NationStates

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:13 am**

The fact that people actually read right-wing drivel and take it as gospel appalls me.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:14 am**

Trailers wrote:The fact that people actually read right-wing drivel and take it as gospel appalls me.

Just for the record, I'm not counting anything short of peer-reviewed scholarly sources as credible for this. All the mainstream media exaggerates it.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:16 am**

Milks Empire wrote:Got a credible source for that? Newsmax is not credible.

So what sources are credible in your opinion? Moveon.org? Asides from your dispute with certain sources, would you care to address the fact that there is no verification process to determine citizens from illegals in the healthcare bill? Or that Democrats blocked an amendment that would've done that?

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:17 am**

Saiwania wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:Got a credible source for that? Newsmax is not credible.

So what sources are credible in your opinion?

Peer-reviewed scholarly articles.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:20 am**

Milks Empire wrote:Peer-reviewed scholarly articles.

And who determines what is 'peer reviewed' and 'scholarly' besides you?

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:24 am**

Saiwania wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:Peer-reviewed scholarly articles.

And who determines what is 'peer reviewed' and 'scholary' besides you?

I will word it to you like this: If it's not from a credible scholarly journal (such as the Journal of the American Medical Association), I will not accept it.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:25 am**

Saiwania wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:Peer-reviewed scholarly articles.

And who determines what is 'peer reviewed' and 'scholarly' besides you?

Really... you don't know what peer review is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:26 am**

Saiwania wrote:I've heard about how this health care reform will cover illegal immigrants. Yes the bill supposedly states that illegals shouldn't be covered, however there is no enforcement mechanism to weed out citizens from non citizens in any of the bills. The Democrats defeated a Republican amendment that would've done just that. They were afraid of offending some of their advocacy groups. So despite all the claims that this won't apply to illegal immigrants, I believe the language in the bill is intentionally vague so as to indirectly allow some illegals to benefit at the expense of taxpayers.

Source: http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/obama_ ... 37484.html
Obama Health Plan to cover 12 million illegals.

That's not a fair representation.

Illegals can buy health insurance NOW, if they pay the premiums and can find a vendor.

Allowing illegals to pay the premium and obtain public option healthcare would be no different.

I have to point out two things, though:

1) If you've looked at the proposals currently on the table, the people that can actually 'choose' the government option are a tiny minority - hopefully this will be fixed before the vote.

2) You're looking at a source from July. The bill has changed a lot since then.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:32 am**

Trailers wrote:As an unemployed, and thanks to that uninsured, American who voted for Obama and still staunchly support him I have to say that the naysayers in my country only manage to demonstrate their selfishness and callus outlook as well as a lack of respect for the less fortunate citizens of their country. And people wonder why the US isn't 1st in the world for "Number 1 place to live" when our homeless population is growing exponentially.

80% of new jobs (historically) are created by small businesses. What has Obama done for them? He raised their taxes. He is burdening them with future tax increases. He is proposing legislation that will increase their costs. He, my friend, is trying very hard (unintentionally I hope) to make it very difficult for you to find a job. Unless you decide to work for the government.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:34 am**

Milks Empire wrote: (such as the Journal of the American Medical Association), I will not accept it.

The AMA is in the tank for Obama and the Democrats, I do not consider them as credible or impartial anymore than I do Sean Hannity. Besides which, the AMA only represents about 17% of the doctors in the US. I'm not completely against health reform, but I recognize that there will be many things I will not like one bit if it passes. Namely, the individual mandate and the possibility that it will explode the debt.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:35 am**

The right for all to have access to health care is of course evil.
The fact that when your job fire you for making profit and that you lose all possibility of health is right, what is an human life compared to profit ?
Of course people who are paid a misery or were fired because their entreprise is relocated in china are uggly lazzy parasites.
Yes if you are poor, it is your fault.
Being fired, disabled only happen to others, to thoses who desserve it, then why the neeed of an health care ?
Freedom is the right to have poors in a rich country .
To not be socialist, ( what an uggly word) it is the holly duty that thoses who have luck and money keep it, after all all good christian know that never jesus asked for charity and sharing, he was supporting the merchants of the ^temple.
Yes, poor are uggly lazy bums, what do they have to offert else their work? We all know that a corporation only need people who own wall street actions, who is fool enougth to say that a corporation cant exist without workers?
If you are poor , it is your fault, if you dont accept to be paid 1,5 dollars a day when ethiopian survive weeks with this, yes you dont desserve any right. If could not be Ceo, enginieer, owner,; it is your fault, a country dont need workers, and as we all know there is ceo jobs for everyone.
Only a bad patriot can think can equality, solidarity, fraternity are the right values, no we all know that egoism, profit and greed are what make a nation be great.

:clap:

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:37 am**

Saiwania wrote:The AMA is in the tank for Obama and the Democrats

Prove it.

Saiwania wrote:the AMA only represents about 17% of the doctors in the US

Prove this too.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:37 am**

Sibirsky wrote:
Trailers wrote:As an unemployed, and thanks to that uninsured, American who voted for Obama and still staunchly support him I have to say that the naysayers in my country only manage to demonstrate their selfishness and callus outlook as well as a lack of respect for the less fortunate citizens of their country. And people wonder why the US isn't 1st in the world for "Number 1 place to live" when our homeless population is growing exponentially.

80% of new jobs (historically) are created by small businesses. What has Obama done for them? He raised their taxes.

Which taxes?

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:39 am**

Sibirsky wrote:
Trailers wrote:As an unemployed, and thanks to that uninsured, American who voted for Obama and still staunchly support him I have to say that the naysayers in my country only manage to demonstrate their selfishness and callus outlook as well as a lack of respect for the less fortunate citizens of their country. And people wonder why the US isn't 1st in the world for "Number 1 place to live" when our homeless population is growing exponentially.

80% of new jobs (historically) are created by small businesses. What has Obama done for them? He raised their taxes. He is burdening them with future tax increases. He is proposing legislation that will increase their costs. He, my friend, is trying very hard (unintentionally I hope) to make it very difficult for you to find a job. Unless you decide to work for the government.

I dare you to prove any of that.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:59 am**

If I attempt to prove anything my source will either be dismissed or I'll be asked to prove something else. So I give up in trying to back up my legitimate concerns, as I'm not that dedicated to long, drawn out debates that leads to dead ends and circles. All it does is infuriate me. That said, I believe that people should be able to opt out of the individual mandate and that all government employees (including senators and congress) should be subject to the government plan if this passes.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:05 pm**

Saiwania wrote:If I attempt to prove anything my source will either be dismissed or I'll be asked to prove something else. So I give up in trying to back up my legitimate concerns, as I'm not that dedicated to long, drawn out debates that leads to dead ends and circles. All it does is infuriate me. That said, I believe that people should be able to opt out of the individual mandate and that all government employees (including senators and congress) should be subject to the government plan if this passes.

It is easy no to play the offended victim when you are asked for a proof of what you said .
I could say for exemple Bush really had a message from god and play the offended if someone ask me a proff. With such a reaction you allow anyone to say any rumor and oax and to not have to give evidences.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:12 pm**

I'm not very good at searching for sources that support my claims, google often doesn't provide me what I'm looking for. And if I'm limited to a select few sources I can't find anything to make a rebuttal so that's the primary reason I give up. There are debaters far better than myself that can oppose some parts of the reform plan as written. I'm just going to say that I like the idea of lowering costs but hate the idea of forcing people to have insurance and expanding my government into a nanny state.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:12 pm**

Saiwania wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:Peer-reviewed scholarly articles.

And who determines what is 'peer reviewed' and 'scholarly' besides you?

Your opinion is no longer relevant.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:20 pm**

Saiwania wrote:I'm not very good at searching for sources that support my claims, google often doesn't provide me what I'm looking for. And if I'm limited to a select few sources I can't find anything to make a rebuttal so that's the primary reason I give up. There are debaters far better than myself that can oppose some parts of the reform plan as written. I'm just going to say that I like the idea of lowering costs but hate the idea of forcing people to have insurance and expanding my government into a nanny state.

What is a nany state? One that make sure that noone who was fired because their factory was relocated in china, or is too old, or is disabled will die because hospitals ask before if you can pay ?
An human life is for you to pricy ? Or are you of the lucky one who will never be disabled ? have to risk of accidents and cant be fired .?
In this case you are an undestroyable ceo with regenerative capacities.
In this case grats you are one of the few bruce wayne the earth have, i hope you use your capacities as a night time heroe.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:39 pm**

I'd like to see health insurance companies put completely out of business and a robust public plan for everyone. I don't even care if my taxes increase because of it. I want to make sure that anyone who needs healthcare can get it and they don't have to lose everything they own to get needed healthcare.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:13 pm**

Chocolatemouse wrote:What is a nanny state? One that makes sure that no one who was fired because their factory was relocated in china, or is too old, or is disabled will die because hospitals ask before if you can pay? An human life is for you to pricey ? Or are you of the lucky one who will never be disabled ? have to risk of accidents and cant be fired? In this case you are an undestroyable CEO with regenerative capacities. In this case congrats you are one of the few Bruce Waynes the earth have, I hope you use your capacities as a night time hero.

If you are quite done with your rhetoric, appeal to emotion, and atrocious grammar that I had to edit. It is false to claim that American hospitals deny people treatment in the event of an emergency, they are barred by law from doing so. US hospitals have to give treatment to a dying person regardless of ability to pay. Even if said person is an illegal immigrant. And as far as I'm concerned, it is not the government's duty to guarantee you a job as it is the responsibility of the individual to obtain employment. I'm young and healthy so I don't need health insurance, I would rather pay the fine than get coverage if it is cheaper to do so. And it appears that will be the case if health reform passes.

Where do you think the entitlement mentality should end? First it will be free health care, then someday the government will want to provide free college education, then it will be free internet with no thought as to how to pay for it all and costs be damned, let's just have another tax hike, allow the national debt to explode, and allow the dollar to become worthless. When the welfare state collapses under its own weight I will say I told you so. This path is not sustainable in my view. What do you think about social security and medicare being bankrupt? The US has $59 trillion in unfunded liabilities and the world economy only has about $61 trillion dollars. How would that ever be payed off? It isn't obviously, we just continue to add on more debt like there is no tomorrow.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:16 pm**

Watching the 'It's Time to Deliver' speech, pretty fuckin' good.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:25 pm**

Saiwania wrote:
Chocolatemouse wrote:What is a nanny state? One that makes sure that no one who was fired because their factory was relocated in china, or is too old, or is disabled will die because hospitals ask before if you can pay? An human life is for you to pricey ? Or are you of the lucky one who will never be disabled ? have to risk of accidents and cant be fired? In this case you are an undestroyable CEO with regenerative capacities. In this case congrats you are one of the few Bruce Waynes the earth have, I hope you use your capacities as a night time hero.

If you are quite done with your rhetoric, appeal to emotion, and atrocious grammar that I had to edit. It is false to claim that American hospitals deny people treatment in the event of an emergency, they are barred by law from doing so. US hospitals have to give treatment to a dying person regardless of ability to pay. Even if said person is an illegal immigrant. And as far as I'm concerned, it is not the government's duty to guarantee you a job as it is the responsibility of the individual to obtain employment. I'm young and healthy so I don't need health insurance, I would rather pay the fine than get coverage if it is cheaper to do so. And it appears that will be the case if health reform passes.

Where do you think the entitlement mentality should end? First it will be free health care, then someday the government will want to provide free college education, then it will be free internet with no thought as to how to pay for it all and costs be damned, let's just have another tax hike, allow the national debt to explode, and allow the dollar to become worthless. When the welfare state collapses under it's own weight I will say I told you so. This path is not sustainable in my view. What do you think about social security and medicare being bankrupt? The US has $59 trillion in unfunded liabilities and the world economy only has about $61 trillion dollars. How would that ever be payed off? It isn't obviously, we just continue to add on more debt like there is no tomorrow.

Yes i appologize of my emotions, being an human who care about others , is a fault
I appologize for my english , not being american is a fault
I appologize for my rethoric, what is a rethoric ? To say that people who are fired and cant be healed have to go to caritative hospitals with lotery to know who will be healed? ( It is a fact sorry)
Or someone who think that public care is awfully socialist and that money have to stay in pocket of thoses who have money ?
Once again i am sorry to be a foreigner with emotions.
And on the net we are all foreigners, it is not only an american place.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:21 pm**

Because of the shortcomings of the privately-funded and deregulated insurence industy, my grandmother died of easily treatable bone cancer. I am in complete and total support of government provided and regulated healthcare.

Posted: **Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:39 pm**

Bikonria wrote:Because of the shortcomings of the privately-funded and deregulated insurence industy, my grandmother died of easily treatable bone cancer. I am in complete and total support of government provided and regulated healthcare.

And Sibirsky if people do start to go to the government more then the corps it just means corps are bad at providing service and I know you want to protect the corps but you know if they don't change there out of here.

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