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Should Turkey return the territories it has stolen?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should Turkey return the territories it has stolen from Greece, Armenia and Kurdistan?

Yes, but more than in the Treaty of Sèvres
14
10%
Yes
28
19%
Only allow the creation of an independant kurdish state
32
22%
No
62
42%
Other
11
7%
 
Total votes : 147

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Galloism
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Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:21 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Cosmopoles wrote:
The Treaty of Sevres was forced on the defeated Ottomans. If you are going to insist that treaties forced on a defeated party shouldn't be honoured then why should Turkey honour Sevres?

Oh, man, if they invalidate the Third Treaty of San Ildefonso, Imosgone and I and a few others are going to become Spanish subjects.

Heck, go back one treaty, and I'm French.

I'm going to start acting French, and begin the movement to give the land back to the French.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:22 pm

Galloism wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Oh, man, if they invalidate the Third Treaty of San Ildefonso, Imosgone and I and a few others are going to become Spanish subjects.

Heck, go back one treaty, and I'm French.

I'm going to start acting French, and begin the movement to give the land back to the French.

Your Spanish wife might not care for that.
Wash Your Damned Hands!

Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Cameroi
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Cameroi » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:23 pm

should is such a utopian word. and people accuse me of being utopian. everyone "should" return every place it has stolen from it earliest inhabitants. if that were even possible. certainly wherever it is.
some place, like with turkey and kurdistan it might actually BE possible. (or with the u.s. and hawaii, puerto rico and 'american' samoa, and china and tibet)

the problem with most places though, is that virtually EVERY modern nation was stolen from somebody, and in most cases more then once.

i don't have a one size fits all answer for everybody, except to suggest that the whole concept of national soverignty is highly over rated.
truth isn't what i say. isn't what you say. isn't what anybody says. truth is what is there, when no one is saying anything.

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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
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Postby Farnhamia » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:23 pm

Arilandon wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:You're the expert on treaties, figure it out.

Somewhere in the former lousiana territory, but where exactly?

It's actually none of your business, is it? Let's just call it the US and leave it at that.
Wash Your Damned Hands!

Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Galloism
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Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:23 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Galloism wrote:Heck, go back one treaty, and I'm French.

I'm going to start acting French, and begin the movement to give the land back to the French.

Your Spanish wife might not care for that.

Acting French, or the movement?
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Tmutarakhan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8345
Founded: Dec 06, 2007
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tmutarakhan » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:24 pm

Keronians wrote: But then again, the Kurdish don't really want to separate from Turkey.

You are seriously mistaken.
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I am a holy terror to apologists Confederal,
When called upon to source a line, I give citations textual,
And argue about Palestine, and marriage homosexual!


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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:25 pm

Galloism wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Your Spanish wife might not care for that.

Acting French, or the movement?

Either, but then again, she seems to be an open-minded woman, so what do I know? :p
Wash Your Damned Hands!

Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Galloism
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Posts: 69023
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:26 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Galloism wrote:Acting French, or the movement?

Either, but then again, she seems to be an open-minded woman, so what do I know? :p

I'm going to have to practice thinking I'm better than everyone else.

Oh wait... no I don't. 8)
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Hardened Pyrokinetics
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Posts: 7839
Founded: May 31, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Hardened Pyrokinetics » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:27 pm

Galloism wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Your Spanish wife might not care for that.

Acting French, or the movement?

Both?
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North Calaveras
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Posts: 16483
Founded: Mar 22, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby North Calaveras » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:29 pm

Sucrati wrote:
Galloism wrote:Yeah... no.

90 years later, when everyone involved in the original event is now dead, and everyone is used to the government they have?

No.


No, that would be like asking if Israel should go back to certain borders... wait, many would want that

Or if the USA should give up parts of the southwest and give it back to Mexico... well, there are groups advocating that...


Sad part is people will bitch and say Turkey dosn't need to return anything but when it comes to Israel they will jump all over them.
Government: Romanist Ceasarist Dictatorship
Political Themes: Nationalism, Romanticism, Ceasarism, Militarism, Social Liberalism, Cult of Personality
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Angleter
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Founded: Apr 27, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Angleter » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:30 pm

No, since there are very few Greeks or Armenians left in Turkey. Kurdish independence would have to be supported by most Turkish Kurds, and then there'd be the matter of Iraq and Iran's Kurds.

What about the Assyrians? They always get forgotten in these things.
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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:32 pm

Angleter wrote:No, since there are very few Greeks or Armenians left in Turkey. Kurdish independence would have to be supported by most Turkish Kurds, and then there'd be the matter of Iraq and Iran's Kurds.

What about the Assyrians? They always get forgotten in these things.

All 22,000 of them? Yeah, they do.
Wash Your Damned Hands!

Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Buffett and Colbert
Post Czar
 
Posts: 32382
Founded: Oct 05, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Buffett and Colbert » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:33 pm

Considering an active Turkish government never signed that treaty and the fact that it was annulled and replaced, I have no idea why they should.
If the knowledge isn't useful, you haven't found the lesson yet. ~Iniika
You-Gi-Owe wrote:If someone were to ask me about your online persona as a standard of your "date-ability", I'd rate you as "worth investigating further & passionate about beliefs". But, enough of the idle speculation on why you didn't score with the opposite gender.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Clever, but your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me.

His Jedi mind tricks are insignificant compared to the power of Buffy's sex appeal.
Keronians wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:My law class took my virginity. And it was 100% consensual.

I accuse your precious law class of statutory rape.

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Arilandon
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Founded: Jun 15, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Arilandon » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:33 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Arilandon wrote:Somewhere in the former lousiana territory, but where exactly?

It's actually none of your business, is it? Let's just call it the US and leave it at that.

Well i was't even meaning which settlement just which state.

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Buffett and Colbert
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Posts: 32382
Founded: Oct 05, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Buffett and Colbert » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:34 pm

North Calaveras wrote:
Sucrati wrote:
No, that would be like asking if Israel should go back to certain borders... wait, many would want that

Or if the USA should give up parts of the southwest and give it back to Mexico... well, there are groups advocating that...


Sad part is people will bitch and say Turkey dosn't need to return anything but when it comes to Israel they will jump all over them.

There is practically no debate about Turkish borders. There is a clear and marked difference.
If the knowledge isn't useful, you haven't found the lesson yet. ~Iniika
You-Gi-Owe wrote:If someone were to ask me about your online persona as a standard of your "date-ability", I'd rate you as "worth investigating further & passionate about beliefs". But, enough of the idle speculation on why you didn't score with the opposite gender.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Clever, but your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me.

His Jedi mind tricks are insignificant compared to the power of Buffy's sex appeal.
Keronians wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:My law class took my virginity. And it was 100% consensual.

I accuse your precious law class of statutory rape.

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Farnhamia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 109037
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:34 pm

Arilandon wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:It's actually none of your business, is it? Let's just call it the US and leave it at that.

Well i was't even meaning which settlement just which state.

Tell me why it's relevant to anything first.
Wash Your Damned Hands!

Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Arilandon
Envoy
 
Posts: 251
Founded: Jun 15, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Arilandon » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:35 pm

Angleter wrote:No, since there are very few Greeks or Armenians left in Turkey. Kurdish independence would have to be supported by most Turkish Kurds, and then there'd be the matter of Iraq and Iran's Kurds.

What about the Assyrians? They always get forgotten in these things.

They dont really have any obvious place where they could have they nation-state.

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Veblenia
Minister
 
Posts: 2196
Founded: Nov 13, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Veblenia » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:35 pm

Arilandon wrote:
Cosmopoles wrote:
The Treaty of Sevres was forced on the defeated Ottomans. If you are going to insist that treaties forced on a defeated party shouldn't be honoured then why should Turkey honour Sevres?

Becuase it was a fair treaty, allocating land based on the ethnic composition of the areas.


But by your own admission the "ethnic composition" of those territories is not what it was. Allocating them as they were 90 years ago no longer makes sense.
Political Compass: -6.62, -7.69
"Freedom is a horizon in which we continually re-negotiate the terms of our own subjugation."
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Arilandon
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Founded: Jun 15, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Arilandon » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:35 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Arilandon wrote:Well i was't even meaning which settlement just which state.

Tell me why it's relevant to anything first.

It's not i just wanted to know.

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North Calaveras
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Posts: 16483
Founded: Mar 22, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby North Calaveras » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:35 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:
North Calaveras wrote:
Sad part is people will bitch and say Turkey dosn't need to return anything but when it comes to Israel they will jump all over them.

There is practically no debate about Turkish borders. There is a clear and marked difference.


No there is no difference, just because there isn't a debate about it means nothing, if people are going to bitch about Israel then they better bitch about any other nation on this earth that has taken territory.
Government: Romanist Ceasarist Dictatorship
Political Themes: Nationalism, Romanticism, Ceasarism, Militarism, Social Liberalism, Cult of Personality
Ethnic Groups: American, Latino, Filipino

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Arilandon
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Founded: Jun 15, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Arilandon » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:36 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:Considering an active Turkish government never signed that treaty and the fact that it was annulled and replaced, I have no idea why they should.

It was signed by the ottoman empire which was turkish.

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Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69023
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:36 pm

North Calaveras wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:There is practically no debate about Turkish borders. There is a clear and marked difference.


No there is no difference, just because there isn't a debate about it means nothing, if people are going to bitch about Israel then they better bitch about any other nation on this earth that has taken territory.

Well, that would be...

*scribbles on the board*

Let's see... multiply by 2, carry the 1...

All of them.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Buffett and Colbert
Post Czar
 
Posts: 32382
Founded: Oct 05, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Buffett and Colbert » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:37 pm

North Calaveras wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:There is practically no debate about Turkish borders. There is a clear and marked difference.


No there is no difference, just because there isn't a debate about it means nothing, if people are going to bitch about Israel then they better bitch about any other nation on this earth that has taken territory.

Even when they are wholly different situations? When one situation presently is causing harm to thousands of people and the other did so one hundred years prior? Mmm, no.
If the knowledge isn't useful, you haven't found the lesson yet. ~Iniika
You-Gi-Owe wrote:If someone were to ask me about your online persona as a standard of your "date-ability", I'd rate you as "worth investigating further & passionate about beliefs". But, enough of the idle speculation on why you didn't score with the opposite gender.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Clever, but your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me.

His Jedi mind tricks are insignificant compared to the power of Buffy's sex appeal.
Keronians wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:My law class took my virginity. And it was 100% consensual.

I accuse your precious law class of statutory rape.

User avatar
Buffett and Colbert
Post Czar
 
Posts: 32382
Founded: Oct 05, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Buffett and Colbert » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:37 pm

Arilandon wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Considering an active Turkish government never signed that treaty and the fact that it was annulled and replaced, I have no idea why they should.

It was signed by the ottoman empire which was turkish.

The treaty was never ratified, and it was annulled either way.
If the knowledge isn't useful, you haven't found the lesson yet. ~Iniika
You-Gi-Owe wrote:If someone were to ask me about your online persona as a standard of your "date-ability", I'd rate you as "worth investigating further & passionate about beliefs". But, enough of the idle speculation on why you didn't score with the opposite gender.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Clever, but your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me.

His Jedi mind tricks are insignificant compared to the power of Buffy's sex appeal.
Keronians wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:My law class took my virginity. And it was 100% consensual.

I accuse your precious law class of statutory rape.

User avatar
Arilandon
Envoy
 
Posts: 251
Founded: Jun 15, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Arilandon » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:38 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:
North Calaveras wrote:
Sad part is people will bitch and say Turkey dosn't need to return anything but when it comes to Israel they will jump all over them.

There is practically no debate about Turkish borders. There is a clear and marked difference.

What is that even for a kind of argument? Just becuase there is no debate (which there actually is in some circles and especially regarding kurdistan) does't mean it is justified.

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