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by Sumamba Buwhan » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:48 pm
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by Sibirsky » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:54 pm
Surote wrote:Bikonria wrote:Because of the shortcomings of the privately-funded and deregulated insurence industy, my grandmother died of easily treatable bone cancer. I am in complete and total support of government provided and regulated healthcare.
And Sibirsky if people do start to go to the government more then the corps it just means corps are bad at providing service and I know you want to protect the corps but you know if they don't change there out of here.
by Sibirsky » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:58 pm
The_pantless_hero wrote:Sibirsky wrote:Trailers wrote:As an unemployed, and thanks to that uninsured, American who voted for Obama and still staunchly support him I have to say that the naysayers in my country only manage to demonstrate their selfishness and callus outlook as well as a lack of respect for the less fortunate citizens of their country. And people wonder why the US isn't 1st in the world for "Number 1 place to live" when our homeless population is growing exponentially.
80% of new jobs (historically) are created by small businesses. What has Obama done for them? He raised their taxes. He is burdening them with future tax increases. He is proposing legislation that will increase their costs. He, my friend, is trying very hard (unintentionally I hope) to make it very difficult for you to find a job. Unless you decide to work for the government.
I dare you to prove any of that.
Over the past decade, small business net job creation fluctuated between 60 and 80 percent.
by Buxtahatche » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:00 pm
by Sibirsky » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:04 pm
Chocolatemouse wrote::palm:
The right for all to have access to health care is of course evil.
The fact that when your job fire you for making profit and that you lose all possibility of health is right, what is an human life compared to profit ?
Of course people who are paid a misery or were fired because their entreprise is relocated in china are uggly lazzy parasites.
Yes if you are poor, it is your fault.
Being fired, disabled only happen to others, to thoses who desserve it, then why the neeed of an health care ?
Freedom is the right to have poors in a rich country .
To not be socialist, ( what an uggly word) it is the holly duty that thoses who have luck and money keep it, after all all good christian know that never jesus asked for charity and sharing, he was supporting the merchants of the ^temple.
Yes, poor are uggly lazy bums, what do they have to offert else their work? We all know that a corporation only need people who own wall street actions, who is fool enougth to say that a corporation cant exist without workers?
If you are poor , it is your fault, if you dont accept to be paid 1,5 dollars a day when ethiopian survive weeks with this, yes you dont desserve any right. If could not be Ceo, enginieer, owner,; it is your fault, a country dont need workers, and as we all know there is ceo jobs for everyone.
Only a bad patriot can think can equality, solidarity, fraternity are the right values, no we all know that egoism, profit and greed are what make a nation be great.
by Sibirsky » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:06 pm
Buxtahatche wrote:Still wondering if any of the idiots in Washington notice that every time they start talking about screwing with health care, their numbers get WORSE... especially the ones that are pushing the hardest and listening the least?
But then again, Washington is just as disconnected from the populace which the lord over as Rome ever was... and Washington will face the same fall- sooner rather than later if they do not stop running the country bankrupt. As much as bastard as he was, Wallace was right- there's not a dime's difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Both want to rob you; they just use different excuses.
by Teccor » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:16 pm
Zetion wrote:Fuck PETA, my meat tastes better knwoing they dont want me to eat it.
Marquesan wrote:Furthermore, a news flash. This just in from the department of pancakes: F*ck waffles.
by Sibirsky » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:32 pm
Teccor wrote:I'm going to make this REAL simple and to the point, just for all you Liberals and Pro-Socialists out there.
The government having more control over the people is a BAD thing.
The government controlling healthcare means they will have more control over the people.
Why does everyone say it's "better because it's free". How the hell is it free? The government pays for it, but where does the money come from? Taxpayers. Who pays taxes? Well, if Obama gets his way, only people that actually DESERVE money will be taxed, while those who do nothing but watch TV and file medicare reports will have their lives payed for by tax money.
Are Medicare and Medicaid good things? Yes
Have they been abused out the ass by lazy, useless morons? Yes
Should it be Abolished? No. But it should be SEVERELY limited.
To Recap: The government, any government, controlling any aspect of the private sector is just asking for some hotshot totalitarian leader to get into office and turn the U.S. into a nation with a Rich government, poor citizens, and no freedoms.
My Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56
by KiloMikeAlpha » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:38 pm
Sibirsky wrote:Teccor wrote:I'm going to make this REAL simple and to the point, just for all you Liberals and Pro-Socialists out there.
The government having more control over the people is a BAD thing.
The government controlling healthcare means they will have more control over the people.
Why does everyone say it's "better because it's free". How the hell is it free? The government pays for it, but where does the money come from? Taxpayers. Who pays taxes? Well, if Obama gets his way, only people that actually DESERVE money will be taxed, while those who do nothing but watch TV and file medicare reports will have their lives payed for by tax money.
Are Medicare and Medicaid good things? Yes
Have they been abused out the ass by lazy, useless morons? Yes
Should it be Abolished? No. But it should be SEVERELY limited.
To Recap: The government, any government, controlling any aspect of the private sector is just asking for some hotshot totalitarian leader to get into office and turn the U.S. into a nation with a Rich government, poor citizens, and no freedoms.
My Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56
Medicare should be abolished. It is a program for the elderly. If you are elderly and poor, and unable to get coverage on your own, than Medicaid should cover you. Otherwise, buy your own coverage like everybody else. Under current law, in 2021 Bill Gates (the richest man in the world) will be eligible for Medicare. Will he use it? Of course not. But should he be eligible? There are many people with means for their own coverage that do use Medicare.
by KiloMikeAlpha » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:39 pm
Teccor wrote:I'm going to make this REAL simple and to the point, just for all you Liberals and Pro-Socialists out there.
The government having more control over the people is a BAD thing.
The government controlling healthcare means they will have more control over the people.
Why does everyone say it's "better because it's free". How the hell is it free? The government pays for it, but where does the money come from? Taxpayers. Who pays taxes? Well, if Obama gets his way, only people that actually DESERVE money will be taxed, while those who do nothing but watch TV and file medicare reports will have their lives payed for by tax money.
Are Medicare and Medicaid good things? Yes
Have they been abused out the ass by lazy, useless morons? Yes
Should it be Abolished? No. But it should be SEVERELY limited.
To Recap: The government, any government, controlling any aspect of the private sector is just asking for some hotshot totalitarian leader to get into office and turn the U.S. into a nation with a Rich government, poor citizens, and no freedoms.
My Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56
by Grave_n_idle » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:06 pm
Sibirsky wrote:Buxtahatche wrote:Still wondering if any of the idiots in Washington notice that every time they start talking about screwing with health care, their numbers get WORSE... especially the ones that are pushing the hardest and listening the least?
But then again, Washington is just as disconnected from the populace which the lord over as Rome ever was... and Washington will face the same fall- sooner rather than later if they do not stop running the country bankrupt. As much as bastard as he was, Wallace was right- there's not a dime's difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Both want to rob you; they just use different excuses.
I am afraid it is already too late. Over the coming decades the standard of living will decline by 25% or more. More if cap and trade is passed.
by Grave_n_idle » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:08 pm
KiloMikeAlpha wrote:QFT. <---- BTW is this OK. Is this a violation of the MEME rule?
by Jocabia » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:06 pm
Sibirsky wrote:Nobody said it was evil. We just want a free market solution. Put the patient in control. Control costs. Nobody accused the poor of being lazy.
I want insurers to be able to compete across state lines. I want long term catastrophic health insurance with terms of 10 years or more. I want tort reform. I want Health Savings Accounts for everyone. That will limit costs. I don't want mandates for employer provided insurance. I do not have a problem with employers providing the benefit however. I don't want mandates for certain coverage.
by Jocabia » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:12 pm
Teccor wrote:I'm going to make this REAL simple and to the point, just for all you Liberals and Pro-Socialists out there.
The government having more control over the people is a BAD thing.
The government controlling healthcare means they will have more control over the people.
Why does everyone say it's "better because it's free". How the hell is it free? The government pays for it, but where does the money come from? Taxpayers. Who pays taxes? Well, if Obama gets his way, only people that actually DESERVE money will be taxed, while those who do nothing but watch TV and file medicare reports will have their lives payed for by tax money.
Are Medicare and Medicaid good things? Yes
Have they been abused out the ass by lazy, useless morons? Yes
Should it be Abolished? No. But it should be SEVERELY limited.
To Recap: The government, any government, controlling any aspect of the private sector is just asking for some hotshot totalitarian leader to get into office and turn the U.S. into a nation with a Rich government, poor citizens, and no freedoms.
My Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56
by Jocabia » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:15 pm
Sibirsky wrote:Medicare should be abolished. It is a program for the elderly. If you are elderly and poor, and unable to get coverage on your own, than Medicaid should cover you. Otherwise, buy your own coverage like everybody else. Under current law, in 2021 Bill Gates (the richest man in the world) will be eligible for Medicare. Will he use it? Of course not. But should he be eligible? There are many people with means for their own coverage that do use Medicare.
by Sibirsky » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:32 pm
Grave_n_idle wrote:Sibirsky wrote:Buxtahatche wrote:Still wondering if any of the idiots in Washington notice that every time they start talking about screwing with health care, their numbers get WORSE... especially the ones that are pushing the hardest and listening the least?
But then again, Washington is just as disconnected from the populace which the lord over as Rome ever was... and Washington will face the same fall- sooner rather than later if they do not stop running the country bankrupt. As much as bastard as he was, Wallace was right- there's not a dime's difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Both want to rob you; they just use different excuses.
I am afraid it is already too late. Over the coming decades the standard of living will decline by 25% or more. More if cap and trade is passed.
You're not a fortune-teller. What you can show that happens today, or happened yesterday is fair game.
Your prophecy is cute, but not evidence.
As it happens, I basically agree with you about the decline in standard of living- but possibly not for the same reasons.
by Brewdomia » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:35 pm
Sibirsky wrote:Grave_n_idle wrote:Sibirsky wrote:Buxtahatche wrote:Still wondering if any of the idiots in Washington notice that every time they start talking about screwing with health care, their numbers get WORSE... especially the ones that are pushing the hardest and listening the least?
But then again, Washington is just as disconnected from the populace which the lord over as Rome ever was... and Washington will face the same fall- sooner rather than later if they do not stop running the country bankrupt. As much as bastard as he was, Wallace was right- there's not a dime's difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Both want to rob you; they just use different excuses.
I am afraid it is already too late. Over the coming decades the standard of living will decline by 25% or more. More if cap and trade is passed.
You're not a fortune-teller. What you can show that happens today, or happened yesterday is fair game.
Your prophecy is cute, but not evidence.
As it happens, I basically agree with you about the decline in standard of living- but possibly not for the same reasons.
At least I got cute. And the decline of the standard of living. For whatever reason. I do not really care what causes it. I care that it happens. For, I will not be as well off. And my children will be much worse off. And so on.
by Jocabia » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:36 pm
Sibirsky wrote:At least I got cute. And the decline of the standard of living. For whatever reason. I do not really care what causes it. I care that it happens. For, I will not be as well off. And my children will be much worse off. And so on.
by Peisandros » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:37 pm
Jocabia wrote:What always amuses me about these little rants is that they don't actually address anything important. Do I care if people take advantage of the system? Frankly, no. What I care about is whether or not we would see an improvement in what we pay and our quality of life if we changed our system. And we can look at a number of countries in the world that demonstrate that we can do better. Unfortunately, not a single one of those countries does it better by limiting it's government involvement in healthcare. Quite the opposite actually.
So, now, instead of ranting about how it's all unfair, why don't you point out something ACTUALLY concerning?
by KiloMikeAlpha » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:41 pm
Brewdomia wrote:Sibirsky wrote:Grave_n_idle wrote:Sibirsky wrote:Buxtahatche wrote:Still wondering if any of the idiots in Washington notice that every time they start talking about screwing with health care, their numbers get WORSE... especially the ones that are pushing the hardest and listening the least?
But then again, Washington is just as disconnected from the populace which the lord over as Rome ever was... and Washington will face the same fall- sooner rather than later if they do not stop running the country bankrupt. As much as bastard as he was, Wallace was right- there's not a dime's difference between a Democrat and a Republican. Both want to rob you; they just use different excuses.
I am afraid it is already too late. Over the coming decades the standard of living will decline by 25% or more. More if cap and trade is passed.
You're not a fortune-teller. What you can show that happens today, or happened yesterday is fair game.
Your prophecy is cute, but not evidence.
As it happens, I basically agree with you about the decline in standard of living- but possibly not for the same reasons.
At least I got cute. And the decline of the standard of living. For whatever reason. I do not really care what causes it. I care that it happens. For, I will not be as well off. And my children will be much worse off. And so on.
Standard of living? Will decline? May I ask how you know?
by Sibirsky » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:44 pm
Jocabia wrote:Sibirsky wrote:Nobody said it was evil. We just want a free market solution. Put the patient in control. Control costs. Nobody accused the poor of being lazy.
I want insurers to be able to compete across state lines. I want long term catastrophic health insurance with terms of 10 years or more. I want tort reform. I want Health Savings Accounts for everyone. That will limit costs. I don't want mandates for employer provided insurance. I do not have a problem with employers providing the benefit however. I don't want mandates for certain coverage.
The interest of the market is counter to the interest of the people. Health insurance companies are incentivized to not pay for end of life claims and care. Why? Because those customers will never be profitable again. They are also incentivized to not pay for preventive care because they're not going to pay for the problems it prevents anyway.
The free market works when the goals of the market and the goals of the consumer actually balance out. They don't here. It's not the only place they don't. We don't rely on the free market to safeguard our life and health in any other ways, either. We have cops, fire departments and a military. We already trust the government with our lives.
To the people calling for a free market solution, please, give ONE example where this has worked. There is not a free market healthcare system in the world that does it better than us and there never has been. We've reached the peak of what the free market can do. We should be commended for that, but we should also start looking for systems that have been proven to work better. Unfortunately for insurance companies, every system that has done better has had universal healthcare supplemented or provided by the government.
by Peisandros » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:44 pm
KiloMikeAlpha wrote:Lines. Waiting.
When something is free, people will line up for it. Healthcare and the dollars to support it are limited. When you give away a limted resource, you run out.
Try this. Bake 4 dozen cookies. Take them to your local movie store and sit out front with a table. Put 2 dozen cookies on the table and put a "free cookies" sign on the table. Observe. People will come by and grab them by the handfuls, and they will be gone in like 3 minutes.
Now, take away the "free cookie" sign and replace it with "Cookies $2 each". See how long those cookies last.
by Jocabia » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:45 pm
KiloMikeAlpha wrote:Lines. Waiting.
When something is free, people will line up for it. Healthcare and the dollars to support it are limited. When you give away a limted resource, you run out.
Try this. Bake 4 dozen cookies. Take them to your local movie store and sit out front with a table. Put 2 dozen cookies on the table and put a "free cookies" sign on the table. Observe. People will come by and grab them by the handfuls, and they will be gone in like 3 minutes.
Now, take away the "free cookie" sign and replace it with "Cookies $2 each". See how long those cookies last.
by Brewdomia » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:46 pm
KiloMikeAlpha wrote:Lines. Waiting.
When something is free, people will line up for it. Healthcare and the dollars to support it are limited. When you give away a limted resource, you run out.
Try this. Bake 4 dozen cookies. Take them to your local movie store and sit out front with a table. Put 2 dozen cookies on the table and put a "free cookies" sign on the table. Observe. People will come by and grab them by the handfuls, and they will be gone in like 3 minutes.
Now, take away the "free cookie" sign and replace it with "Cookies $2 each". See how long those cookies last.
by KiloMikeAlpha » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:47 pm
Peisandros wrote:KiloMikeAlpha wrote:Lines. Waiting.
When something is free, people will line up for it. Healthcare and the dollars to support it are limited. When you give away a limted resource, you run out.
Try this. Bake 4 dozen cookies. Take them to your local movie store and sit out front with a table. Put 2 dozen cookies on the table and put a "free cookies" sign on the table. Observe. People will come by and grab them by the handfuls, and they will be gone in like 3 minutes.
Now, take away the "free cookie" sign and replace it with "Cookies $2 each". See how long those cookies last.
Source showing that in countries where healthcare is free, waiting times are longer than they are currently in America?
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