NationStates

Under the terms of the Treaty of Sèvres, the territories that had historically belonged to Greece and Armenia, and still had a majority of each ethnic group, was returned to these to countries, while the areas that had a majority of ethnic kurds was reserved for a future Kurdistan.

But the new turkish supremacists government would not allow this, and thus in a murderous rampage they conquered these territories. Afterwards they ethnically cleansed these areas via genocide and forced removals.

In order to right these wrongs, should't Turkey return these territories to the countries they rightfully belong to?

Arilandon wrote:Under the terms of the Treaty of Sèvres, the territories that had historically belonged to Greece and Armenia, and still had a majority of each ethnic group, was returned to these to countries, while the areas that had a majority of ethnic kurds was reserved for a future Kurdistan.

(Image)

But the new turkish supremacists government would not allow this, and thus in a murderous rampage they conquered these territories. Afterwards they ethnically cleansed these areas via genocide and forced removals.

In order to right these wrongs, should't Turkey return these territories to the countries they rightfully belong to?

Ok, I'll admit I'm not familiar with this particular event.

What year was this?

Galloism wrote:

Arilandon wrote:Under the terms of the Treaty of Sèvres, the territories that had historically belonged to Greece and Armenia, and still had a majority of each ethnic group, was returned to these to countries, while the areas that had a majority of ethnic kurds was reserved for a future Kurdistan.

(Image)

But the new turkish supremacists government would not allow this, and thus in a murderous rampage they conquered these territories. Afterwards they ethnically cleansed these areas via genocide and forced removals.

In order to right these wrongs, should't Turkey return these territories to the countries they rightfully belong to?

Ok, I'll admit I'm not familiar with this particular event.

What year was this?

The Treaty of Sevres?

It was signed in 1920, I believe. It was among the peace treaties of the GODDAMN FIRST WORLD WAR.

Really, it's been almost 100 years now. No, they shouldn't.

EDIT: Though they shouldn't deny the people of these zones a plebiscite if they want one either. But then again, the Kurdish don't really want to separate from Turkey.

Galloism wrote:

Arilandon wrote:Under the terms of the Treaty of Sèvres, the territories that had historically belonged to Greece and Armenia, and still had a majority of each ethnic group, was returned to these to countries, while the areas that had a majority of ethnic kurds was reserved for a future Kurdistan.

(Image)

But the new turkish supremacists government would not allow this, and thus in a murderous rampage they conquered these territories. Afterwards they ethnically cleansed these areas via genocide and forced removals.

In order to right these wrongs, should't Turkey return these territories to the countries they rightfully belong to?

Ok, I'll admit I'm not familiar with this particular event.

What year was this?

1915-1923

Arilandon wrote:

Galloism wrote:Ok, I'll admit I'm not familiar with this particular event.

What year was this?

1915-1923

Yeah... no.

90 years later, when everyone involved in the original event is now dead, and everyone is used to the government they have?

No.

Galloism wrote:

Arilandon wrote:1915-1923

Yeah... no.

90 years later, when everyone involved in the original event is now dead, and everyone is used to the government they have?

No.

Off course there is no one left, because they were all murdered. And there are still some left who are still oppresed by the turkish government.

Arilandon wrote:In order to right these wrongs

Don't know about anyone else, but... i don't know how you go about making right again after you puposefully hunted down and "got rid" of a good few millions of people.

At the risk of being called out with Godwin's Law... would you forgive the german holocaust?

Given that the Treaty of Lausanne supersedes Sevres, no.

Old Koridai wrote:

Arilandon wrote:In order to right these wrongs

Don't know about anyone else, but... i don't know how you go about making right again after you puposefully hunted down and "got rid" of a good few millions of people.

At the risk of being called out with Godwin's Law... would you forgive the german holocaust?

I have and the rest of the world should do so too. There is no reason to be angry and vengefull against the germans, especially since the vast majority of germans were born after world war 2.

Galloism wrote:

Arilandon wrote:1915-1923

Yeah... no.

90 years later, when everyone involved in the original event is now dead, and everyone is used to the government they have?

No.

Just so, and members of one side of my family were directly affected by the 1915 Armenian genocide. It's too late.

And anyway, Arilandon, what do you propose to do with all the Turks living in those areas now? A bit of ethnic cleansing in retribution?

Galloism wrote:

Arilandon wrote:1915-1923

Yeah... no.

90 years later, when everyone involved in the original event is now dead, and everyone is used to the government they have?

No.

No, that would be like asking if Israel should go back to certain borders... wait, many would want that

Or if the USA should give up parts of the southwest and give it back to Mexico... well, there are groups advocating that...

Veblenia wrote:Given that the Treaty of Lausanne supersedes Sevres, no.

The Treaty of Lausanne was forced on the signers by the turkish government.

Question: how can you return what has never been owned by the one you're returning it to? The Greek territories could be returned, the Armenian territories were never Armenian, or at least mostly not owned by an Armenian stat.

And on the topic of forced removals: the Greek government not only approved of it but also exchanged a large number of Muslim, though not necessarily Turkish or even Turkic, people with Turkey.

But seriously, is this all you are willing to discuss?

Arilandon wrote:

Veblenia wrote:Given that the Treaty of Lausanne supersedes Sevres, no.

The Treaty of Lausanne was forced on the signers by the turkish government.

Really? The Turks forced Great Britain, Italy and Japan to sign? That's a mighty big gun they were holding.

Sucrati wrote:

Galloism wrote:Yeah... no.

90 years later, when everyone involved in the original event is now dead, and everyone is used to the government they have?

No.

No, that would be like asking if Israel should go back to certain borders... wait, many would want that

Or if the USA should give up parts of the southwest and give it back to Mexico... well, there are groups advocating that...

And I rightly call all such notions without merit and blindingly absurd.

Just getting Turkey to actually acknowledge the Armenian Genocide is an impossible task. Now you want to rip their country apart? What the fuck will that accomplish? First of all, you'd need to rip a sizable chunk out of the entire Middle East in order to create a Kurdistan big enough to protect itself from SYRIA, let alone Turkey (and pretty much every single Muslim-majority country in the area), so giving the Kurds that tiny little chunk isn't going to accomplish much. Greece is in such shitty shape economically that adding MORE territory would probably make things WORSE, let alone pissing off the Turkish enough to say "fuck that noise" and invade. Armenia is just too damn small to protect itself, and the last thing we need is Russia pulling the same stunt they did in Georgia.

Farnhamia wrote:

Galloism wrote:Yeah... no.

90 years later, when everyone involved in the original event is now dead, and everyone is used to the government they have?

No.

Just so, and members of one side of my family were directly affected by the 1915 Armenian genocide. It's too late.

And anyway, Arilandon, what do you propose to do with all the Turks living in those areas now? A bit of ethnic cleansing in retribution?

Well for a start the turkish govermnent could
1. stop the discrimination that is still taking place
2. give a right of return for refugees and they descendants.

Hardened Pyrokinetics wrote:Just getting Turkey to actually acknowledge the Armenian Genocide is an impossible task. Now you want to rip their country apart? What the fuck will that accomplish? First of all, you'd need to rip a sizable chunk out of the entire Middle East in order to create a Kurdistan big enough to protect itself from SYRIA, let alone Turkey (and pretty much every single Muslim-majority country in the area), so giving the Kurds that tiny little chunk isn't going to accomplish much. Greece is in such shitty shape economically that adding MORE territory would probably make things WORSE, let alone pissing off the Turkish enough to say "fuck that noise" and invade. Armenia is just too damn small to protect itself, and the last thing we need is Russia pulling the same stunt they did in Georgia.

And the Turks and Armenians are actually talking after 90 years, so let's not screw things up. I doubt the Turkish government will ever acknowledge the genocide but one can hope.

Treaty of Lausanne overruled it.

Farnhamia wrote:

Arilandon wrote:The Treaty of Lausanne was forced on the signers by the turkish government.

Really? The Turks forced Great Britain, Italy and Japan to sign? That's a mighty big gun they were holding.

Maybe they bought one of these after the war?

http://www.vincelewis.net/dora.html

Arilandon wrote:

Farnhamia wrote:Just so, and members of one side of my family were directly affected by the 1915 Armenian genocide. It's too late.

And anyway, Arilandon, what do you propose to do with all the Turks living in those areas now? A bit of ethnic cleansing in retribution?

Well for a start the turkish govermnent could
1. stop the discrimination that is still taking place
2. give a right of return for refugees and they descendants.

1. What discrimination?
2. Do they want to go back?

And I have to ask, what's your interest in the question? Besides your burning desire for justice, of course.

Leepaidamba wrote:Question: how can you return what has never been owned by the one you're returning it to? The Greek territories could be returned, the Armenian territories were never Armenian, or at least mostly not owned by an Armenian stat.

And on the topic of forced removals: the Greek government not only approved of it but also exchanged a large number of Muslim, though not necessarily Turkish or even Turkic, people with Turkey.

But seriously, is this all you are willing to discuss?

1. it was according to an international treaty signed by the previous "owners" and armenia
2. it was clearly forced on the greek government, they had just been at war with turkey and needed peace and good realations. Also 500 thousand muslims for 2,5 million greeks does't seem like a fair deal
3. i dont understand the question

Arilandon wrote:

Leepaidamba wrote:Question: how can you return what has never been owned by the one you're returning it to? The Greek territories could be returned, the Armenian territories were never Armenian, or at least mostly not owned by an Armenian stat.

And on the topic of forced removals: the Greek government not only approved of it but also exchanged a large number of Muslim, though not necessarily Turkish or even Turkic, people with Turkey.

But seriously, is this all you are willing to discuss?

1. it was according to an international treaty signed by the previous "owners" and armenia
2. it was clearly forced on the greek government, they had just been at war with turkey and needed peace and good realations. Also 500 thousand muslims for 2,5 million greeks does't seem like a fair deal
3. i dont understand the question

So the Greeks bought peace and good relations after getting their butts kicked by the Turks. Funny, that. So, what are you upset about, that one Muslim was valued as equal to five Greeks? Maybe 500 thousand is all the Greeks had.

Farnhamia wrote:

Arilandon wrote:Well for a start the turkish govermnent could
1. stop the discrimination that is still taking place
2. give a right of return for refugees and they descendants.

1. What discrimination?
2. Do they want to go back?

And I have to ask, what's your interest in the question? Besides your burning desire for justice, of course.

1.

wikipedia wrote:The Greek minority continues to encounter problems relating to education and property rights. A 1971 law nationalized religious high schools, and closed the Halki seminary on Istanbul's Heybeli Island which had trained Orthodox clergy since the 19th century. The latest outrage is the vandalism of the Greek cemetery on Imbros on October 29, 2010. In this context, problems affecting the Greek minority on the islands of Imbros and Tenedos continue to be reported to the European Commission.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Turkey
2. Some might, i have seen interwievs with people who wanted to
3. Noting besides my "burning desire for justice" like many people who advocate rights for palestinians and other minorities

Farnhamia wrote:

Arilandon wrote:1. it was according to an international treaty signed by the previous "owners" and armenia
2. it was clearly forced on the greek government, they had just been at war with turkey and needed peace and good realations. Also 500 thousand muslims for 2,5 million greeks does't seem like a fair deal
3. i dont understand the question

So the Greeks bought peace and good relations after getting their butts kicked by the Turks. Funny, that. So, what are you upset about, that one Muslim was valued as equal to five Greeks? Maybe 500 thousand is all the Greeks had.

Why is that funny? I'm upset about people having lived for maybe more than 1000-2000 years in an area being forcefully removed, by principal i'm allways oppesed to forced removals