Should Turkey return the territories it has stolen?

[Leepaidamba]

Question: how can you return what has never been owned by the one you're returning it to? The Greek territories could be returned, the Armenian territories were never Armenian, or at least mostly not owned by an Armenian stat.

And on the topic of forced removals: the Greek government not only approved of it but also exchanged a large number of Muslim, though not necessarily Turkish or even Turkic, people with Turkey.

But seriously, is this all you are willing to discuss?

1. it was according to an international treaty signed by the previous "owners" and armenia
2. it was clearly forced on the greek government, they had just been at war with turkey and needed peace and good realations. Also 500 thousand muslims for 2,5 million greeks does't seem like a fair deal
3. i dont understand the question

1. Could you elaborate.
2. I don't think it was fair either but history isn't fair. Whether it was forced is disputable but I'm not going to dispute it.
3. You've been banned before after a similar thread became a "yes they did-no they didn't" argument. Do you really want that anymore? Can't you actually give good arguments beyond historical arguments?
And after all, you can't punish the sons for the crimes of the fathers. Let alone for the crimes of the grandfathers.

[Arilandon]

1. it was according to an international treaty signed by the previous "owners" and armenia
2. it was clearly forced on the greek government, they had just been at war with turkey and needed peace and good realations. Also 500 thousand muslims for 2,5 million greeks does't seem like a fair deal
3. i dont understand the question

1. Could you elaborate.
2. I don't think it was fair either but history isn't fair. Whether it was forced is disputable but I'm not going to dispute it.
3. You've been banned before after a similar thread became a "yes they did-no they didn't" argument. Do you really want that anymore? Can't you actually give good arguments beyond historical arguments?
And after all, you can't punish the sons for the crimes of the fathers. Let alone for the crimes of the grandfathers.

1.

The treaty had four signatories for the Ottoman Empire: Rıza Tevfik, the grand vizier Damat Ferid Pasha, ambassador Hadi Pasha and the minister of education Reşid Halis who were endorsed by Sultan Mehmed VI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_sevres
2. so, what?
3. When exactly?
4. thats not what i'm saying either

[Greed and Death]

I do not know If anything we should return Greece to Turkish rule the Turks seem to have a better head for math.

[Arilandon]

I do not know If anything we should return Greece to Turkish rule the Turks seem to have a better head for math.

Are you refering to the greek debt crisis?

[Farnhamia]

So the Greeks bought peace and good relations after getting their butts kicked by the Turks. Funny, that. So, what are you upset about, that one Muslim was valued as equal to five Greeks? Maybe 500 thousand is all the Greeks had.

Why is that funny? I'm upset about people having lived for maybe more than 1000-2000 years in an area being forcefully removed, by principal i'm allways oppesed to forced removals

Not "funny ha ha" but "funny gosh what a surprise". Somehow I can't help wonder about the depth of your outrage, sorry. Besides regaling us about the horrors which non-Turks are subject to (I'll concede the point on that, just wanted you to do a little due diligence) and lecturing us on 80 y/o treaties, what are you doing personally to correct these injustices?

[Arilandon]

Why is that funny? I'm upset about people having lived for maybe more than 1000-2000 years in an area being forcefully removed, by principal i'm allways oppesed to forced removals

Not "funny ha ha" but "funny gosh what a surprise". Somehow I can't help wonder about the depth of your outrage, sorry. Besides regaling us about the horrors which non-Turks are subject to (I'll concede the point on that, just wanted you to do a little due diligence) and lecturing us on 80 y/o treaties, what are you doing personally to correct these injustices?

Informing people. I cant do much at the movement since i'm a student.

[Veblenia]

2. it was clearly forced on the greek government, they had just been at war with turkey and needed peace and good realations.

That is usually why peace treaties are signed.

[Arilandon]

2. it was clearly forced on the greek government, they had just been at war with turkey and needed peace and good realations.

That is usually why peace treaties are signed.

Does't mean it ws justified, since the Greco-Turkish war was an unjust and brutal war. That's mainly what i'm discussing, not whatever or not the greek government should have signed the population exchange treaty.

EDIT: also it was't a peace treaty the Treaty of Lausanne was the peace treaty, the population exchange treaty was a follow up treaty.

[Mediterreania]

I have Armenian friends, making me a biased party...

[Farnhamia]

Not "funny ha ha" but "funny gosh what a surprise". Somehow I can't help wonder about the depth of your outrage, sorry. Besides regaling us about the horrors which non-Turks are subject to (I'll concede the point on that, just wanted you to do a little due diligence) and lecturing us on 80 y/o treaties, what are you doing personally to correct these injustices?

Informing people. I cant do much at the movement since i'm a student.

In other words, nothing. Students have moved the world in the past, but I guess the youth of today is not as brave as their parents were.

And by the way, stop offering the Treaty of Sèvres as proof of anything, it is not in effect anywhere but in history books. Lausanne superseded it and before you say "forced on the signatories" again, one might make as strong a case as Sèvres being forced on the Turks.

Again, I lost family to the Turks in 1915, so you aren't teaching me anything. Use your energy to right wrongs that can be corrected, not ones from what is practically ancient history.

[Greed and Death]

I do not know If anything we should return Greece to Turkish rule the Turks seem to have a better head for math.

Are you refering to the greek debt crisis?

Why should we give you more land when your about to collapse the land you got.

[Farnhamia]

Are you refering to the greek debt crisis?

Why should we give you more land when your about to collapse the land you got.

They'll need it to replace the land that collapses. Come on, G&D, think about it.

[Cosmopoles]

2. it was clearly forced on the greek government, they had just been at war with turkey and needed peace and good realations. Also 500 thousand muslims for 2,5 million greeks does't seem like a fair deal

The Treaty of Sevres was forced on the defeated Ottomans. If you are going to insist that treaties forced on a defeated party shouldn't be honoured then why should Turkey honour Sevres?

[Arilandon]

Informing people. I cant do much at the movement since i'm a student.

In other words, nothing. Students have moved the world in the past, but I guess the youth of today is not as brave as their parents were.

And by the way, stop offering the Treaty of Sèvres as proof of anything, it is not in effect anywhere but in history books. Lausanne superseded it and before you say "forced on the signatories" again, one might make as strong a case as Sèvres being forced on the Turks.

Again, I lost family to the Turks in 1915, so you aren't teaching me anything. Use your energy to right wrongs that can be corrected, not ones from what is practically ancient history.

1. Are you doing anything?
2. I manly use turkish injustices as proof

[Farnhamia]

2. it was clearly forced on the greek government, they had just been at war with turkey and needed peace and good realations. Also 500 thousand muslims for 2,5 million greeks does't seem like a fair deal

The Treaty of Sevres was forced on the defeated Ottomans. If you are going to insist that treaties forced on a defeated party shouldn't be honoured then why should Turkey honour Sevres?

Oh, man, if they invalidate the Third Treaty of San Ildefonso, Imosgone and I and a few others are going to become Spanish subjects.

[Arilandon]

Are you refering to the greek debt crisis?

Why should we give you more land when your about to collapse the land you got.

I'm not greek.

[Farnhamia]

In other words, nothing. Students have moved the world in the past, but I guess the youth of today is not as brave as their parents were.

And by the way, stop offering the Treaty of Sèvres as proof of anything, it is not in effect anywhere but in history books. Lausanne superseded it and before you say "forced on the signatories" again, one might make as strong a case as Sèvres being forced on the Turks.

Again, I lost family to the Turks in 1915, so you aren't teaching me anything. Use your energy to right wrongs that can be corrected, not ones from what is practically ancient history.

1. Are you doing anything?
2. I manly use turkish injustices as proof

I don't have my knickers in a twist over it. I realize that this is a wrong whose time has passed, whose time had passed by 1930. Use all the injustice you like, that's fine, just stop with the invalid treaties.

[Farnhamia]

Why should we give you more land when your about to collapse the land you got.

I'm not greek.

I asked you before, what's your ethnic interest in this? Or do you have one?

[Arilandon]

2. it was clearly forced on the greek government, they had just been at war with turkey and needed peace and good realations. Also 500 thousand muslims for 2,5 million greeks does't seem like a fair deal

The Treaty of Sevres was forced on the defeated Ottomans. If you are going to insist that treaties forced on a defeated party shouldn't be honoured then why should Turkey honour Sevres?

Becuase it was a fair treaty, allocating land based on the ethnic composition of the areas.

[Arilandon]

The Treaty of Sevres was forced on the defeated Ottomans. If you are going to insist that treaties forced on a defeated party shouldn't be honoured then why should Turkey honour Sevres?

Oh, man, if they invalidate the Third Treaty of San Ildefonso, Imosgone and I and a few others are going to become Spanish subjects.

Where do you live?

[Farnhamia]

Oh, man, if they invalidate the Third Treaty of San Ildefonso, Imosgone and I and a few others are going to become Spanish subjects.

Where do you live?

You're the expert on treaties, figure it out.

[Arilandon]

I'm not greek.

I asked you before, what's your ethnic interest in this? Or do you have one?

I told you, no.

[Arilandon]

1. Are you doing anything?
2. I manly use turkish injustices as proof

I don't have my knickers in a twist over it. I realize that this is a wrong whose time has passed, whose time had passed by 1930. Use all the injustice you like, that's fine, just stop with the invalid treaties.

But it think the borders should be returned to the borders of that treaty.

[Cosmopoles]

Becuase it was a fair treaty, allocating land based on the ethnic composition of the areas.

It doesn't matter if it came with two weeks at an all inclusive resort in the Bahamas, the Greek government agreed to annul it so it can't be enforced.

[Arilandon]

Where do you live?

You're the expert on treaties, figure it out.

Somewhere in the former lousiana territory, but where exactly?