Abortion Debate- Fetuses, Periods, and Wanking

[Buffett and Colbert]

But it can't be murdered.

Actually, yes it can.

http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14386

In 38 states, anyway.

Doesnt make for a very solid philosophical argument.

[Rhodmhire]

I think he's saying that calling a fetus a nonperson is inherently contradictory, as it can be murdered, and the perpetrator charged with murder.

Thank you, Darth.

So, are you agreeing with my point about its biological status being not as important as the conflict of rights between the mother and fetus in this discussion, then?

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

[/Desynchronized]



While I can see how the idea is a tad bit disturbing, I might not be so surprised to find out that there are more unwanted pregnancies prevented via abortions than birth control pills and other means.

A chart comparing the two? Unknown to me, if it even exists, if it is even possible to make. Would it be a huge surprise? Honestly, not really. Although, abortion rates have been supposedly dropping in recent years, so that might impact my thoughts on it.

It is quite obviously impossible to count the number of pregnancies prevented by hormonal contraception, condoms, etc., since you can't really count the number of pregnancies one didn't have.

That said, given that something like 40% of all women in the US are currently using hormonal contraception, and well over 10 BILLION condoms are used worldwide every year, it's more than a little silly to imagine that abortions are even remotely on the same scale of importance as a method of birth control.

It's unfortunate. 10,000,000,000 condoms for an estimated 850,900,000,000 sex acts.

[Galloism]

Actually, yes it can.

http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14386

In 38 states, anyway.

Doesnt make for a very solid philosophical argument.

Pretty solid. Our laws (in most states) explicitly or implicitly state that the fetus is a person, at some stage of development. It means that is what is generally accepted as true.

Similarly, if I said that Hitler was an asshole, that is generally accepted as true. It puts the ball on the other side of the court to challenge current knowledge.

[Galloism]

It is quite obviously impossible to count the number of pregnancies prevented by hormonal contraception, condoms, etc., since you can't really count the number of pregnancies one didn't have.

That said, given that something like 40% of all women in the US are currently using hormonal contraception, and well over 10 BILLION condoms are used worldwide every year, it's more than a little silly to imagine that abortions are even remotely on the same scale of importance as a method of birth control.

It's unfortunate. 10,000,000,000 condoms for an estimated 850,900,000,000 sex acts.

Again...... 30%.....

[Grenartia]

Thank you, Darth.

So, are you agreeing with my point about its biological status being not as important as the conflict of rights between the mother and fetus in this discussion, then?

Yes.

[Rhodmhire]

So, are you agreeing with my point about its biological status being not as important as the conflict of rights between the mother and fetus in this discussion, then?

Yes.

Alright, thanks for clarifying. I sort of picked up a tone that suggested you were trying to argue against a point of mine. Sorry, that was a significant misunderstanding on my part.

[Buffett and Colbert]

Doesnt make for a very solid philosophical argument.

Pretty solid. Our laws (in most states) explicitly or implicitly state that the fetus is a person, at some stage of development. It means that is what is generally accepted as true.

Similarly, if I said that Hitler was an asshole, that is generally accepted as true. It puts the ball on the other side of the court to challenge current knowledge.

No it says various states have various laws concerning abortion which indicates the opposite of a consensus, not that the law is terribly relevant in moral arguments anyway.

[Grenartia]

Yes.

Alright, thanks for clarifying. I sort of picked up a tone that suggested you were trying to argue against a point of mine. Sorry, that was a significant misunderstanding on my part.

Its cool.

[Grenartia]

Pretty solid. Our laws (in most states) explicitly or implicitly state that the fetus is a person, at some stage of development. It means that is what is generally accepted as true.

Similarly, if I said that Hitler was an asshole, that is generally accepted as true. It puts the ball on the other side of the court to challenge current knowledge.

No it says various states have various laws concerning abortion which indicates the opposite of a consensus, not that the law is terribly relevant in moral arguments anyway.

Just saying, its a federal law as well...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

[Wiztopia]

Common sense obviously. A woman is born and a fetus isn't. That is how it women's rights trump any fetal "rights".

A fetus isn't a person because it is not born yet.

Well, for the 2nd time, you've refused to provide me with a source when I've asked for it, so consider yourself considered a troll.

Ok. So its ok with you if I go back in time and convince your mother to abort you, because she was born and you weren't?

I didn't think so.

You seriously want a source that shows a born woman and a fetus? Common sense and logic tell you a fetus is not a person. A fetus is not a person until it is born. Also nice appeal to emotion. Really pathetic of you to try and go there with such a terrible argument. Somebody tried that on me and I said "yep!" right away since it is a woman's choice to choose.

[Galloism]

Well, for the 2nd time, you've refused to provide me with a source when I've asked for it, so consider yourself considered a troll.

Ok. So its ok with you if I go back in time and convince your mother to abort you, because she was born and you weren't?

I didn't think so.

You seriously want a source that shows a born woman and a fetus? Common sense and logic tell you a fetus is not a person. A fetus is not a person until it is born. Also nice appeal to emotion. Really pathetic of you to try and go there with such a terrible argument. Somebody tried that on me and I said "yep!" right away since it is a woman's choice to choose.

Why is being born the delimiter on personhood?

If anything it would be when the brain starts functioning (late second trimester, I believe) or when the baby attains what we would call sapience (I think bottle said that was about 2 years old?).

Birth seems like a fully arbitrary line for personhood, not to mention it flies in the face of current law on the subject.

[Nulono]

Why not point them to one of the 8 billion abortion threads already in existence?

[Ifreann]

Why not point them to one of the 8 billion abortion threads already in existence?

Because it's summer! Nazis and abortion for all!

[Grenartia]

You seriously want a source that shows a born woman and a fetus? Common sense and logic tell you a fetus is not a person. A fetus is not a person until it is born. Also nice appeal to emotion. Really pathetic of you to try and go there with such a terrible argument. Somebody tried that on me and I said "yep!" right away since it is a woman's choice to choose.

Why is being born the delimiter on personhood?

If anything it would be when the brain starts functioning (late second trimester, I believe) or when the baby attains what we would call sapience (I think bottle said that was about 2 years old?).

Birth seems like a fully arbitrary line for personhood, not to mention it flies in the face of current law on the subject.

Exactly. And I really doubt he would support killing 2 year olds.

[EvilDarkMagicians]

Pro-choice on all matters apart from peroids.

[Aeronos]

Pro-choice with logical term limits (after 20 weeks once the rudimentary cognitive faculties start firing online = nono, prior to that the baby, by definition, is just a cluster of cells no more human than a plant).

[United Dependencies]

It's unfortunate. 10,000,000,000 condoms for an estimated 850,900,000,000 sex acts.

Again...... 30%.....

Isn't there a point where that becomes less of an activity and more of a chore?

[Ifreann]

Again...... 30%.....

Isn't there a point where that becomes less of an activity and more of a chore?

Around 35%

[Malgrave]

Pro-Choice. I currently support the abortion laws in the United Kingdom.

[Sociobiology]

Pro-choice with logical term limits (after 20 weeks once the rudimentary cognitive faculties start firing online = nono, prior to that the baby, by definition, is just a cluster of cells no more human than a plant).

well more human than a plant, but certainly not more than tumor.

[Tekania]

I feel life begins at conception; wanking isn't murder, periods are natural so obviously, not murder. But once the egg and sperm meet, that's a human life.

What about all those failed blastocyst implantations? We're already well past conception, and they're being discarded on sanitary napkins and flushed down toilets?

[Ifreann]

I feel life begins at conception; wanking isn't murder, periods are natural so obviously, not murder. But once the egg and sperm meet, that's a human life.

What about all those failed blastocyst implantations? We're already well past conception, and they're being discarded on sanitary napkins and flushed down toilets?

God causes that to happen, because those babies would have been Hitler.

[Tekania]

What about all those failed blastocyst implantations? We're already well past conception, and they're being discarded on sanitary napkins and flushed down toilets?

God causes that to happen, because those babies would have been Hitler.

I thought they were supposed to be pro-life? Clearly since many of these blastocysts survive for hours after failed implantations, they should be advocating that these women be charged for child neglect... Since they don't they're obviously not all that serious about their beliefs. Merely because it could have been Hitler, or it was an act by God is no excuse for them to be negligent to the dictates of their ideological viewpoint.

[Grenartia]

I feel life begins at conception; wanking isn't murder, periods are natural so obviously, not murder. But once the egg and sperm meet, that's a human life.

For the record, I don't agree with this.^

Pro-choice with logical term limits (after 20 weeks once the rudimentary cognitive faculties start firing online = nono, prior to that the baby, by definition, is just a cluster of cells no more human than a plant).

I can abide by that. I know that technically makes me Pro-choice, but for some reason, I prefer to call myself Pro-life.