NationStates

Grenartia wrote:

The Anti-Cosmic Gods wrote:Who cares if the fetus is a person or not? It is inhabiting the body of another person, and that person's right to bodily autonomy supersedes whatever "rights" moralists want to attach to a clump of cells.

That once that 'clump of cells' has a heartbeat, and brain functions, it becomes a person.

Wiztopia wrote:

Grenartia wrote:You do realize that a 3rd trimester fetus can be premature. In fact, IIRC from all the wiki visits I've been doing on this topic, a really late 2nd trimester fetus (5 months) can survive outside the womb, albeit very unlikely.

If its born it isn't a fetus anymore.

Galloism wrote:

Nulono wrote:Except you're conflating positive and negative rights.

Actually, I'm not.

If we presume the fetus a right to live, and the woman in question has a right to bodily integrity, part of the integrity is that she can choose to have parasitic-like organisms removed from her.

The fact that the fetus (or earlier stage) then dies is an unfortunate side effect of removal.

Wiztopia wrote:

Grenartia wrote:You do realize that a 3rd trimester fetus can be premature. In fact, IIRC from all the wiki visits I've been doing on this topic, a really late 2nd trimester fetus (5 months) can survive outside the womb, albeit very unlikely.

If its born it isn't a fetus anymore.

Nulono wrote:

Wiztopia wrote:
If its born it isn't a fetus anymore.

But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

Nulono wrote:

Wiztopia wrote:
If its born it isn't a fetus anymore.

But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

Galloism wrote:Actually, I'm not.

If we presume the fetus a right to live, and the woman in question has a right to bodily integrity, part of the integrity is that she can choose to have parasitic-like organisms removed from her.

The fact that the fetus (or earlier stage) then dies is an unfortunate side effect of removal.

The fetus has a negative right to live, the right to not be killed. The specific method of killing is irrelevant.

Wiztopia wrote:

Nulono wrote:
But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

You missed the point. No fetus can live without its mother. So once it is removed and still alive it becomes a baby.

Alixanderia wrote:

Nulono wrote:
But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

The fetus has a negative right to live, the right to not be killed. The specific method of killing is irrelevant.

It can't be killed. Only removed. It is not a person, and thus has no "right" to use a woman's body against her will.

Nulono wrote:

Wiztopia wrote:
You missed the point. No fetus can live without its mother. So once it is removed and still alive it becomes a baby.

A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

Alixanderia wrote:It can't be killed. Only removed. It is not a person, and thus has no "right" to use a woman's body against her will.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

Nulono wrote:

Wiztopia wrote:
You missed the point. No fetus can live without its mother. So once it is removed and still alive it becomes a baby.

A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

Alixanderia wrote:It can't be killed. Only removed. It is not a person, and thus has no "right" to use a woman's body against her will.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

Nulono wrote:

Wiztopia wrote:
If its born it isn't a fetus anymore.

But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

Galloism wrote:Actually, I'm not.

If we presume the fetus a right to live, and the woman in question has a right to bodily integrity, part of the integrity is that she can choose to have parasitic-like organisms removed from her.

The fact that the fetus (or earlier stage) then dies is an unfortunate side effect of removal.

The fetus has a negative right to live, the right to not be killed. The specific method of killing is irrelevant.

Alixanderia wrote:

Nulono wrote:A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

You can't kill something that isn't alive. That's like saying you've "killed" a pizza. Pizza wasn't alive, it can't be killed. A spider is more alive than a fetus.

Alixanderia wrote:

Nulono wrote:A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

You can't kill something that isn't alive. That's like saying you've "killed" a pizza. Pizza wasn't alive, it can't be killed. A spider is more alive than a fetus.

Wiztopia wrote:

Nulono wrote:A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

Nope. A fetus becomes a baby once born so no fetus can actually live without its mother. Once removed it isn't a fetus anymore.

Galloism wrote:

Nulono wrote:
But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

The fetus has a negative right to live, the right to not be killed. The specific method of killing is irrelevant.

The woman also has a negative right, the right not to have her body used and exploited, and suffer bodily harm as a result, against her will.

Although the fetus has no intent, it does just that.

Alixanderia wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
That once that 'clump of cells' has a heartbeat, and brain functions, it becomes a person.

Brain function develops at the third trimester, but a heartbeat can develop at 18 days. That's only 4 days after a missed period, considering she got pregnant at ovulation. Many women won't know they're pregnant until a week to a month later. So, which is it? Third trimester, or 4 days after the missed period?

According to an overview produced by the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh, purposive movement begins at about 18 weeks, gradually replacing reflex movements, and purposeful voluntary movements then develop further after birth.[4]

In these early movements, the limbs move together; they begin to move independently by the ninth week as the controlling neurons in the spinal cord develop.[9] At week 11, the fetus can open its mouth and suck its fingers; at week 12, it begins to swallow amniotic fluid.[10]

In addition to sideward bendings of the head, complex and generalized movements occur at the beginning of the fetal stage, with movements and startles that involve the whole body.[11] Movement of hands, hips and knees have been observed at nine weeks,[12] stretches and yawns at ten weeks,[13] and isolated limb movements beginning shortly thereafter.[11]

By about the twelfth week, the fetus is able to kick and curl its toes, and may grasp its feet or scratch itself with its fingernails.[10] It can also move in response to a touch on its skin.[14]

The startle reflex is present in half of all fetuses by week 24 and in all fetuses by week 28.[18]

Nulono wrote:

Wiztopia wrote:
Nope. A fetus becomes a baby once born so no fetus can actually live without its mother. Once removed it isn't a fetus anymore.

That's ridiculous. Of COURSE some fetuses can survive without the mother. If not, we'd all be dead.

Wiztopia wrote:

Nulono wrote:That's ridiculous. Of COURSE some fetuses can survive without the mother. If not, we'd all be dead.

Not at all. If its born then it becomes a baby hence a fetus not being able to survive without is mother. ~~~~

Galloism wrote:

Alixanderia wrote:You can't kill something that isn't alive. That's like saying you've "killed" a pizza. Pizza wasn't alive, it can't be killed. A spider is more alive than a fetus.

Ok, that's even more absurd than the "magic pixie dust makes it a person at birth" argument.

A fetus can be killed, because it is, in fact, alive. Cells are respirating, nutrients are being moved around and used, and there is replication within it.

Amoebas are alive and can be killed too.

Jeez. Its like a dead baby joke, but said seriously.

Since there is no unequivocal definition of life, the current understanding is descriptive, where life is a characteristic of organisms that exhibit all or most of the following phenomena:[14][16]
1.Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
2.Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
3.Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
4.Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
5.Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
6.Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.
7.Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.

Nulono wrote:

Wiztopia wrote:
Not at all. If its born then it becomes a baby hence a fetus not being able to survive without is mother. ~~~~

A fetus can survive without the mother's body. The fetus isn't currently doing this, but the fetus CAN.

Wiztopia wrote:

Nulono wrote:That's ridiculous. Of COURSE some fetuses can survive without the mother. If not, we'd all be dead.

Not at all. If its born then it becomes a baby hence a fetus not being able to survive without is mother. ~~~~

Wiztopia wrote:

Nulono wrote:A fetus can survive without the mother's body. The fetus isn't currently doing this, but the fetus CAN.

That's total bullshit. The fetus cannot live without a mother's body.

Alixanderia wrote:

Nulono wrote:A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

You can't kill something that isn't alive. That's like saying you've "killed" a pizza. Pizza wasn't alive, it can't be killed. A spider is more alive than a fetus.

Grenartia wrote:

Galloism wrote:Ok, that's even more absurd than the "magic pixie dust makes it a person at birth" argument.

A fetus can be killed, because it is, in fact, alive. Cells are respirating, nutrients are being moved around and used, and there is replication within it.

Amoebas are alive and can be killed too.

Jeez. Its like a dead baby joke, but said seriously.

Actually, the pixie dust argument was more sarcasm than anything, I thought that was apparent.

Wiztopia wrote:

Nulono wrote:A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

Nope. A fetus becomes a baby once born so no fetus can actually live without its mother. Once removed it isn't a fetus anymore.

Keronians wrote:

Wiztopia wrote:
Nope. A fetus becomes a baby once born so no fetus can actually live without its mother. Once removed it isn't a fetus anymore.

What is this I don't even...

A foetus at 30 weeks, for example, is viable, which, by definition, means that the foetus can live without its mother.

Galloism wrote:

Keronians wrote:
What is this I don't even...

A foetus at 30 weeks, for example, is viable, which, by definition, means that the foetus can live without its mother.

Weren't you reading?

Passing through a vagina is what does a complete transformation and allows the organism in question to survive outside its mother.

The experience also grants personhood, or something.

... Who told you that a fetus isn't alive...? A fetus is most definitely alive.