US/Obama Healthcare Plan Consolidated MEGA-THREAD

[Jocabia]

Also, you are argueing 2 different things: Affordable healthcare and universal healthcare(insurance).

I am with you that reducing the cost of healthcare is important. NO doubt. So is reducing the waste and fraud of medicare/aide. Fine. We dont need another system. We just need to clean up the system we have.
Pass comprehensive litigation reform
Give insurance companies the ability to compete across state lines
Make insurace portable (across companies)
Reduce the amount of time and paperwork doctors need to file claims
Eliminate "cherry picking" of the insured
Eliminate "pre-existing conditions" clauses, (sticky here, for several different reasons I can get into if you want)

yeah, I have no problem with passing legislation to make Healthcare more affordable. Most of the measures dont even require expanding the Govmt.

As far as Universal Insurance Coverage:
Make the changes necessary to reduce costs.
Cover through existing, but streamlined, Medicare/aide programs the old, chronically ill, and the children of the poor
Make private insurace affordable (see above) and empower employers to administer the insurance in effective/efficient ways
For those who are UNWILLING to work. NO govmt handouts. Incentivise people to donate to private charities on a 1:1 deduction basis. For every dollar you giveto charity, 1 dollar comes directly off your bottom line tax bill. This will cover those who are lazy so they arent dying in the streets. At least most of them, we cant have everything now can we?

They are entirely intertwined. Reducing costs requires us to get people taking care of themselves. Preventive maintenance works. It keeps people working. It keeps that on the job. It helps them live longer, have healthier babies and basically be less of a burden. Preventive care requires universal care.

The government option is just an option. If private insurers put a good product at a fair price, they have no concern with competition. FedEx and UPS aren't struggling. Hell, water is given away for just about nothing, straight from the tap, and people still go to the store to buy it. Government competition hasn't proven to be stifling. Insurance companies have stifled competition for years. It's time we stop allowing it.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Also, you are argueing 2 different things: Affordable healthcare and universal healthcare(insurance).

I am with you that reducing the cost of healthcare is important. NO doubt. So is reducing the waste and fraud of medicare/aide. Fine. We dont need another system. We just need to clean up the system we have.
Pass comprehensive litigation reform
Give insurance companies the ability to compete across state lines
Make insurace portable (across companies)
Reduce the amount of time and paperwork doctors need to file claims
Eliminate "cherry picking" of the insured
Eliminate "pre-existing conditions" clauses, (sticky here, for several different reasons I can get into if you want)

yeah, I have no problem with passing legislation to make Healthcare more affordable. Most of the measures dont even require expanding the Govmt.

As far as Universal Insurance Coverage:
Make the changes necessary to reduce costs.
Cover through existing, but streamlined, Medicare/aide programs the old, chronically ill, and the children of the poor
Make private insurace affordable (see above) and empower employers to administer the insurance in effective/efficient ways
For those who are UNWILLING to work. NO govmt handouts. Incentivise people to donate to private charities on a 1:1 deduction basis. For every dollar you giveto charity, 1 dollar comes directly off your bottom line tax bill. This will cover those who are lazy so they arent dying in the streets. At least most of them, we cant have everything now can we?

They are entirely intertwined. Reducing costs requires us to get people taking care of themselves. Preventive maintenance works. It keeps people working. It keeps that on the job. It helps them live longer, have healthier babies and basically be less of a burden. Preventive care requires universal care.

The government option is just an option. If private insurers put a good product at a fair price, they have no concern with competition. FedEx and UPS aren't struggling. Hell, water is given away for just about nothing, straight from the tap, and people still go to the store to buy it. Government competition hasn't proven to be stifling. Insurance companies have stifled competition for years. It's time we stop allowing it.

You know that $2.00 bottle of water "Evian" spell it backwards and it is "Naive" Chew on that for a while.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Also, you are argueing 2 different things: Affordable healthcare and universal healthcare(insurance).

I am with you that reducing the cost of healthcare is important. NO doubt. So is reducing the waste and fraud of medicare/aide. Fine. We dont need another system. We just need to clean up the system we have.
Pass comprehensive litigation reform
Give insurance companies the ability to compete across state lines
Make insurace portable (across companies)
Reduce the amount of time and paperwork doctors need to file claims
Eliminate "cherry picking" of the insured
Eliminate "pre-existing conditions" clauses, (sticky here, for several different reasons I can get into if you want)

yeah, I have no problem with passing legislation to make Healthcare more affordable. Most of the measures dont even require expanding the Govmt.

As far as Universal Insurance Coverage:
Make the changes necessary to reduce costs.
Cover through existing, but streamlined, Medicare/aide programs the old, chronically ill, and the children of the poor
Make private insurace affordable (see above) and empower employers to administer the insurance in effective/efficient ways
For those who are UNWILLING to work. NO govmt handouts. Incentivise people to donate to private charities on a 1:1 deduction basis. For every dollar you giveto charity, 1 dollar comes directly off your bottom line tax bill. This will cover those who are lazy so they arent dying in the streets. At least most of them, we cant have everything now can we?

They are entirely intertwined. Reducing costs requires us to get people taking care of themselves. Preventive maintenance works. It keeps people working. It keeps that on the job. It helps them live longer, have healthier babies and basically be less of a burden. Preventive care requires universal care.

The government option is just an option. If private insurers put a good product at a fair price, they have no concern with competition. FedEx and UPS aren't struggling. Hell, water is given away for just about nothing, straight from the tap, and people still go to the store to buy it. Government competition hasn't proven to be stifling. Insurance companies have stifled competition for years. It's time we stop allowing it.

I think we are close on an accord. We disagree on the Govmt option but that is OK. You still havent addressed my "hobo with cancer" question. Or will you rescind your statement that "No one is promising FREE healthcare"

[Sibirsky]

I know exactly what medicare is. My wife is currently ON it. You quote stuff as fact "systems work very well in other countries where people are generally healthier, live longer and have healthier babies." Really? What do the facts say? Show me some facts. Hard comparitive statistics of mortality rates.

According to here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate and I will find anouther source if wiki does not suit you:

UK 9.9
Japan 9.0
France 8.9
US 8.2
Canada 7.4 (granted better)

So according to this data, People are healthier in some other countries yeah, but not the ones that have "universal healthcare" except Canada, but their wait times are higher.

Hmmm...

Okay, let's start with Infant mortality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ality_rate

According to the UN we rank 33. According to the US, we rank 46. This should put in the context of the US paying more for healthcare than EVERY other country in the world. More than has ever been paid in the history of the world. And we rank at best 33rd.

For example, a child is twice as likely to die before the age of five in the US than in Sweden, for example. Roughly the same when compare to Norway or Japan or Iceland. You'd think that would make us want to look at what Sweden, Norway, Japan and Iceland are doing, but not in your world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... expectancy

For life expectancy, we rank 35th by member nations. Fine one that did better than us and having a free market solution. You won't. It doesn't exist.

Men live three years longer in Japan. Women live five years longer. Again, you'd think that would make us want to look at Japan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Japan

Not in your world, though. That would just make too much sense. Instead jam your head firmly into the sand and just keep saying that if we just pretend like the free market will fix it, it will. Just keep ignoring the evidence, because the evidence lays your claims to waste.

You obviously don't know what a death rate is, so please don't bring it up again. It took three days for me to explain it to the last guy who started an argument about it because he wanted to claim that white people were going extinct in Norway.

Your turn. Since the free market is such a great solution you must have dozens of examples of countries with more free market solutions that have better healthcare than the US. Give me one.

Life expectancy compared to Japan? Perhaps if you were not McDonald's extra large fries eating, SUV driving, obese people as a nation you would live longer. Not a health care issue.

Again, you ignore the fact that the free market is a relatively new phenomenon, and insist on examples. Just because there is no example of something doesn't mean it is not true. Is the free market the best way of providing, food for example? Yes. Was it the best way of providing food 400 years ago? Yes. But were there examples of the free market providing it? Few if any. Doesn't mean it is not the best system.

Is Democracy the best form of government? If we had this discussion in 1775 would you be crying that there are no working examples of it? Seems rather ridiculous.

Just because something has not been tried, doesn't mean it does not work.

[Sibirsky]

Also, you are argueing 2 different things: Affordable healthcare and universal healthcare(insurance).

I am with you that reducing the cost of healthcare is important. NO doubt. So is reducing the waste and fraud of medicare/aide. Fine. We dont need another system. We just need to clean up the system we have.
Pass comprehensive litigation reform
Give insurance companies the ability to compete across state lines
Make insurace portable (across companies)
Reduce the amount of time and paperwork doctors need to file claims
Eliminate "cherry picking" of the insured
Eliminate "pre-existing conditions" clauses, (sticky here, for several different reasons I can get into if you want)

yeah, I have no problem with passing legislation to make Healthcare more affordable. Most of the measures dont even require expanding the Govmt.

As far as Universal Insurance Coverage:
Make the changes necessary to reduce costs.
Cover through existing, but streamlined, Medicare/aide programs the old, chronically ill, and the children of the poor
Make private insurace affordable (see above) and empower employers to administer the insurance in effective/efficient ways
For those who are UNWILLING to work. NO govmt handouts. Incentivise people to donate to private charities on a 1:1 deduction basis. For every dollar you giveto charity, 1 dollar comes directly off your bottom line tax bill. This will cover those who are lazy so they arent dying in the streets. At least most of them, we cant have everything now can we?

They are entirely intertwined. Reducing costs requires us to get people taking care of themselves. Preventive maintenance works. It keeps people working. It keeps that on the job. It helps them live longer, have healthier babies and basically be less of a burden. Preventive care requires universal care.

The government option is just an option. If private insurers put a good product at a fair price, they have no concern with competition. FedEx and UPS aren't struggling. Hell, water is given away for just about nothing, straight from the tap, and people still go to the store to buy it. Government competition hasn't proven to be stifling. Insurance companies have stifled competition for years. It's time we stop allowing it.

Just an option? Funded by taxing health insurers? And they run charities and will not pass that cost along to the consumers. The public option will become the only option for an overwhelming majority over time.

[Peisandros]

Life expectancy compared to Japan? Perhaps if you were not McDonald's extra large fries eating, SUV driving, obese people as a nation you would live longer. Not a health care issue.

Again, you ignore the fact that the free market is a relatively new phenomenon, and insist on examples. Just because there is no example of something doesn't mean it is not true. Is the free market the best way of providing, food for example? Yes. Was it the best way of providing food 400 years ago? Yes. But were there examples of the free market providing it? Few if any. Doesn't mean it is not the best system.

Is Democracy the best form of government? If we had this discussion in 1775 would you be crying that there are no working examples of it? Seems rather ridiculous.

Just because something has not been tried, doesn't mean it does not work.

[Sibirsky]

Life expectancy compared to Japan? Perhaps if you were not McDonald's extra large fries eating, SUV driving, obese people as a nation you would live longer. Not a health care issue.

Again, you ignore the fact that the free market is a relatively new phenomenon, and insist on examples. Just because there is no example of something doesn't mean it is not true. Is the free market the best way of providing, food for example? Yes. Was it the best way of providing food 400 years ago? Yes. But were there examples of the free market providing it? Few if any. Doesn't mean it is not the best system.

Is Democracy the best form of government? If we had this discussion in 1775 would you be crying that there are no working examples of it? Seems rather ridiculous.

Just because something has not been tried, doesn't mean it does not work.

Care to elaborate? I see the bolded part of my statement. That is a lifestyle issue. 80% or so of diseases are lifestyle diseases. Obesity, is directly responsible for a shorter life span, heart disease, diabetes, certain cancers and more.

[Peisandros]

Life expectancy compared to Japan? Perhaps if you were not McDonald's extra large fries eating, SUV driving, obese people as a nation you would live longer. Not a health care issue.

Again, you ignore the fact that the free market is a relatively new phenomenon, and insist on examples. Just because there is no example of something doesn't mean it is not true. Is the free market the best way of providing, food for example? Yes. Was it the best way of providing food 400 years ago? Yes. But were there examples of the free market providing it? Few if any. Doesn't mean it is not the best system.

Is Democracy the best form of government? If we had this discussion in 1775 would you be crying that there are no working examples of it? Seems rather ridiculous.

Just because something has not been tried, doesn't mean it does not work.

Care to elaborate? I see the bolded part of my statement. That is a lifestyle issue. 80% or so of diseases are lifestyle diseases. Obesity, is directly responsible for a shorter life span, heart disease, diabetes, certain cancers and more.

Yes and those are all health care problems.

[Sibirsky]

Life expectancy compared to Japan? Perhaps if you were not McDonald's extra large fries eating, SUV driving, obese people as a nation you would live longer. Not a health care issue.

Again, you ignore the fact that the free market is a relatively new phenomenon, and insist on examples. Just because there is no example of something doesn't mean it is not true. Is the free market the best way of providing, food for example? Yes. Was it the best way of providing food 400 years ago? Yes. But were there examples of the free market providing it? Few if any. Doesn't mean it is not the best system.

Is Democracy the best form of government? If we had this discussion in 1775 would you be crying that there are no working examples of it? Seems rather ridiculous.

Just because something has not been tried, doesn't mean it does not work.

Care to elaborate? I see the bolded part of my statement. That is a lifestyle issue. 80% or so of diseases are lifestyle diseases. Obesity, is directly responsible for a shorter life span, heart disease, diabetes, certain cancers and more.

Yes and those are all health care problems.

Caused by lifestyles choices most of the time.

[NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ]

Life expectancy compared to Japan? Perhaps if you were not McDonald's extra large fries eating, SUV driving, obese people as a nation you would live longer. Not a health care issue.

Again, you ignore the fact that the free market is a relatively new phenomenon, and insist on examples. Just because there is no example of something doesn't mean it is not true. Is the free market the best way of providing, food for example? Yes. Was it the best way of providing food 400 years ago? Yes. But were there examples of the free market providing it? Few if any. Doesn't mean it is not the best system.

Is Democracy the best form of government? If we had this discussion in 1775 would you be crying that there are no working examples of it? Seems rather ridiculous.

Just because something has not been tried, doesn't mean it does not work.

Care to elaborate? I see the bolded part of my statement. That is a lifestyle issue. 80% or so of diseases are lifestyle diseases. Obesity, is directly responsible for a shorter life span, heart disease, diabetes, certain cancers and more.

Source for 80%?

[Sibirsky]

Life expectancy compared to Japan? Perhaps if you were not McDonald's extra large fries eating, SUV driving, obese people as a nation you would live longer. Not a health care issue.

Again, you ignore the fact that the free market is a relatively new phenomenon, and insist on examples. Just because there is no example of something doesn't mean it is not true. Is the free market the best way of providing, food for example? Yes. Was it the best way of providing food 400 years ago? Yes. But were there examples of the free market providing it? Few if any. Doesn't mean it is not the best system.

Is Democracy the best form of government? If we had this discussion in 1775 would you be crying that there are no working examples of it? Seems rather ridiculous.

Just because something has not been tried, doesn't mean it does not work.

Care to elaborate? I see the bolded part of my statement. That is a lifestyle issue. 80% or so of diseases are lifestyle diseases. Obesity, is directly responsible for a shorter life span, heart disease, diabetes, certain cancers and more.

Source for 80%?

http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Health/2009/20090810-JustFourHealthLifestyle.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6005987/Healthy-living-cuts-chronic-disease-by-up-to-80-per-cent.html

http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8428&catid=1&Itemid=8

http://article.wn.com/view/2009/08/11/Research_Healthy_lifestyle_cuts_risks_for_disease/

[Treznor]

I know exactly what medicare is. My wife is currently ON it.

Wait.

Your wife is on Medicare, and you're campaigning against government-assisted healthcare?

That's the coldest thing I've heard all week. And believe me, this has been a cold week.

[Mergelland]

In the Netherlands we have private healtcare but the company's are very ristricted in there doing.
And also emergencies and some treatments are free for everyone.
And it works well.

[Grave_n_idle]

Like Rome, they believe that Bread and Circuses will distract the masses for the decaying state of their sorry nation.

It's interesting that the people who make such a point of decrying the 'decaying state' of the nation, are the very ones who want to argue against the factors that made the nation strong to begin with - a focus on spirituality over material wealth, a desire for community, putting others before yourself, being welcoming to strangers.

You ARE the decay on our nation.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

I know exactly what medicare is. My wife is currently ON it.

Wait.

Your wife is on Medicare, and you're campaigning against government-assisted healthcare?

That's the coldest thing I've heard all week. And believe me, this has been a cold week.

If you read what I have proposed, my wife is the perfect reason to HAVE medicare. Give it to those who have chronic illnesses and the elderly and the children.

I am opposed to the govmt giving free stuff to those who WILL NOT work. Simple and to the point. Incentivise individuals and corps to give to charitible organizations and let those orgs give money to those who WILL NOT work.

All other cases are covered by current programs (both public and private), albeit those programs need some major overhaul.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Like Rome, they believe that Bread and Circuses will distract the masses for the decaying state of their sorry nation.

It's interesting that the people who make such a point of decrying the 'decaying state' of the nation, are the very ones who want to argue against the factors that made the nation strong to begin with - a focus on spirituality over material wealth, a desire for community, putting others before yourself, being welcoming to strangers.

You ARE the decay on our nation.

Buxtahatche is a veteran of a current foreign war. He laid his life on the line to protect your right to say what you are saying. Before you charge a veteran with being the "decay of the nation", I suggest you enlist and put your own life on the line, or simply say "thank you for your service" and then sit down.

[Sibirsky]

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Time for bold questions.

Will my tax dollars go to pay for someone else's abortion?

If I have to pay for your abortion, will you pay for my obesity surgery?

Or my plastic surgery?

Or my Lasic surgery?

Or my Viagra (God forbid)?

Wow, it looks like FREE healthcare for everyone will be nice.

[Sibirsky]

Abortion - yes
Obesity - maybe
Plastic surgery - no
Lasik - no
Viagara - no

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Abortion - yes
Obesity - maybe
Plastic surgery - no
Lasik - no
Viagara - no

Yet, I bet all of that is now, or will be covered by the time this all shakes out.

Universal Healthcare is a political concept not a social concept, therefore will be decided ultimately by the voters:

Viagra? Old guys and thier wives are among the first to vote.
Lasik? No data here, but I am assuming that since laser surgery is not recommended until at least 21 years old, the 21-30 crowd is likely to vote for free Lasik.
Plastic Surgery? Hollywood? Who uses more plastic than Hollywood?
Obesity? Roughly 30% of the American population is technically Obese.

[Sdaeriji]

Time for bold questions.

Will my tax dollars go to pay for someone else's abortion?

If I have to pay for your abortion, will you pay for my obesity surgery?

Or my plastic surgery?

Or my Lasic surgery?

Or my Viagra (God forbid)?

Wow, it looks like FREE healthcare for everyone will be nice.

If it's deemed medically necessary, yes to all. If not, no to all. Elective surgery would no more be covered under a government health care plan than it is under current government health care plans.

[Grave_n_idle]

Buxtahatche is a veteran of a current foreign war. He laid his life on the line to protect your right to say what you are saying. Before you charge a veteran with being the "decay of the nation", I suggest you enlist and put your own life on the line, or simply say "thank you for your service" and then sit down.

Your appeals to emotion are irrelevant.

I have no idea who Buxtahatche is in the real world (the beauty of an anonymous forum), and I don't care - because it doesn't affect the quality of his/her arguments.

Being a veteran, even if true, does not give you a better or more valid opinion.

To address what you said, Buxtahatche is just one more of a long line of people complaining about the decay of our nation, while trying to destroy all the things that made this nation great in the first place. Being a veteran doesn't change that.

And don't even get me started on how veterans of CURRENT wars are doing not a damn thing to protect my right to say anything.

[Grave_n_idle]

Time for bold questions.

Will my tax dollars go to pay for someone else's abortion?

If I have to pay for your abortion, will you pay for my obesity surgery?

Or my plastic surgery?

Or my Lasic surgery?

Or my Viagra (God forbid)?

Wow, it looks like FREE healthcare for everyone will be nice.

Tax dollars? Or premiums?

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Buxtahatche is a veteran of a current foreign war. He laid his life on the line to protect your right to say what you are saying. Before you charge a veteran with being the "decay of the nation", I suggest you enlist and put your own life on the line, or simply say "thank you for your service" and then sit down.

Your appeals to emotion are irrelevant.

I have no idea who Buxtahatche is in the real world (the beauty of an anonymous forum), and I don't care - because it doesn't affect the quality of his/her arguments.

Being a veteran, even if true, does not give you a better or more valid opinion.

To address what you said, Buxtahatche is just one more of a long line of people complaining about the decay of our nation, while trying to destroy all the things that made this nation great in the first place. Being a veteran doesn't change that.

And don't even get me started on how veterans of CURRENT wars are doing not a damn thing to protect my right to say anything.

Your hasty genealizations are irrelevant too sir.

[Jocabia]

Also, you are argueing 2 different things: Affordable healthcare and universal healthcare(insurance).

I am with you that reducing the cost of healthcare is important. NO doubt. So is reducing the waste and fraud of medicare/aide. Fine. We dont need another system. We just need to clean up the system we have.
Pass comprehensive litigation reform
Give insurance companies the ability to compete across state lines
Make insurace portable (across companies)
Reduce the amount of time and paperwork doctors need to file claims
Eliminate "cherry picking" of the insured
Eliminate "pre-existing conditions" clauses, (sticky here, for several different reasons I can get into if you want)

yeah, I have no problem with passing legislation to make Healthcare more affordable. Most of the measures dont even require expanding the Govmt.

As far as Universal Insurance Coverage:
Make the changes necessary to reduce costs.
Cover through existing, but streamlined, Medicare/aide programs the old, chronically ill, and the children of the poor
Make private insurace affordable (see above) and empower employers to administer the insurance in effective/efficient ways
For those who are UNWILLING to work. NO govmt handouts. Incentivise people to donate to private charities on a 1:1 deduction basis. For every dollar you giveto charity, 1 dollar comes directly off your bottom line tax bill. This will cover those who are lazy so they arent dying in the streets. At least most of them, we cant have everything now can we?

They are entirely intertwined. Reducing costs requires us to get people taking care of themselves. Preventive maintenance works. It keeps people working. It keeps that on the job. It helps them live longer, have healthier babies and basically be less of a burden. Preventive care requires universal care.

The government option is just an option. If private insurers put a good product at a fair price, they have no concern with competition. FedEx and UPS aren't struggling. Hell, water is given away for just about nothing, straight from the tap, and people still go to the store to buy it. Government competition hasn't proven to be stifling. Insurance companies have stifled competition for years. It's time we stop allowing it.

I think we are close on an accord. We disagree on the Govmt option but that is OK. You still havent addressed my "hobo with cancer" question. Or will you rescind your statement that "No one is promising FREE healthcare"

Dude, seriously, if you can't read then this isn't the forum for you. I addressed it. Other people addressed it. This is what's wrong with our education system. People are lazy. You're exactly what you're complaining about. You even replied to my point on it. The "hobo" has coverage today. There is already free healthcare for the destitute. This is what is wrong with some Americans. You think you're entitled to respect for ideas and opinions, no matter how stupid they are or how uneducated their foundation. Your "hobo with cancer" question is based on ignorance. Your "free healthcare" comparison thread was pretty much a study in misunderstanding what is going on in America today.

You want no coddling? Well there it is plain as day. How ya feeling now? Aren't you happy I'm not coddling you? Aren't you feeling more motivated to be educated?