US/Obama Healthcare Plan Consolidated MEGA-THREAD

[Sumamba Buwhan]

Well the government can't do anything right, so that is why they are going to be so extremely successful at running an affordable public insurance plan that it will drive all of the economic geniuses currently running private health insurance programs into the ground.

[Sibirsky]

Because of the shortcomings of the privately-funded and deregulated insurence industy, my grandmother died of easily treatable bone cancer. I am in complete and total support of government provided and regulated healthcare.

And Sibirsky if people do start to go to the government more then the corps it just means corps are bad at providing service and I know you want to protect the corps but you know if they don't change there out of here.

They will go because it will be cheaper and they are either unable, or not willing to pay for the more expensive private insurance.

[Sibirsky]

As an unemployed, and thanks to that uninsured, American who voted for Obama and still staunchly support him I have to say that the naysayers in my country only manage to demonstrate their selfishness and callus outlook as well as a lack of respect for the less fortunate citizens of their country. And people wonder why the US isn't 1st in the world for "Number 1 place to live" when our homeless population is growing exponentially.

80% of new jobs (historically) are created by small businesses. What has Obama done for them? He raised their taxes. He is burdening them with future tax increases. He is proposing legislation that will increase their costs. He, my friend, is trying very hard (unintentionally I hope) to make it very difficult for you to find a job. Unless you decide to work for the government.

I dare you to prove any of that.

Do you live on the moon?

Over the past decade, small business net job creation fluctuated between 60 and 80 percent.

http://www.smallbusinessnotes.com/about ... wjobs.html

Future tax increases will be required to pay for all this borrowing. Cap-and-trade will increase costs.

[Buxtahatche]

Still wondering if any of the idiots in Washington notice that every time they start talking about screwing with health care, their numbers get WORSE... especially the ones that are pushing the hardest and listening the least?

But then again, Washington is just as disconnected from the populace which the lord over as Rome ever was... and Washington will face the same fall- sooner rather than later if they do not stop running the country bankrupt. As much as bastard as he was, Wallace was right- there's not a dime's difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Both want to rob you; they just use different excuses.

[Sibirsky]

:palm:
The right for all to have access to health care is of course evil.
The fact that when your job fire you for making profit and that you lose all possibility of health is right, what is an human life compared to profit ?
Of course people who are paid a misery or were fired because their entreprise is relocated in china are uggly lazzy parasites.
Yes if you are poor, it is your fault.
Being fired, disabled only happen to others, to thoses who desserve it, then why the neeed of an health care ?
Freedom is the right to have poors in a rich country .
To not be socialist, ( what an uggly word) it is the holly duty that thoses who have luck and money keep it, after all all good christian know that never jesus asked for charity and sharing, he was supporting the merchants of the ^temple.
Yes, poor are uggly lazy bums, what do they have to offert else their work? We all know that a corporation only need people who own wall street actions, who is fool enougth to say that a corporation cant exist without workers?
If you are poor , it is your fault, if you dont accept to be paid 1,5 dollars a day when ethiopian survive weeks with this, yes you dont desserve any right. If could not be Ceo, enginieer, owner,; it is your fault, a country dont need workers, and as we all know there is ceo jobs for everyone.
Only a bad patriot can think can equality, solidarity, fraternity are the right values, no we all know that egoism, profit and greed are what make a nation be great.

Nobody said it was evil. We just want a free market solution. Put the patient in control. Control costs. Nobody accused the poor of being lazy.

I want insurers to be able to compete across state lines. I want long term catastrophic health insurance with terms of 10 years or more. I want tort reform. I want Health Savings Accounts for everyone. That will limit costs. I don't want mandates for employer provided insurance. I do not have a problem with employers providing the benefit however. I don't want mandates for certain coverage.

[Sibirsky]

Still wondering if any of the idiots in Washington notice that every time they start talking about screwing with health care, their numbers get WORSE... especially the ones that are pushing the hardest and listening the least?

But then again, Washington is just as disconnected from the populace which the lord over as Rome ever was... and Washington will face the same fall- sooner rather than later if they do not stop running the country bankrupt. As much as bastard as he was, Wallace was right- there's not a dime's difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Both want to rob you; they just use different excuses.

I am afraid it is already too late. Over the coming decades the standard of living will decline by 25% or more. More if cap and trade is passed.

[Teccor]

I'm going to make this REAL simple and to the point, just for all you Liberals and Pro-Socialists out there.

The government having more control over the people is a BAD thing.

The government controlling healthcare means they will have more control over the people.

Why does everyone say it's "better because it's free". How the hell is it free? The government pays for it, but where does the money come from? Taxpayers. Who pays taxes? Well, if Obama gets his way, only people that actually DESERVE money will be taxed, while those who do nothing but watch TV and file medicare reports will have their lives payed for by tax money.

Are Medicare and Medicaid good things? Yes

Have they been abused out the ass by lazy, useless morons? Yes

Should it be Abolished? No. But it should be SEVERELY limited.

To Recap: The government, any government, controlling any aspect of the private sector is just asking for some hotshot totalitarian leader to get into office and turn the U.S. into a nation with a Rich government, poor citizens, and no freedoms.

My Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56

[Sibirsky]

I'm going to make this REAL simple and to the point, just for all you Liberals and Pro-Socialists out there.

The government having more control over the people is a BAD thing.

The government controlling healthcare means they will have more control over the people.

Why does everyone say it's "better because it's free". How the hell is it free? The government pays for it, but where does the money come from? Taxpayers. Who pays taxes? Well, if Obama gets his way, only people that actually DESERVE money will be taxed, while those who do nothing but watch TV and file medicare reports will have their lives payed for by tax money.

Are Medicare and Medicaid good things? Yes

Have they been abused out the ass by lazy, useless morons? Yes

Should it be Abolished? No. But it should be SEVERELY limited.

To Recap: The government, any government, controlling any aspect of the private sector is just asking for some hotshot totalitarian leader to get into office and turn the U.S. into a nation with a Rich government, poor citizens, and no freedoms.

My Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56

Medicare should be abolished. It is a program for the elderly. If you are elderly and poor, and unable to get coverage on your own, than Medicaid should cover you. Otherwise, buy your own coverage like everybody else. Under current law, in 2021 Bill Gates (the richest man in the world) will be eligible for Medicare. Will he use it? Of course not. But should he be eligible? There are many people with means for their own coverage that do use Medicare.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

I'm going to make this REAL simple and to the point, just for all you Liberals and Pro-Socialists out there.

The government having more control over the people is a BAD thing.

The government controlling healthcare means they will have more control over the people.

Why does everyone say it's "better because it's free". How the hell is it free? The government pays for it, but where does the money come from? Taxpayers. Who pays taxes? Well, if Obama gets his way, only people that actually DESERVE money will be taxed, while those who do nothing but watch TV and file medicare reports will have their lives payed for by tax money.

Are Medicare and Medicaid good things? Yes

Have they been abused out the ass by lazy, useless morons? Yes

Should it be Abolished? No. But it should be SEVERELY limited.

To Recap: The government, any government, controlling any aspect of the private sector is just asking for some hotshot totalitarian leader to get into office and turn the U.S. into a nation with a Rich government, poor citizens, and no freedoms.

My Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56

Medicare should be abolished. It is a program for the elderly. If you are elderly and poor, and unable to get coverage on your own, than Medicaid should cover you. Otherwise, buy your own coverage like everybody else. Under current law, in 2021 Bill Gates (the richest man in the world) will be eligible for Medicare. Will he use it? Of course not. But should he be eligible? There are many people with means for their own coverage that do use Medicare.

Damned good point. I think I knew that, but didnt remember until now. Are the two similar enough to line up side by side and compare? Or would that be noodle soup?

[KiloMikeAlpha]

I'm going to make this REAL simple and to the point, just for all you Liberals and Pro-Socialists out there.

The government having more control over the people is a BAD thing.

The government controlling healthcare means they will have more control over the people.

Why does everyone say it's "better because it's free". How the hell is it free? The government pays for it, but where does the money come from? Taxpayers. Who pays taxes? Well, if Obama gets his way, only people that actually DESERVE money will be taxed, while those who do nothing but watch TV and file medicare reports will have their lives payed for by tax money.

Are Medicare and Medicaid good things? Yes

Have they been abused out the ass by lazy, useless morons? Yes

Should it be Abolished? No. But it should be SEVERELY limited.

To Recap: The government, any government, controlling any aspect of the private sector is just asking for some hotshot totalitarian leader to get into office and turn the U.S. into a nation with a Rich government, poor citizens, and no freedoms.

My Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56

QFT. <---- BTW is this OK. Is this a violation of the MEME rule?

[Grave_n_idle]

Still wondering if any of the idiots in Washington notice that every time they start talking about screwing with health care, their numbers get WORSE... especially the ones that are pushing the hardest and listening the least?

But then again, Washington is just as disconnected from the populace which the lord over as Rome ever was... and Washington will face the same fall- sooner rather than later if they do not stop running the country bankrupt. As much as bastard as he was, Wallace was right- there's not a dime's difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Both want to rob you; they just use different excuses.

I am afraid it is already too late. Over the coming decades the standard of living will decline by 25% or more. More if cap and trade is passed.

You're not a fortune-teller. What you can show that happens today, or happened yesterday is fair game.

Your prophecy is cute, but not evidence.


As it happens, I basically agree with you about the decline in standard of living- but possibly not for the same reasons.

[Grave_n_idle]

QFT. <---- BTW is this OK. Is this a violation of the MEME rule?

You'll probably get away with it with no worries, unless it makes up like a quarter of your posts.

[Jocabia]

Nobody said it was evil. We just want a free market solution. Put the patient in control. Control costs. Nobody accused the poor of being lazy.

I want insurers to be able to compete across state lines. I want long term catastrophic health insurance with terms of 10 years or more. I want tort reform. I want Health Savings Accounts for everyone. That will limit costs. I don't want mandates for employer provided insurance. I do not have a problem with employers providing the benefit however. I don't want mandates for certain coverage.

The interest of the market is counter to the interest of the people. Health insurance companies are incentivized to not pay for end of life claims and care. Why? Because those customers will never be profitable again. They are also incentivized to not pay for preventive care because they're not going to pay for the problems it prevents anyway.

The free market works when the goals of the market and the goals of the consumer actually balance out. They don't here. It's not the only place they don't. We don't rely on the free market to safeguard our life and health in any other ways, either. We have cops, fire departments and a military. We already trust the government with our lives.

To the people calling for a free market solution, please, give ONE example where this has worked. There is not a free market healthcare system in the world that does it better than us and there never has been. We've reached the peak of what the free market can do. We should be commended for that, but we should also start looking for systems that have been proven to work better. Unfortunately for insurance companies, every system that has done better has had universal healthcare supplemented or provided by the government.

[Jocabia]

I'm going to make this REAL simple and to the point, just for all you Liberals and Pro-Socialists out there.

The government having more control over the people is a BAD thing.

The government controlling healthcare means they will have more control over the people.

Why does everyone say it's "better because it's free". How the hell is it free? The government pays for it, but where does the money come from? Taxpayers. Who pays taxes? Well, if Obama gets his way, only people that actually DESERVE money will be taxed, while those who do nothing but watch TV and file medicare reports will have their lives payed for by tax money.

Are Medicare and Medicaid good things? Yes

Have they been abused out the ass by lazy, useless morons? Yes

Should it be Abolished? No. But it should be SEVERELY limited.

To Recap: The government, any government, controlling any aspect of the private sector is just asking for some hotshot totalitarian leader to get into office and turn the U.S. into a nation with a Rich government, poor citizens, and no freedoms.

My Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56

What always amuses me about these little rants is that they don't actually address anything important. Do I care if people take advantage of the system? Frankly, no. What I care about is whether or not we would see an improvement in what we pay and our quality of life if we changed our system. And we can look at a number of countries in the world that demonstrate that we can do better. Unfortunately, not a single one of those countries does it better by limiting it's government involvement in healthcare. Quite the opposite actually.

So, now, instead of ranting about how it's all unfair, why don't you point out something ACTUALLY concerning?

[Jocabia]

Medicare should be abolished. It is a program for the elderly. If you are elderly and poor, and unable to get coverage on your own, than Medicaid should cover you. Otherwise, buy your own coverage like everybody else. Under current law, in 2021 Bill Gates (the richest man in the world) will be eligible for Medicare. Will he use it? Of course not. But should he be eligible? There are many people with means for their own coverage that do use Medicare.

It's a program for the elderly because health insurance is a loser on the elderly. No insurance companies would provide at an even remotely affordable rate. The only reason the elderly can get coverage now is because medicare exists. The design of the medicare and medicaid is similar but their purposes are different and that's why they both exist. They're as independently necessary as welfare and unemployment.

[Sibirsky]

Still wondering if any of the idiots in Washington notice that every time they start talking about screwing with health care, their numbers get WORSE... especially the ones that are pushing the hardest and listening the least?

But then again, Washington is just as disconnected from the populace which the lord over as Rome ever was... and Washington will face the same fall- sooner rather than later if they do not stop running the country bankrupt. As much as bastard as he was, Wallace was right- there's not a dime's difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Both want to rob you; they just use different excuses.

I am afraid it is already too late. Over the coming decades the standard of living will decline by 25% or more. More if cap and trade is passed.

You're not a fortune-teller. What you can show that happens today, or happened yesterday is fair game.

Your prophecy is cute, but not evidence.


As it happens, I basically agree with you about the decline in standard of living- but possibly not for the same reasons.

At least I got cute. And the decline of the standard of living. For whatever reason. I do not really care what causes it. I care that it happens. For, I will not be as well off. And my children will be much worse off. And so on.

[Brewdomia]

Still wondering if any of the idiots in Washington notice that every time they start talking about screwing with health care, their numbers get WORSE... especially the ones that are pushing the hardest and listening the least?

But then again, Washington is just as disconnected from the populace which the lord over as Rome ever was... and Washington will face the same fall- sooner rather than later if they do not stop running the country bankrupt. As much as bastard as he was, Wallace was right- there's not a dime's difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Both want to rob you; they just use different excuses.

I am afraid it is already too late. Over the coming decades the standard of living will decline by 25% or more. More if cap and trade is passed.

You're not a fortune-teller. What you can show that happens today, or happened yesterday is fair game.

Your prophecy is cute, but not evidence.


As it happens, I basically agree with you about the decline in standard of living- but possibly not for the same reasons.

At least I got cute. And the decline of the standard of living. For whatever reason. I do not really care what causes it. I care that it happens. For, I will not be as well off. And my children will be much worse off. And so on.

Standard of living? Will decline? May I ask how you know?

[Jocabia]

At least I got cute. And the decline of the standard of living. For whatever reason. I do not really care what causes it. I care that it happens. For, I will not be as well off. And my children will be much worse off. And so on.

How it happens is relevent to how we fix it.

I'd say one of the biggest problems with the solutions that some people are putting forth is that we're required to ignore evidence. We're required to ignore that our current healthcare system is the most expensive in the world and we get less for it. We're supposed to ignore that EVERY more efficient system in history that resulted in improved longevity, quality of life and infant mortality has not been a free market system. I'm sure it's frustrating when the evidence doesn't support the outcome you want, but you can't just throw up your hands and go, "well, I'm guessing it'll have the same result so whatev."

[Peisandros]

What always amuses me about these little rants is that they don't actually address anything important. Do I care if people take advantage of the system? Frankly, no. What I care about is whether or not we would see an improvement in what we pay and our quality of life if we changed our system. And we can look at a number of countries in the world that demonstrate that we can do better. Unfortunately, not a single one of those countries does it better by limiting it's government involvement in healthcare. Quite the opposite actually.

So, now, instead of ranting about how it's all unfair, why don't you point out something ACTUALLY concerning?

As an outsider looking in, I had become worried that Americans had lost all sense. Good to see there is still some out there.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Still wondering if any of the idiots in Washington notice that every time they start talking about screwing with health care, their numbers get WORSE... especially the ones that are pushing the hardest and listening the least?

But then again, Washington is just as disconnected from the populace which the lord over as Rome ever was... and Washington will face the same fall- sooner rather than later if they do not stop running the country bankrupt. As much as bastard as he was, Wallace was right- there's not a dime's difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Both want to rob you; they just use different excuses.

I am afraid it is already too late. Over the coming decades the standard of living will decline by 25% or more. More if cap and trade is passed.

You're not a fortune-teller. What you can show that happens today, or happened yesterday is fair game.

Your prophecy is cute, but not evidence.


As it happens, I basically agree with you about the decline in standard of living- but possibly not for the same reasons.

At least I got cute. And the decline of the standard of living. For whatever reason. I do not really care what causes it. I care that it happens. For, I will not be as well off. And my children will be much worse off. And so on.

Standard of living? Will decline? May I ask how you know?

Lines. Waiting.

When something is free, people will line up for it. Healthcare and the dollars to support it are limited. When you give away a limted resource, you run out.

Try this. Bake 4 dozen cookies. Take them to your local movie store and sit out front with a table. Put 2 dozen cookies on the table and put a "free cookies" sign on the table. Observe. People will come by and grab them by the handfuls, and they will be gone in like 3 minutes.

Now, take away the "free cookie" sign and replace it with "Cookies $2 each". See how long those cookies last.

[Sibirsky]

Nobody said it was evil. We just want a free market solution. Put the patient in control. Control costs. Nobody accused the poor of being lazy.

I want insurers to be able to compete across state lines. I want long term catastrophic health insurance with terms of 10 years or more. I want tort reform. I want Health Savings Accounts for everyone. That will limit costs. I don't want mandates for employer provided insurance. I do not have a problem with employers providing the benefit however. I don't want mandates for certain coverage.

The interest of the market is counter to the interest of the people. Health insurance companies are incentivized to not pay for end of life claims and care. Why? Because those customers will never be profitable again. They are also incentivized to not pay for preventive care because they're not going to pay for the problems it prevents anyway.

The free market works when the goals of the market and the goals of the consumer actually balance out. They don't here. It's not the only place they don't. We don't rely on the free market to safeguard our life and health in any other ways, either. We have cops, fire departments and a military. We already trust the government with our lives.

To the people calling for a free market solution, please, give ONE example where this has worked. There is not a free market healthcare system in the world that does it better than us and there never has been. We've reached the peak of what the free market can do. We should be commended for that, but we should also start looking for systems that have been proven to work better. Unfortunately for insurance companies, every system that has done better has had universal healthcare supplemented or provided by the government.

Capitalism is a relatively new concept. Just because it has not been tried, in a certain segment of the economy, does not mean it cannot work. What we have now, with the job provided, private insurance (for most) and Medicaid (for the poor) and Medicare (for the elderly) is not a free market. Ignoring Medicaid and Medicare (government provided programs), and concentrating on private insurance what do you have? You do not have a free market. The free market requires competition. The average stats has TWO insurers that control 78% of the market. And some states have one insurer that has 80% of the market. The free marker also requires a price system. Prices are on of the most important components of the free market. And, is entirely missing. When someone covered by either one of the government programs, or private insurance, goes to see the doctor, the cost is entirely irrelevant. "Hey doc, how ya doing? Get men every test you got mkay? I ain't the one paying doc, I don't give a flying fuck what it costs."

Any of these completely moronic plans proposed, from both sides of the aisle, do nothing to address costs. All of these proposed plans are a disaster in the making.

Of course, I admit that reform is necessary. Not any of the proposed plans. Much better plans are available. You know, the ones that actually use the free market.

[Peisandros]

Lines. Waiting.

When something is free, people will line up for it. Healthcare and the dollars to support it are limited. When you give away a limted resource, you run out.

Try this. Bake 4 dozen cookies. Take them to your local movie store and sit out front with a table. Put 2 dozen cookies on the table and put a "free cookies" sign on the table. Observe. People will come by and grab them by the handfuls, and they will be gone in like 3 minutes.

Now, take away the "free cookie" sign and replace it with "Cookies $2 each". See how long those cookies last.

Source showing that in countries where healthcare is free, waiting times are longer than they are currently in America?

[Jocabia]

Lines. Waiting.

When something is free, people will line up for it. Healthcare and the dollars to support it are limited. When you give away a limted resource, you run out.

Try this. Bake 4 dozen cookies. Take them to your local movie store and sit out front with a table. Put 2 dozen cookies on the table and put a "free cookies" sign on the table. Observe. People will come by and grab them by the handfuls, and they will be gone in like 3 minutes.

Now, take away the "free cookie" sign and replace it with "Cookies $2 each". See how long those cookies last.

First of all, NO proposal is offering free healthcare. It would help if you started with that understanding, because you're not talking about reality.

Now that we're back to reality, let's actually look at it. Examining the other countries in the world that have engaged in universal healthcare the result is pretty obvious. Yes, there is some waiting for certain services in some places. However, there is an accompanied decrease in cost of services (not to the consumer alone, but overall) and there is an increase in the result.

So tell me why the line is a problem as opposed to the very real people are dying problem we currently have?

[Brewdomia]

Lines. Waiting.

When something is free, people will line up for it. Healthcare and the dollars to support it are limited. When you give away a limted resource, you run out.

Try this. Bake 4 dozen cookies. Take them to your local movie store and sit out front with a table. Put 2 dozen cookies on the table and put a "free cookies" sign on the table. Observe. People will come by and grab them by the handfuls, and they will be gone in like 3 minutes.

Now, take away the "free cookie" sign and replace it with "Cookies $2 each". See how long those cookies last.

For the lines and waiting, this is not going to be Canada where they have banned insurance companies so your argument is mute.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Lines. Waiting.

When something is free, people will line up for it. Healthcare and the dollars to support it are limited. When you give away a limted resource, you run out.

Try this. Bake 4 dozen cookies. Take them to your local movie store and sit out front with a table. Put 2 dozen cookies on the table and put a "free cookies" sign on the table. Observe. People will come by and grab them by the handfuls, and they will be gone in like 3 minutes.

Now, take away the "free cookie" sign and replace it with "Cookies $2 each". See how long those cookies last.

Source showing that in countries where healthcare is free, waiting times are longer than they are currently in America?

man. going down this SAME road got me banned in July.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/qual/acc ... ex-eng.php
here is the CANADA source. I'll find more
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/06/can ... marks.html
"Based on the UK's National Health Service target of 18-weeks from initial referral by a family physician to start of treatment, a majority of Canadian patients had wait times that exceeded the 18-week target. Access is particularly poor for: ophthalmology (adult strabismus), obstetrics and gynecology, gastroenterology, plastic surgery and orthopedics."

Do I really need to go on?