armed revolution in the USA because we are to pussy to actually defend our rights. We will speak up and be angry all we want, but if the government says "tough shit," then we will sit back down looking sullen. Nobody has the balls to have a revolution, even though it is perfectly legal in the constitution (or it use to be).

[Frasas]

This is bullshit, we are not going to have an American Revolution because of conservatives who are obsessed about Obama being elected and disagreeing with every goddamn plan he throws out there. There will not be any kind of revolution or crap in this country, because people are mad about socialism. These protesters at the town halls have no idea what socialism is, they just spread the crap the GOP and right wing radio hosts tell them. Some say get your government hands of their medicare? Some are incredibly ignorant, not all, but some.

Again, a ignorant, yet misinformed American who generalizes (like the incorrect radio talks shows) that the whole GOP are neo-cons looking to kill Socialists. I can tell you that the whole GOP are not war mongers and racists.

[Frasas]

Conservative Republicans: STRONGLY favor protecting our civil liberties - Truly American
Neo-Conservatives: See our civil liberties as an unnecessary restriction on government power.
Conservative Republicans: STRONGLY favor a smaller, less intrusive government- Truly American
Neo-Conservatives: Are Willing to spend money (and expand government reach) without restraint, provided it helps them further their agenda.
Conservative Republicans: STRONGLY favor Fiscal Responsibility and reducing taxes - GOOD FOR AMERICA
Neo-Conservatives: Fool the public into thinking a “tax cut” (Paid for with PRINTED MONEY) is actually beneficial, hiding the fact that it amounts to little more than a loan that the taxpayer (or their children) will have to repay WITH INTEREST.

[Kynchile]

If it came down to the US Constitution being disassembled within the next twenty years then I would expect violence. After that apathy will probably reign. It just depends on how the current peaceful revolution is played out. The conservatives are doing it right. Peaceful but loud protest and then civil disobediance. We can do it the MLK way.

[Brewdomia]

This is bullshit, we are not going to have an American Revolution because of conservatives who are obsessed about Obama being elected and disagreeing with every goddamn plan he throws out there. There will not be any kind of revolution or crap in this country, because people are mad about socialism. These protesters at the town halls have no idea what socialism is, they just spread the crap the GOP and right wing radio hosts tell them. Some say get your government hands of their medicare? Some are incredibly ignorant, not all, but some.

Again, a ignorant, yet misinformed American who generalizes (like the incorrect radio talks shows) that the whole GOP are neo-cons looking to kill Socialists. I can tell you that the whole GOP are not war mongers and racists.

I never said you are war-mongers or a racist, but this opposition is not sincere, it is mostly partisan politics.

[Saint Clair Island]

Why did you true conservatives let the neocons hijack the Republican party? You should have taken a stand the way all those special interest groups did and voted for different candidates in the primaries.

What the hell, man? You think that's any kind of point at all? No one just rolled over and surrendered to these clowns. No one knew better. It's the same as how so many old people are just now waking up and realizing that the Democrat party isn't theirs anymore.

I'm curious, though. Neocons have been around for a while -- forty years, just about. And yet true conservatives haven't even tried to get true conservative politicians into power (unless you can name some true conservative politicians which I'm not aware of). Plenty of time for someone to wake up and notice that the Republicans weren't in favour of small government anymore.

I (who make that argument a lot) am aware that it's a flawed argument. It's meant to point out the failures of democracy to those who blindly continue to insist that it's the best system out there. Instead, I'd make the argument that government officials are supposed to do whatever they think is best because they, and not the mob and the demagogues who sway its sentiment, know what's best for the nation and the people as a whole.

Flawed argument there. Just being in a position of power does NOT, in the mind of any reasonable person, equate to knowing what's best for the country and its people. I don't think I need to explain this further. Feel free to alter your wording if you think the point is salvageable, and I'll simply dismiss this bit of nonsense.

The whole reason people are chosen to govern (whether by the people or by some other means) is because they are meant to make decisions affecting the whole country rather than just an individual or a family. Thus, if a leader doesn't know what's best for the country and the people, he's not doing his job, and should be replaced with another leader. Moreover, government doesn't consist of just one person; it consists of hundreds or thousands, who make decisions as a group, which some consider more reliable than an autocrat's decision.

Not relevant to the debate though, so let's drop it.

The thing is, people often seem to misuse the term "tyranny". Tyranny is entirely subjective; a government is not tyrannical unless people believe it is. Hence the existence of the Constitution, so that people will not consider the US Government tyrannical and attempt to overthrow it. Moreover, all of the checks on the government's power are related to its federalist system, independent of the people -- hence why the executive cannot create legislation, the legislative cannot carry out the laws it passes, et cetera. Apart from these, in practice, there are no checks on the power of the state.

My point was not about tyranny or its definition, nor powers granted to or claimed by the state. Just about the social character of the country's populace. Please respond directly instead of going on tangents.

it is? you weren't very clear. and I don't see any real argument in that paragraph either. "very few people are supporting armed rebellion"? well, obviously. "The threat of rebellion was always intended to be a check against the government"? in spite of tom jefferson's limited influence on continued US policy, I'll grant that. "Violence is an ingrained defensive mechanism in American social character"? evidently, otherwise so many people wouldn't support it. I don't see anything I can really respond to there.

[H N Fiddlebottoms VIII]

I get the feeling that most people who say things like this have never actually tried having sex in a canoe, because it isn't so much being "close to water" as "falling into the water because canoes aren't very particularly stable."

Actually I have. They're rather stable if you've anchored it into the current properly.

Well, it sounds like someone thinks they're mighty special.

[Frasas]

This is bullshit, we are not going to have an American Revolution because of conservatives who are obsessed about Obama being elected and disagreeing with every goddamn plan he throws out there. There will not be any kind of revolution or crap in this country, because people are mad about socialism. These protesters at the town halls have no idea what socialism is, they just spread the crap the GOP and right wing radio hosts tell them. Some say get your government hands of their medicare? Some are incredibly ignorant, not all, but some.

Again, a ignorant, yet misinformed American who generalizes (like the incorrect radio talks shows) that the whole GOP are neo-cons looking to kill Socialists. I can tell you that the whole GOP are not war mongers and racists.

I never said you are war-mongers or a racist, but this opposition is not sincere, it is mostly partisan politics.

That is what is flawed about the two party system, it is constant political bickering and arguing.

[Ewa beach]

yes i BELIEVE there will be another american civil war. the south will rise again and beat the north and i will be part of the south army fighting the north. i hope there will be. although i DONT KNOW, and for all you peope saying that there wont be another one, you dont know, anyhting is possible.now you BELIEVE that there wont be another one but you dont know for sure

[Frasas]

yes i BELIEVE there will be another american civil war. the south will rise again and beat the north and i will be part of the south army fighting the north. i hope there will be. although i DONT KNOW, and for all you peope saying that there wont be another one, you dont know, anyhting is possible.now you BELIEVE that there wont be another one but you dont know for sure

Do we need to beat you again?

[Farnhamia]

yes i BELIEVE there will be another american civil war. the south will rise again and beat the north and i will be part of the south army fighting the north. i hope there will be. although i DONT KNOW, and for all you peope saying that there wont be another one, you dont know, anyhting is possible.now you BELIEVE that there wont be another one but you dont know for sure

Uh huh, right. You'll be running for the nearest big rock to hide behind, I betcha.

And I laugh at "The South will rise again."

[Ewa beach]

yes i BELIEVE there will be another american civil war. the south will rise again and beat the north and i will be part of the south army fighting the north. i hope there will be. although i DONT KNOW, and for all you peope saying that there wont be another one, you dont know, anyhting is possible.now you BELIEVE that there wont be another one but you dont know for sure

Do we need to beat you again?

again you dont know if youll beat us again anything can happen. i BELIEVE the south will rise again and beat the north and i think we"ll win

[Ewa beach]

yes i BELIEVE there will be another american civil war. the south will rise again and beat the north and i will be part of the south army fighting the north. i hope there will be. although i DONT KNOW, and for all you peope saying that there wont be another one, you dont know, anyhting is possible.now you BELIEVE that there wont be another one but you dont know for sure

Uh huh, right. You'll be running for the nearest big rock to hide behind, I betcha.

And I laugh at "The South will rise again."

actually no i will be out on the frontlines shooting your dumb northen asses

[Frasas]

yes i BELIEVE there will be another american civil war. the south will rise again and beat the north and i will be part of the south army fighting the north. i hope there will be. although i DONT KNOW, and for all you peope saying that there wont be another one, you dont know, anyhting is possible.now you BELIEVE that there wont be another one but you dont know for sure

Do we need to beat you again?

again you dont know if youll beat us again anything can happen. i BELIEVE the south will rise again and beat the north and i think we"ll win

sure.....

[Farnhamia]

yes i BELIEVE there will be another american civil war. the south will rise again and beat the north and i will be part of the south army fighting the north. i hope there will be. although i DONT KNOW, and for all you peope saying that there wont be another one, you dont know, anyhting is possible.now you BELIEVE that there wont be another one but you dont know for sure

Do we need to beat you again?

again you dont know if youll beat us again anything can happen. i BELIEVE the south will rise again and beat the north and i think we"ll win

And I believe you're about 16. When you grow up you'll understand just how wrong you are.

[Saint Clair Island]

Their will never be an armed revolution in the USA because we are to pussy to actually defend our rights. We will speak up and be angry all we want, but if the government says "tough shit," then we will sit back down looking sullen. Nobody has the balls to have a revolution, even though it is perfectly legal in the constitution (or it use to be).

it is? I thought armed revolution was considered "treason", which was illegal.

[Jaigas]

Phenia, I seem to be mostly agreeing with you based on that last post. However, there are two matters on which we disagree. First of all, a true democracy would be nothing but mob rule. As a smart man from a past age mentioned, if 51% of the people in a true democracy voted to kill the other 49%...

The other thing I take issue with is your vilification of the protesters without pointing out that the left is guilty of precisely the same thing. If you agree that both sides are morons when they do it, then we agree.

I'm curious, though. Neocons have been around for a while -- forty years, just about. And yet true conservatives haven't even tried to get true conservative politicians into power (unless you can name some true conservative politicians which I'm not aware of). Plenty of time for someone to wake up and notice that the Republicans weren't in favour of small government anymore.

The tricky nature of the beast is that as the parties strayed further from what people expected from them, they also focused their attention on making the other seem more ghastly and making people think that it was enough to simply pick the lesser of two evils and hope for better days beyond.

[Frasas]

yes i BELIEVE there will be another american civil war. the south will rise again and beat the north and i will be part of the south army fighting the north. i hope there will be. although i DONT KNOW, and for all you peope saying that there wont be another one, you dont know, anyhting is possible.now you BELIEVE that there wont be another one but you dont know for sure

Uh huh, right. You'll be running for the nearest big rock to hide behind, I betcha.

And I laugh at "The South will rise again."

actually no i will be out on the frontlines shooting your dumb northen asses

Sure you probably own a fucking musket redneck.

[Frasas]

Their will never be an armed revolution in the USA because we are to pussy to actually defend our rights. We will speak up and be angry all we want, but if the government says "tough shit," then we will sit back down looking sullen. Nobody has the balls to have a revolution, even though it is perfectly legal in the constitution (or it use to be).

it is? I thought armed revolution was considered "treason", which was illegal.

And will get u executed

[Ewa beach]

umm no i own many guns that you dont know about

and im not 16. you dont know anything about me. you dont know how old i am or where i live

[Saint Clair Island]

umm no i own many guns that you dont know about

and im not 16. you dont know anything about me. you dont know how old i am or where i live

you can't type or write english coherently, so you're probably an ignorant moron. your ideas are infantile, so you're probably under 18. we know lots about you.