US/Obama Healthcare Plan Consolidated MEGA-THREAD

[Ravea]

Obama gives up on the Public Option

This is a great victory we have stoped Obama`s Takeover and American Goverment Healthcare has been stoped.

The Protesters at the town halls are the real heros. This is a great victory All Americans Cheer

The protesters at town halls are assholes, for the most part. Screaming over senators isn't a way to debate or express your opinions intelligently or effectively.

And I havn't heard anything about Obama "giving up the public option."

[New Kereptica]

Anyway I am not debating this go look it up the Public Option has failed allright let`s move on

If you aren't debating it, why did you create a thread about it on a debate forum?

I just wanted to give the information I am not debating it just spreading the word

So post it in the goddamn consolidated thread. Do you think the mods made that just for the hell of it?

[Pope Joan]

America's healthcare is about to be stoped.

It is going to be removed from a mine by means of an excavation in the form of steps made by the mining of ore from steeply inclined or vertical veins? Say it ain't so!

Obama gives up on the Public Option

This is a great victory we have stoped Obama`s Takeover and American Goverment Healthcare has been stoped.

[Sarkhaan]

Anyway I am not debating this go look it up the Public Option has failed allright let`s move on

If you aren't debating it, why did you create a thread about it on a debate forum?

I just wanted to give the information I am not debating it just spreading the word

The inaccurate and manipulated word that could easily have been posted in the thread that already exists for the purpose of discussing and debating the current and future state of health care in the US?

[History land]

I don`t know alot about the forums I just poasted here because I thought people would actually look at it

[Sarkhaan]

I don`t know alot about the forums I just poasted here because I thought people would actually look at it

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=21
Merry Christmas. Read and enjoy eternal enlightenment.

[New Kereptica]

America's healthcare is about to be stoped.

It is going to be removed from a mine by means of an excavation in the form of steps made by the mining of ore from steeply inclined or vertical veins? Say it ain't so!

Obama gives up on the Public Option

This is a great victory we have stoped Obama`s Takeover and American Goverment Healthcare has been stoped.

Yeah, I know.

[You-Gi-Owe]

Don't worry or get complacent. The public option, it will come back.

It didn't die in the last forty years. No one drove a stake through it's heart, stuffed it's mouth with garlic and then cut off it's head.

[History land]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32437468/ns/politics-white_house/

Here`s a report from MSNBC

I don`t like MSNBC

[New Kereptica]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32437468/ns/politics-white_house/

Here`s a report from MSNBC

I don`t like MSNBC

There's a question mark in the title of that article for a reason. It means they are not doing it yet, though it may happen.

[History land]

I can`t wait till they abondon it but that`s all I have to say on this matter

[You-Gi-Owe]

On that note, its really late here. I need my beauty *cough* rest. I shall continue this later.

ta

No, please, don't feel you need to. Not on our account. Seriously.

Fixed because we all know that everyone posts better after a little rest and refreshment.

[Thethunderdome]

The Protesters at the town halls are the real heros. This is a great victory All Americans Cheer

I am against this whole deal but those protesters are complete assholes. Not only are they counterproductive and makes us look bad but really it is counter to the whole idea of free speech and debate. There are tons of legit ways to say national health care sucks, that is not one at all

[Hairless Kitten II]

Nope.
The wait times aren't even longer, actually.

How do you know?

[You-Gi-Owe]

The Protesters at the town halls are the real heros. This is a great victory All Americans Cheer

I am against this whole deal but those protesters are complete assholes. Not only are they counterproductive and makes us look bad but really it is counter to the whole idea of free speech and debate. There are tons of legit ways to say national health care sucks, that is not one at all

"... makes us look bad,...." If you're cynical, you might believe that they're the dupes of the insurance industry, but at least they look like men and women instead of whipped dogs or sheep.

I'm cynical in that I believe this mess would have become law inside of a month's time, if these people hadn't showed up at the town hall meetings and demanded that their elected representatives hear from them.

[Tubbsalot]

"... makes us look bad,...." If you're cynical, you might believe that they're the dupes of the insurance industry, but at least they look like men and women instead of whipped dogs or sheep.

I'm not sure what your point is. The people who aren't there look like men and women, too. They even look like they could potentially be intelligent.

[Allbeama]

Why was I born in this country? If the public option concept dies, I will lose faith in our system and the American people. At least its not a very far fall for me at the moment. I mean we are going to let screaming raving lunatic bullies stop a move toward achieving some measure of equality? The same people who refuse to acknowledge that the concept they hate so must exists in other countries, it works, and by the way does not take away civil liberties and freedom. In fact it seems to me many of them have more freedom than we do.

[History land]

:palm: Why was I born in this country? If the public option concept dies, I will lose faith in our system and the American people. At least its not a very far fall for me at the moment. I mean we are going to let screaming raving lunatic bullies stop a move toward achieving some measure of equality? The same people who refuse to acknowledge that the concept they hate so must exists in other countries, it works, and by the way does not take away civil liberties and freedom. In fact it seems to me many of them have more freedom than we do.

Do you watch MSNBC

[Thethunderdome]

The Protesters at the town halls are the real heros. This is a great victory All Americans Cheer

I am against this whole deal but those protesters are complete assholes. Not only are they counterproductive and makes us look bad but really it is counter to the whole idea of free speech and debate. There are tons of legit ways to say national health care sucks, that is not one at all

"... makes us look bad,...." If you're cynical, you might believe that they're the dupes of the insurance industry, but at least they look like men and women instead of whipped dogs or sheep.

I'm cynical in that I believe this mess would have become law inside of a month's time, if these people hadn't showed up at the town hall meetings and demanded that their elected representatives hear from them.

I really doubt that, but we'll never know.

edit: I'm talking about the ones who were yelling and screaming and stuff, not just the normal protesters. The one's drowning out the speaker.

[Erich Dahmer]

You know what I simply love about the people who make these kinds of arguments under the belief that they're being 'rational' and 'logical' and 'seeing past the bullshit'? The fact that they have become so obsessed with the study of their own apparently unempathic, spiteful, cauterized hearts that they have failed to learn anything objective about humanity.

If you had studied anything of psychology, evolutionary biology, anthropology, or indeed, any subject other than your own navel, you would know that human beings are neurologically programmed to care about one another. Kindness, empathy and compassion are not social constructions--they are hardwired into our very beings, as they are hardwired into many other animals, from apes and monkeys, to dolphins and whales, to wolves and elephants. Nature selected for animals that care about one another and share work and reward, because it BENEFITS THE INDIVIDUAL. Your naive and baseless belief that this is all a mythology created to keep you down flies in the face of evolution and common sense.

It's not that I don't trust you but I'm a skeptic and I don't blindly trust you or anyone else. Could you please show your fucking work?

Also, there is no such thing as empathy. You can't possibly know what another person is actually feeling. Empathy is when delusional fuckwits profile others and try to emulate what they think the other person is feeling or project their own emotions and attitudes to an object incapable of feeling. There are few things that offend me more than someone telling me that they know how I feel, especially after something traumatic. It's all in your head.

[Valipac]

Everyone needs to take a step back and realize that the best option isn't the complete public sector dominance like the Republicans want or the "public option" the Democrats are pushing. Daniel Hannan was ripped for being "unpatriotic" when he discounted the NHS, but in reality, he's right. The health care system in Singapore is much better than either of the systems we constantly bicker about in America.

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/200 ... _heal.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Singapore

There's links that give more or less the basics of their system. Read it. Read other sources about their system. I'm pretty sure that if Democrats and Republicans would both get over themselves, they could agree to that system (and don't even try and suggest what the Democrats are pushing is similar to that 9_9)

[Ryadn]

The Protesters at the town halls are the real heros. This is a great victory All Americans Cheer

I am against this whole deal but those protesters are complete assholes. Not only are they counterproductive and makes us look bad but really it is counter to the whole idea of free speech and debate. There are tons of legit ways to say national health care sucks, that is not one at all

"... makes us look bad,...." If you're cynical, you might believe that they're the dupes of the insurance industry, but at least they look like men and women instead of whipped dogs or sheep.

I'm cynical in that I believe this mess would have become law inside of a month's time, if these people hadn't showed up at the town hall meetings and demanded that their elected representatives hear from them.

That's not cynical. That's paranoid.

And yes, it was very radical and prescient of them to show up at the openly advertised town hall meetings that their representatives coordinated in order to get their opinions. Damn their trickery!

[Fartsniffage]

Nope.

I mean, it's not like you don't have to wait a while in the emergency room if you show up for non-emergency things (e.g. severe stomach pain when the walk-in clinics are closed), but if you show up to the appropriate places you get treated in a timely manner. I've also walked right up to non-walk in clinics and got a doctor's appointment right away. When I actually book appointments properly I don't generally have to do so well in advance either.

And recent cutbacks have made things a bit crappier, like vision used to be covered (well, eye exams at least) now they're not. Same goes with physiotherapy. I also think that psychiatric care should be covered, but it isn't.

I don't know about this. I showed up at a and e with stomach pains last night and this morning I find myself on a surgical ward waiting for my appendix to be removed. I had xrays and blood tests pretty much on arrival and was on a gurney waiting to be taken up to a bed.

Thank god this didn't happen in a socialized medical system, I'd have died in the waiting room. ;-)

No bills, no added stress, the only thing I've had to sign is a consent form and I had a fit blonde doctor playing with my nuts this morning. God I love the nhs.

Watch this, I'll get mrsa now.

[Ryadn]

You know what I simply love about the people who make these kinds of arguments under the belief that they're being 'rational' and 'logical' and 'seeing past the bullshit'? The fact that they have become so obsessed with the study of their own apparently unempathic, spiteful, cauterized hearts that they have failed to learn anything objective about humanity.

If you had studied anything of psychology, evolutionary biology, anthropology, or indeed, any subject other than your own navel, you would know that human beings are neurologically programmed to care about one another. Kindness, empathy and compassion are not social constructions--they are hardwired into our very beings, as they are hardwired into many other animals, from apes and monkeys, to dolphins and whales, to wolves and elephants. Nature selected for animals that care about one another and share work and reward, because it BENEFITS THE INDIVIDUAL. Your naive and baseless belief that this is all a mythology created to keep you down flies in the face of evolution and common sense.

It's not that I don't trust you but I'm a skeptic and I don't blindly trust you or anyone else. Could you please show your fucking work?

Also, there is no such thing as empathy. You can't possibly know what another person is actually feeling. Empathy is when delusional fuckwits profile others and try to emulate what they think the other person is feeling or project their own emotions and attitudes to an object incapable of feeling. There are few things that offend me more than someone telling me that they know how I feel, especially after something traumatic. It's all in your head.

I don't show my fucking work in public---I'm pretty sure that's public nudity and lewd behavior---but I can link you to some sources for the claims I made.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070625085134.htm
http://www.emory.edu/LIVING_LINKS/pdf_attachments/de%20Waal%20(2008).pdf
http://blog.92y.org/index.php/weblog/item/dr_frans_de_waal/ - indeed, de Waal is the leading researcher in the study of reciprocal altruism in primates
http://www.emory.edu/LIVING_LINKS/pdf_attachments/Warmglow_PNAS2008.pdf
http://www.emory.edu/LIVING_LINKS/pdf_attachments/NewScientist2005.pdf

As for your refutation of empathy: of course you can't know what another person is 'actually' feeling. Only the individual knows what's in her/his mind. Empathy describes the ability to imagine oneself in another's position, to see from her/his perspective and gain an understanding not of what the person *is* thinking and feeling, but what the person *might* think or feel, based on the surrounding circumstances and the person's behavior, communication, etc.

[Greed and Death]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... s_politics

Administration officials signaled Sunday that the White House may be willing to jettison a controversial government-run insurance plan

If this is the case, I may be willing to stop yelling at democrat congressmen.
The regulation may be a bit much for me, but so long as my right to not have insurance is protected I am happy.