Abortion Debate- Fetuses, Periods, and Wanking

[Alixanderia]

Who cares if the fetus is a person or not? It is inhabiting the body of another person, and that person's right to bodily autonomy supersedes whatever "rights" moralists want to attach to a clump of cells.

That once that 'clump of cells' has a heartbeat, and brain functions, it becomes a person.

Brain function develops at the third trimester, but a heartbeat can develop at 18 days. That's only 4 days after a missed period, considering she got pregnant at ovulation. Many women won't know they're pregnant until a week to a month later. So, which is it? Third trimester, or 4 days after the missed period?

[Nulono]

You do realize that a 3rd trimester fetus can be premature. In fact, IIRC from all the wiki visits I've been doing on this topic, a really late 2nd trimester fetus (5 months) can survive outside the womb, albeit very unlikely.

If its born it isn't a fetus anymore.

But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

Except you're conflating positive and negative rights.

Actually, I'm not.

If we presume the fetus a right to live, and the woman in question has a right to bodily integrity, part of the integrity is that she can choose to have parasitic-like organisms removed from her.

The fact that the fetus (or earlier stage) then dies is an unfortunate side effect of removal.

The fetus has a negative right to live, the right to not be killed. The specific method of killing is irrelevant.

[Galloism]

You do realize that a 3rd trimester fetus can be premature. In fact, IIRC from all the wiki visits I've been doing on this topic, a really late 2nd trimester fetus (5 months) can survive outside the womb, albeit very unlikely.

If its born it isn't a fetus anymore.

And you have yet to explain why the physical location of substantively the same organism matters for status of personhood.

[Wiztopia]

If its born it isn't a fetus anymore.

But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

You missed the point. No fetus can live without its mother. So once it is removed and still alive it becomes a baby.

[Alixanderia]

If its born it isn't a fetus anymore.

But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

Actually, I'm not.

If we presume the fetus a right to live, and the woman in question has a right to bodily integrity, part of the integrity is that she can choose to have parasitic-like organisms removed from her.

The fact that the fetus (or earlier stage) then dies is an unfortunate side effect of removal.

The fetus has a negative right to live, the right to not be killed. The specific method of killing is irrelevant.

It can't be killed. Only removed. It is not a person, and thus has no "right" to use a woman's body against her will.

[Nulono]

But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

You missed the point. No fetus can live without its mother. So once it is removed and still alive it becomes a baby.

A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

The fetus has a negative right to live, the right to not be killed. The specific method of killing is irrelevant.

It can't be killed. Only removed. It is not a person, and thus has no "right" to use a woman's body against her will.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

[Alixanderia]

You missed the point. No fetus can live without its mother. So once it is removed and still alive it becomes a baby.

A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

It can't be killed. Only removed. It is not a person, and thus has no "right" to use a woman's body against her will.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

You can't kill something that isn't alive. That's like saying you've "killed" a pizza. Pizza wasn't alive, it can't be killed. A spider is more alive than a fetus.

[Wiztopia]

You missed the point. No fetus can live without its mother. So once it is removed and still alive it becomes a baby.

A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

It can't be killed. Only removed. It is not a person, and thus has no "right" to use a woman's body against her will.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

Nope. A fetus becomes a baby once born so no fetus can actually live without its mother. Once removed it isn't a fetus anymore.

[Galloism]

If its born it isn't a fetus anymore.

But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

Actually, I'm not.

If we presume the fetus a right to live, and the woman in question has a right to bodily integrity, part of the integrity is that she can choose to have parasitic-like organisms removed from her.

The fact that the fetus (or earlier stage) then dies is an unfortunate side effect of removal.

The fetus has a negative right to live, the right to not be killed. The specific method of killing is irrelevant.

The woman also has a negative right, the right not to have her body used and exploited, and suffer bodily harm as a result, against her will.

Although the fetus has no intent, it does just that.

[Nulono]

A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

You can't kill something that isn't alive. That's like saying you've "killed" a pizza. Pizza wasn't alive, it can't be killed. A spider is more alive than a fetus.

em·bry·o
(mbr-)
n. pl. em·bry·os
1.
a. An organism in its early stages of development, especially before it has reached a distinctively recognizable form.
b. An organism at any time before full development, birth, or hatching.

or·gan·ism
(ôrg-nzm)
n.
1. An individual form of life, such as a plant, animal, bacterium, protist, or fungus; a body made up of organs, organelles, or other parts that work together to carry on the various processes of life.

[Galloism]

A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

You can't kill something that isn't alive. That's like saying you've "killed" a pizza. Pizza wasn't alive, it can't be killed. A spider is more alive than a fetus.

Ok, that's even more absurd than the "magic pixie dust makes it a person at birth" argument.

A fetus can be killed, because it is, in fact, alive. Cells are respirating, nutrients are being moved around and used, and there is replication within it.

Amoebas are alive and can be killed too.

Jeez. Its like a dead baby joke, but said seriously.

[Nulono]

A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

Nope. A fetus becomes a baby once born so no fetus can actually live without its mother. Once removed it isn't a fetus anymore.

That's ridiculous. Of COURSE some fetuses can survive without the mother. If not, we'd all be dead.

But a 22+ week old fetus is viable.

The fetus has a negative right to live, the right to not be killed. The specific method of killing is irrelevant.

The woman also has a negative right, the right not to have her body used and exploited, and suffer bodily harm as a result, against her will.

Although the fetus has no intent, it does just that.

She may remove the fetus if she wishes, but killing the fetus violates the fetus's right to live.

[Grenartia]

That once that 'clump of cells' has a heartbeat, and brain functions, it becomes a person.

Brain function develops at the third trimester, but a heartbeat can develop at 18 days. That's only 4 days after a missed period, considering she got pregnant at ovulation. Many women won't know they're pregnant until a week to a month later. So, which is it? Third trimester, or 4 days after the missed period?

Ah. I was misinformed that the hearbeat started in the second trimester.

Anyways, this from the wiki article on fetal movement:

According to an overview produced by the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh, purposive movement begins at about 18 weeks, gradually replacing reflex movements, and purposeful voluntary movements then develop further after birth.[4]

In these early movements, the limbs move together; they begin to move independently by the ninth week as the controlling neurons in the spinal cord develop.[9] At week 11, the fetus can open its mouth and suck its fingers; at week 12, it begins to swallow amniotic fluid.[10]

In addition to sideward bendings of the head, complex and generalized movements occur at the beginning of the fetal stage, with movements and startles that involve the whole body.[11] Movement of hands, hips and knees have been observed at nine weeks,[12] stretches and yawns at ten weeks,[13] and isolated limb movements beginning shortly thereafter.[11]

By about the twelfth week, the fetus is able to kick and curl its toes, and may grasp its feet or scratch itself with its fingernails.[10] It can also move in response to a touch on its skin.[14]

The startle reflex is present in half of all fetuses by week 24 and in all fetuses by week 28.[18]

Which tells me that the fetus's nervous system is at least partially developed towards the end of the first trimester.

So, let's say the cut off at the beginning of the 2nd trimester.

[Wiztopia]

Nope. A fetus becomes a baby once born so no fetus can actually live without its mother. Once removed it isn't a fetus anymore.

That's ridiculous. Of COURSE some fetuses can survive without the mother. If not, we'd all be dead.

Not at all. If its born then it becomes a baby hence a fetus not being able to survive without is mother. ~~~~

[Nulono]

That's ridiculous. Of COURSE some fetuses can survive without the mother. If not, we'd all be dead.

Not at all. If its born then it becomes a baby hence a fetus not being able to survive without is mother. ~~~~

A fetus can survive without the mother's body. The fetus isn't currently doing this, but the fetus CAN.

[Grenartia]

You can't kill something that isn't alive. That's like saying you've "killed" a pizza. Pizza wasn't alive, it can't be killed. A spider is more alive than a fetus.

Ok, that's even more absurd than the "magic pixie dust makes it a person at birth" argument.

A fetus can be killed, because it is, in fact, alive. Cells are respirating, nutrients are being moved around and used, and there is replication within it.

Amoebas are alive and can be killed too.

Jeez. Its like a dead baby joke, but said seriously.

Actually, the pixie dust argument was more sarcasm than anything, I thought that was apparent.

And to Alix's statement, I give the following from the wiki article on life:

Since there is no unequivocal definition of life, the current understanding is descriptive, where life is a characteristic of organisms that exhibit all or most of the following phenomena:[14][16]
1.Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
2.Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
3.Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
4.Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
5.Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
6.Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.
7.Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.

The only requirement that a fetus doesn't fulfill is #7, and it won't be able to fulfill that until at least 13 years after birth.

[Wiztopia]

Not at all. If its born then it becomes a baby hence a fetus not being able to survive without is mother. ~~~~

A fetus can survive without the mother's body. The fetus isn't currently doing this, but the fetus CAN.

That's total bullshit. The fetus cannot live without a mother's body.

[Galloism]

That's ridiculous. Of COURSE some fetuses can survive without the mother. If not, we'd all be dead.

Not at all. If its born then it becomes a baby hence a fetus not being able to survive without is mother. ~~~~

This is the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen. Ok, scratch that, top ten.... wait, this many years on NSG... Top 100.

This is like saying humans cannot survive under water for more than a minute, and when I point out the existence of scuba divers, saying that when the scuba gear goes on, they're no longer humans.

No matter what you call it, you have Organism 5446782A that can survive outside its mother's body. Therefore, your stipulation that such organism is not a person until it can do so is absurd, as it can do so. The fact that it may not be doing so at this exact moment does not preclude its already existing ability regarding it.

[Nulono]

A fetus can survive without the mother's body. The fetus isn't currently doing this, but the fetus CAN.

That's total bullshit. The fetus cannot live without a mother's body.

Not even at 9 months?

[Keronians]

A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

You can't kill something that isn't alive. That's like saying you've "killed" a pizza. Pizza wasn't alive, it can't be killed. A spider is more alive than a fetus.

... Who told you that a fetus isn't alive...? A fetus is most definitely alive.

[Galloism]

Ok, that's even more absurd than the "magic pixie dust makes it a person at birth" argument.

A fetus can be killed, because it is, in fact, alive. Cells are respirating, nutrients are being moved around and used, and there is replication within it.

Amoebas are alive and can be killed too.

Jeez. Its like a dead baby joke, but said seriously.

Actually, the pixie dust argument was more sarcasm than anything, I thought that was apparent.

Actually, I wasn't talking about your argument, there.

[Keronians]

A viable fetus can live without his/her mother. Once removed the fetus becomes an infant, but that doesn't negate the fetus's ability to survive ex utero.

A fetus can't be killed? What do you mean by that?

Nope. A fetus becomes a baby once born so no fetus can actually live without its mother. Once removed it isn't a fetus anymore.

What is this I don't even...

A foetus at 30 weeks, for example, is viable, which, by definition, means that the foetus can live without its mother.

[Galloism]

Nope. A fetus becomes a baby once born so no fetus can actually live without its mother. Once removed it isn't a fetus anymore.

What is this I don't even...

A foetus at 30 weeks, for example, is viable, which, by definition, means that the foetus can live without its mother.

Weren't you reading?

Passing through a vagina is what does a complete transformation and allows the organism in question to survive outside its mother.

The experience also grants personhood, or something.

[Keronians]

What is this I don't even...

A foetus at 30 weeks, for example, is viable, which, by definition, means that the foetus can live without its mother.

Weren't you reading?

Passing through a vagina is what does a complete transformation and allows the organism in question to survive outside its mother.

The experience also grants personhood, or something.

Oh.. so then...? But... Wait... Wha-

Never mind.

[Owlrusopia]

... Who told you that a fetus isn't alive...? A fetus is most definitely alive.

Bacteria, viruses, and sperm could all be qualified as being alive. Please don't arrest me for washing my hands.