Abortion Debate- Fetuses, Periods, and Wanking

[Alixanderia]

[...] Completely wrong and un ethical!!! A child would be much better off alive then dead. I guarantee it.

Turning into Justin Wilson, are we?
And a non-sentient being is just as well off dead as it is any other way. It doesn't feel pain, it doesn't know it exists, and it could potentially grow up in a home that doesn't want it, that abuses it, that neglects it... You really think a child being abused or neglected is better than a clump of preperson cells going into the trash? It isn't a human, it isn't a person, it doesn't get the right to hijack my body for any reason, whether I was raped, had unprotected sex, or my birth control failed. It's my choice whether or not I keep it.

[Grenartia]

I love my period! YEAH, go free, my heathen eggs!

But all jokes aside, it's not a person, it doesn't deserve personhood, and it doesn't get to hijack my body if I don't want it. And I *love* guys jerking off. *fans self*

*jerks teh handle off of his dresser drawer*

I herd you liek?



In all seriousness, why doesn't it deserve personhood, especially after the development of brain functions and a heartbeat?

[Dempublicents1]

Oops, sorry, I accidentally deleted the "of childbearing age" there. It's roughly 40% of all women aged 15 to 44.

Hmm, I was hoping it was of all women, and that the childbearing age percentage would be higher.

There are plenty of contraindications for hormonal birth control that can lead to a woman using other options. For instance, I know a woman who cannot use hormonal birth control and therefore has an IUD instead. It's also expensive, particularly if you don't have insurance that covers it, so many women might fall back on condom use instead. That age range will also include plenty of women actively trying to conceive and women who are not yet (or currently) sexually active. So the 40% is actually quite high, when you think about it.

Ok. So its ok with you if I go back in time and convince your mother to abort you, because she was born and you weren't?

Personally, I would much rather never being born to having my mother forced to carry a pregnancy to term against her will. In fact, I'd rather you shoot me in the face right now than force my mother to carry a pregnancy to term (which isn't possible anymore, but I'm sure you get the point).

But, then again, I love my mother.

I think he's saying that calling a fetus a nonperson is inherently contradictory, as it can be murdered, and the perpetrator charged with murder.

It is important to note, of course, that the laws making the death of a fetus murder were specifically pushed by those in favor of forced pregnancy specifically so that they could make the "SEE! THE LAW DOES SAY IT'S MURDER!" argument.

[Alixanderia]

I love my period! YEAH, go free, my heathen eggs!

But all jokes aside, it's not a person, it doesn't deserve personhood, and it doesn't get to hijack my body if I don't want it. And I *love* guys jerking off. *fans self*

*jerks teh handle off of his dresser drawer*

I herd you liek?



In all seriousness, why doesn't it deserve personhood, especially after the development of brain functions and a heartbeat?

It's non sentient, has never been sentient, and won't be sentient until at least the third trimester, and some scientists even debate THAT, and is a leech on my personal health and I'd rather scrape a pre-human off the cells of my uterine wall than give birth to someone that I know is either going to potentially rot in an orphanage, be unwanted, or not have the things it needs because I can't take care of it financially or emotionally. I think the best thing a woman can to is to abort the fetus if she doesn't want it, can't afford it, or is mentally incapable of providing for it. There are millions of children every year who will not get adopted, who have to wait another year to hope they can... And then after age seven, they're pretty much screwed, because people only want cutesy babies and toddlers and not an adolescent that will likely already be scarred by the orphanage and suffer mental or emotional damage. There are millions of children who will be abused or neglected or be too poor to afford basics like good food, clothes, and basic housing. And no child deserves that kind of hell.

[Bitchkitten]

In the hopes of stopping a threadjack here, I have made yet another abortion debate thread. Basically, the debate is about whether fetuses are real people, or whether by that logic if wanking and periods are murder, etc, etc, etc.

Here are the posts:

-Do not look... But still have potential. More potential than an orange seed does to become an apple.

Well, bread isn't toast yet.

So if eggs and sperm can eventually become a baby, that means they're sacred and must be protected. Mastrubation and going through your menstrual cycle without getting pregnant are murder. Just taking your supposition to it's logical end.

And what if I object to the whole experience of pregnancy? Or are you one of those people that believe that if you dare have sex you must take a kid as consequence?

Thoughts^TM?

Well, I think the OP makes my stance pretty obvious. If it's in my body, I get to do what I want with it. If I go in nine months pregnant and want it removed immediately, it should be my option. Now if I end up getting a viable fetus removed, they should be allowed to save it if theyt wish, but it's not my responsibility.

Realistically anyone who waits to past the first trimester is either a fucking idiot or something has gone drastically wrong with the pregnancy.

[Wikipedia and Universe]

Pro-choice with logical term limits (after 20 weeks once the rudimentary cognitive faculties start firing online = nono, prior to that the baby, by definition, is just a cluster of cells no more human than a plant).

I can abide by that. I know that technically makes me Pro-choice, but for some reason, I prefer to call myself Pro-life.

So you're like a duck trying to be a rooster? After about 24 weeks (I think that's the scientifically deemed period when the cognitive faculty thing-dong starts) I think traditional abortion should not be an option. After that, wait a certain time window until the unborn really has a chance of surviving outside, and then either induce birth or c-section it. Incubate, and then give the mother the option of signing away parental rights. Gren, I think you are actually pro-choice, although you could consider yourself "pro-life" since that was taken as a vague term and then had its meaning taken over by those who are anti-choice. It's kind of in the same vein as those liberal bumper stickers that say you are pro-family because you don't support destroying families. It's basically as though Republicants created the term "pro-life" to mean that if you are pro-choice you hate life, or created "pro-family" to say that anyone who supports homosexuality, porn, etc, or who doesn't agree with the fundamentalist Christist view of the family must hate families.

In conclusion, the terms "pro-life" and "pro-family" in their popular meanings are actually designed as strawman terms.

[Dempublicents1]

So what you people who are pro choice are really saying is its OK to murder this very small and completely innocent child. But if you kill a human with a gun on a street it is completely wrong. That makes no sense.

If a human being on the street were doing to my body what a pregnancy eventually will and I shot him to stop it, I would never be charged because the prosecutor would see it as an open-and-shut case of self-defense.

If you think its ok for you or anyone to have the authority to stop a life then you are seriously screwed up.

Do you give blood when you can? Are you on a bone marrow registry in case someone needs bone marrow of your type? Are you an organ donor? Would you give a kidney or half of your liver to anyone who needed it? If the answer to any of these questions is "no", you have made the decision to stop someone's life by denying them the tissues or organs they need to survive.

I never said it wasn't ok not to have sex. I'll be the last person to say that. I'm just saying take some damn responsibility. If you can't afford/don't want a kid, put the woman on the pill, and make the dude wear a condom.

1 oz. Prevention = 1 lb. Cure

Its that fucking simple.

So it's ok to abort if you do that and still get pregnant? What if the woman cannot be on the pill for medical reasons?

I know a woman who got pregnant while on the pill, after she and her boyfriend used both a spermicidal sponge and a condom. Would you have been ok with her aborting if that's what she chose?

There's only one way to be pro-life. Unless you want anti choice on there.

Not really true. The term has pretty consistently been used both in a legal sense and an individual point of view. When used in a legal discussion, it generally means that one is in favor of forced pregnancy. When used on an individual level, it generally means that one is opposed to abortion.

A fetus can legally be considered a victim of a crime in over 30 states. So if it can be a victim of murder, then why do we still not consider it a person? Because a long ass fucking time ago (the better part of a century, I believe) some people wanted to have the ability to murder their own child/children, get off scott-free, and still be able to sleep at night.

You've actually got your order backwards there. Fetal "murder" laws came about when the anti-choice crowd wanted to make the same argument you're currently making. They basically didn't exist prior to Roe v. Wade (in the US). Even then, they are rarely (if ever) used before the point at which elective abortions become illegal in most of the country.

[Grenartia]

I can abide by that. I know that technically makes me Pro-choice, but for some reason, I prefer to call myself Pro-life.

So you're like a duck trying to be a rooster? After about 24 weeks (I think that's the scientifically deemed period when the cognitive faculty thing-dong starts) I think traditional abortion should not be an option. After that, wait a certain time window until the unborn really has a chance of surviving outside, and then either induce birth or c-section it. Incubate, and then give the mother the option of signing away parental rights. Gren, I think you are actually pro-choice, although you could consider yourself "pro-life" since that was taken as a vague term and then had its meaning taken over by those who are anti-choice. It's kind of in the same vein as those liberal bumper stickers that say you are pro-family because you don't support destroying families. It's basically as though Republicants created the term "pro-life" to mean that if you are pro-choice you hate life, or created "pro-family" to say that anyone who supports homosexuality, porn, etc, or who doesn't agree with the fundamentalist Christist view of the family must hate families.

In conclusion, the terms "pro-life" and "pro-family" in their popular meanings are actually designed as strawman terms.

*jerks teh handle off of his dresser drawer*

I herd you liek?



In all seriousness, why doesn't it deserve personhood, especially after the development of brain functions and a heartbeat?

It's non sentient, has never been sentient, and won't be sentient until at least the third trimester, and some scientists even debate THAT, and is a leech on my personal health and I'd rather scrape a pre-human off the cells of my uterine wall than give birth to someone that I know is either going to potentially rot in an orphanage, be unwanted, or not have the things it needs because I can't take care of it financially or emotionally. I think the best thing a woman can to is to abort the fetus if she doesn't want it, can't afford it, or is mentally incapable of providing for it. There are millions of children every year who will not get adopted, who have to wait another year to hope they can... And then after age seven, they're pretty much screwed, because people only want cutesy babies and toddlers and not an adolescent that will likely already be scarred by the orphanage and suffer mental or emotional damage. There are millions of children who will be abused or neglected or be too poor to afford basics like good food, clothes, and basic housing. And no child deserves that kind of hell.

Yea, it sucks too have a hard life (I personally know a girl who's mom had her when she was 15, and had to take care of her younger siblings until the government came and put them in foster care), but all negative experiences can be transformed to create a positive.

[Wikipedia and Universe]

I never said it wasn't ok not to have sex. I'll be the last person to say that. I'm just saying take some damn responsibility. If you can't afford/don't want a kid, put the woman on the pill, and make the dude wear a condom.

1 oz. Prevention = 1 lb. Cure

Its that fucking simple.

So it's ok to abort if you do that and still get pregnant? What if the woman cannot be on the pill for medical reasons?

Gren actually said that he can "abide by" abortion within logical term limits.

[Krolkon]

I'm both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. I am Pro-life in the sense that I would never have an abortion. I am Pro-Choice in the sense that it's my choice to make. Well, me and basic human anatomy.

What if it's a taco you made and it was imperfect? Wouldn't you abort it?!

... A taco is not a person. Tacos are tacos. People are people. People eat tacos. The End.

[Alixanderia]

It's non sentient, has never been sentient, and won't be sentient until at least the third trimester, and some scientists even debate THAT, and is a leech on my personal health and I'd rather scrape a pre-human off the cells of my uterine wall than give birth to someone that I know is either going to potentially rot in an orphanage, be unwanted, or not have the things it needs because I can't take care of it financially or emotionally. I think the best thing a woman can to is to abort the fetus if she doesn't want it, can't afford it, or is mentally incapable of providing for it. There are millions of children every year who will not get adopted, who have to wait another year to hope they can... And then after age seven, they're pretty much screwed, because people only want cutesy babies and toddlers and not an adolescent that will likely already be scarred by the orphanage and suffer mental or emotional damage. There are millions of children who will be abused or neglected or be too poor to afford basics like good food, clothes, and basic housing. And no child deserves that kind of hell.

Yea, it sucks too have a hard life (I personally know a girl who's mom had her when she was 15, and had to take care of her younger siblings until the government came and put them in foster care), but all negative experiences can be transformed to create a positive.

Take the Holocaust. Over 6 million innocent people were killed by one asshole, but thanks to that, whenever another asshole tries to wipe an entire people of off the face of the planet, the world moves in to stop him before he can do it. Also, the Nazis vastly increased our medical knowledge (particularly the effects of smoking) because of their experiments on the Jews. I'm not justifying the Holocaust here, but still.

First, comparing abortion and the holocaust is not accurate. However, to play on that, how many single humans who survived the actual holocaust were mentally scarred for the rest of their life, having to relive the trauma for the rest of their life? Who died because once they were able to eat, they ate too much for their starved body to handle? Who committed suicide or suffered until death because they had no family left, no place to be, and were scared? You would rather the holocaust have happened, for millions to die, so that we could "learn" something that we would have learned anyway?

No born child should ever suffer. We need to make abortion an easy option for all women so that they don't HAVE to suffer. Because nothing good comes from an abused, depressed, neglected, abandoned child, except maybe some anti-abuse activists. Instead, you remove something that isn't even a person, that doesn't feel pain, that isn't sentient, that will never have been aware it had the possibility of being a human. And then orphanages can be used only by those were family died or something went terribly, terribly wrong. All babies should be wanted, loved, and provided for, and if you say any differently, then I can't say I find you to be humane.

[Bitchkitten]

Yea, it sucks too have a hard life (I personally know a girl who's mom had her when she was 15, and had to take care of her younger siblings until the government came and put them in foster care), but all negative experiences can be transformed to create a positive.

Take the Holocaust. Over 6 million innocent people were killed by one asshole, but thanks to that, whenever another asshole tries to wipe an entire people of off the face of the planet, the world moves in to stop him before he can do it. Also, the Nazis vastly increased our medical knowledge (particularly the effects of smoking) because of their experiments on the Jews. I'm not justifying the Holocaust here, but still.

First, comparing abortion and the holocaust is not accurate. However, to play on that, how many single humans who survived the actual holocaust were mentally scarred for the rest of their life, having to relive the trauma for the rest of their life? Who died because once they were able to eat, they ate too much for their starved body to handle? Who committed suicide or suffered until death because they had no family left, no place to be, and were scared? You would rather the holocaust have happened, for millions to die, so that we could "learn" something that we would have learned anyway?

No born child should ever suffer. We need to make abortion an easy option for all women so that they don't HAVE to suffer. Because nothing good comes from an abused, depressed, neglected, abandoned child, except maybe some anti-abuse activists. Instead, you remove something that isn't even a person, that doesn't feel pain, that isn't sentient, that will never have been aware it had the possibility of being a human. And then orphanages can be used only by those were family died or something went terribly, terribly wrong. All babies should be wanted, loved, and provided for, and if you say any differently, then I can't say I find you to be humane.

Oh yeah, and you might want to add that the place a child is most likely to be either physically or sexually abused is in foster care.

[Wiztopia]

A fetus can legally be considered a victim of a crime in over 30 states. So if it can be a victim of murder, then why do we still not consider it a person? Because a long ass fucking time ago (the better part of a century, I believe) some people wanted to have the ability to murder their own child/children, get off scott-free, and still be able to sleep at night.

A fetus cannot be murdered.

[Galloism]

A fetus can legally be considered a victim of a crime in over 30 states. So if it can be a victim of murder, then why do we still not consider it a person? Because a long ass fucking time ago (the better part of a century, I believe) some people wanted to have the ability to murder their own child/children, get off scott-free, and still be able to sleep at night.

A fetus cannot be murdered.

Legally, yes it can.

Since murder is a legal term and all that, it would not be unreasonable to see what the law says, as to whether a fetus can be murdered.

The law says it can.

[Alixanderia]

A fetus can legally be considered a victim of a crime in over 30 states. So if it can be a victim of murder, then why do we still not consider it a person? Because a long ass fucking time ago (the better part of a century, I believe) some people wanted to have the ability to murder their own child/children, get off scott-free, and still be able to sleep at night.

A fetus cannot be murdered.

I think some of the laws stand that if a woman who wanted to keep the child is assaulted and the fetus "dies," they can count it as "murder," moreso if the child takes a breath outside of the womb and then dies from trauma. Though I think these should be changed to assault with damage to a preborn fetus, and be a slightly more criminal offense than normal assault, not murder.

[Wiztopia]

A fetus cannot be murdered.

Legally, yes it can.

Since murder is a legal term and all that, it would not be unreasonable to see what the law says, as to whether a fetus can be murdered.

The law says it can.

The law does not say a fetus can be murdered. By that logic then every abortion is murder. Only Christians want that to be true.

[Galloism]

I think he's saying that calling a fetus a nonperson is inherently contradictory, as it can be murdered, and the perpetrator charged with murder.

It is important to note, of course, that the laws making the death of a fetus murder were specifically pushed by those in favor of forced pregnancy specifically so that they could make the "SEE! THE LAW DOES SAY IT'S MURDER!" argument.

Your time-traveling mind reading skills are stupendous.

When was the last time you wrote to (politician of your choice) and asked that crime be removed and replaced with "destruction of fetal property", a class D felony?

[Galloism]

Legally, yes it can.

Since murder is a legal term and all that, it would not be unreasonable to see what the law says, as to whether a fetus can be murdered.

The law says it can.

The law does not say a fetus can be murdered. By that logic then every abortion is murder. Only Christians want that to be true.

Just like every killing is murder?

No, the laws are specially crafted to except abortion from the murder statute, in order to be in compliance with SCOTUS.

It remains, though, that in certain circumstances a fetus can be murdered. I linked on page two to the laws of 38 states, and someone else linked to the Unborn Victims of Violence act.

Reading the thread would be good for you.

[Wiztopia]

The law does not say a fetus can be murdered. By that logic then every abortion is murder. Only Christians want that to be true.

Just like every killing is murder?

No, the laws are specially crafted to except abortion from the murder statute, in order to be in compliance with SCOTUS.

It remains, though, that in certain circumstances a fetus can be murdered. I linked on page two to the laws of 38 states, and someone else linked to the Unborn Victims of Violence act.

Reading the thread would be good for you.

The laws are wrong then. They were only created so pro-lifers could push their agenda.

[Galloism]

Just like every killing is murder?

No, the laws are specially crafted to except abortion from the murder statute, in order to be in compliance with SCOTUS.

It remains, though, that in certain circumstances a fetus can be murdered. I linked on page two to the laws of 38 states, and someone else linked to the Unborn Victims of Violence act.

Reading the thread would be good for you.

The laws are wrong then. They were only created so pro-lifers could push their agenda.

That may be. However, as it stands, a fetus can be murdered.

[Dempublicents1]

It is important to note, of course, that the laws making the death of a fetus murder were specifically pushed by those in favor of forced pregnancy specifically so that they could make the "SEE! THE LAW DOES SAY IT'S MURDER!" argument.

Your time-traveling mind reading skills are stupendous.

I don't have to time travel to look at the history. These laws were pushed into place by the anti-choice crowd after Roe v. Wade. When abortion was widely illegal, there were no such laws and abortion itself was not treated as if it were murder. In fact, the complete lack of such laws was brought up during the case as evidence that the law did not treat fetal death in the same way as the death of a born human being.

These laws are and always have been a back-door to restrict abortion.

When was the last time you wrote to (politician of your choice) and asked that crime be removed and replaced with "destruction of fetal property", a class D felony?

Never, but it wouldn't really make sense to make it a property crime anyway. It should be an extension of existing assault laws - making it a harsher crime if you cause fetal death. Not that writing to my legislators would do any good. They're all in favor (at least in public) of forced pregnancy.

[Wiztopia]

The laws are wrong then. They were only created so pro-lifers could push their agenda.

That may be. However, as it stands, a fetus can be murdered.

Logic and common sense says otherwise.

[Grenartia]

First, comparing abortion and the holocaust is not accurate. However, to play on that, how many single humans who survived the actual holocaust were mentally scarred for the rest of their life, having to relive the trauma for the rest of their life? Who died because once they were able to eat, they ate too much for their starved body to handle? Who committed suicide or suffered until death because they had no family left, no place to be, and were scared? You would rather the holocaust have happened, for millions to die, so that we could "learn" something that we would have learned anyway?

No born child should ever suffer. We need to make abortion an easy option for all women so that they don't HAVE to suffer. Because nothing good comes from an abused, depressed, neglected, abandoned child, except maybe some anti-abuse activists. Instead, you remove something that isn't even a person, that doesn't feel pain, that isn't sentient, that will never have been aware it had the possibility of being a human. And then orphanages can be used only by those were family died or something went terribly, terribly wrong. All babies should be wanted, loved, and provided for, and if you say any differently, then I can't say I find you to be humane.

Oh yeah, and you might want to add that the place a child is most likely to be either physically or sexually abused is in foster care.

So, a better alternative would be for a 7 year-old girl to take care of her 2 younger siblings because their mom didn't really give a fuck? Yeah, my friend's foster parents can be assholes (they think she's a slut because she's friends with a lot of guys, mainly me and my friends, but its more of a sibling relationship than anything else), but they keep her in a private school where she isn't exposed to constant sex, drugs, violence, and stupid bitches found in our local public school.

Wait a minute, you're right, dammit. You do have an excellent point. My friend was better off digging through garbage cans to feed her siblings. Thank you for enlightening me.

Yea, it sucks too have a hard life (I personally know a girl who's mom had her when she was 15, and had to take care of her younger siblings until the government came and put them in foster care), but all negative experiences can be transformed to create a positive.

Take the Holocaust. Over 6 million innocent people were killed by one asshole, but thanks to that, whenever another asshole tries to wipe an entire people of off the face of the planet, the world moves in to stop him before he can do it. Also, the Nazis vastly increased our medical knowledge (particularly the effects of smoking) because of their experiments on the Jews. I'm not justifying the Holocaust here, but still.

First, comparing abortion and the holocaust is not accurate. However, to play on that, how many single humans who survived the actual holocaust were mentally scarred for the rest of their life, having to relive the trauma for the rest of their life? Who died because once they were able to eat, they ate too much for their starved body to handle? Who committed suicide or suffered until death because they had no family left, no place to be, and were scared? You would rather the holocaust have happened, for millions to die, so that we could "learn" something that we would have learned anyway?

No born child should ever suffer. We need to make abortion an easy option for all women so that they don't HAVE to suffer. Because nothing good comes from an abused, depressed, neglected, abandoned child, except maybe some anti-abuse activists. Instead, you remove something that isn't even a person, that doesn't feel pain, that isn't sentient, that will never have been aware it had the possibility of being a human. And then orphanages can be used only by those were family died or something went terribly, terribly wrong. All babies should be wanted, loved, and provided for, and if you say any differently, then I can't say I find you to be humane.

Like I said, I'm not justifying the Holocaust here, and I'm not saying that it wasn't bad, but merely that while a lot of shit that happened was bad, because it did happen, in an effort to prevent a repeat, the world has become a better place.

I never said a child should suffer. Believe me, I've gone through a lot shit in the past 15 months. I know a little bit about needless suffering. But that suffering, and the suffering of my female friend, and the suffering of LGBT (I'm bi) community has driven me to strive to change society more than the '60's did.

Positive effect from negative cause.

That may be. However, as it stands, a fetus can be murdered.

Logic and common sense says otherwise.

Yeah, you certainly do make a good argument. All human beings who are underdeveloped have no right to live, so I'm going to go kill a couple of new borns right now!! Thanks, Wiztopia, my life has meaning now, thanks to you!!!!

[Hallistar]

In the hopes of stopping a threadjack here, I have made yet another abortion debate thread. Basically, the debate is about whether fetuses are real people, or whether by that logic if wanking and periods are murder, etc, etc, etc.

Here are the posts:

-Do not look... But still have potential. More potential than an orange seed does to become an apple.

Well, bread isn't toast yet.

So if eggs and sperm can eventually become a baby, that means they're sacred and must be protected. Mastrubation and going through your menstrual cycle without getting pregnant are murder. Just taking your supposition to it's logical end.

And what if I object to the whole experience of pregnancy? Or are you one of those people that believe that if you dare have sex you must take a kid as consequence?

Thoughts^TM?

I have mixed views on abortion, I think that while it should be allowed, it should be heavily restricted, perhaps less restrictions if the population skyrockets even more but the way doctors abort some of these babies including sticking a tube in them and sucking out their brains, butchering it flat out, etc, is just sickening.

[Dempublicents1]

I have mixed views on abortion, I think that while it should be allowed, it should be heavily restricted, perhaps less restrictions if the population skyrockets even more but the way doctors abort some of these babies including sticking a tube in them and sucking out their brains, butchering it flat out, etc, is just sickening.

Areas with heavy restrictions on abortion generally have higher abortion rates (as well as more complications from abortions) than those without such heavy restrictions. If you're want to reduce the number of abortions, it's best to support polices that reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, rather than policies that make abortions more difficult/dangerous for women.

As for how horrible abortion procedures sound - any medical procedure sounds pretty awful if you describe it in detail, particularly if you're trying to make it sound evil.