Abortion Debate- Fetuses, Periods, and Wanking

[Wiztopia]

Bias? All I know is that from my experience there are a number of "shades" of pro-choice, while being pro-life is fairly straightforward. Pro-life with exceptions is basically option 3. It's ambiguous so I couldn't decide.

What other options do you want?

I'm just saying, I'm Pro-life for different reasons than the Republicants on TV. They're Pro life for religious reasons. I'm Pro life because the fetus does have a right to live, and while the woman does have the right to do whatever she wants with her body, the fetus's right to live supercedes her right. Simply marking Pro life doesn't make that distinction.

Nope. Women's rights trump a fetus' "rights"

[Wikkiwallana]

Bias? All I know is that from my experience there are a number of "shades" of pro-choice, while being pro-life is fairly straightforward. Pro-life with exceptions is basically option 3. It's ambiguous so I couldn't decide.

What other options do you want?

I'm just saying, I'm Pro-life for different reasons than the Republicants on TV. They're Pro life for religious reasons. I'm Pro life because the fetus does have a right to live, and while the woman does have the right to do whatever she wants with her body, the fetus's right to live supercedes her right. Simply marking Pro life doesn't make that distinction.

Does the reason you support that stance affect what you might consider an acceptable reason for abortion, or if you believe there is such a thing? If it does not the distinction is irrelevant to the poll.

[Rhodmhire]

So, basically, abortion. Lots of roots, lots of paths, kind of like the way to truth. Only a lot bloodier and usually only for women (usually, I don't want to say always and be proven wrong with some obscure incident in the East or something of that nature).

As I stated before I created this thread for one reason- to stop a threadjack in another thread, not because I like prolonged abortion debates. What people do with this thread is their business henceforth.

EDIT: Ninja, you saw my clarification.

[/Desynchronized]

I find it a bit disturbing women use abortion as their main sources of birth control, but you can't restrict abortion for the life-styles of a few.

Time-wise, I'm pro-choice.

Source on women doing this?

While I can see how the idea is a tad bit disturbing, I might not be so surprised to find out that there are more unwanted pregnancies prevented via abortions than birth control pills and other means.

A chart comparing the two? Unknown to me, if it even exists, if it is even possible to make. Would it be a huge surprise? Honestly, not really. Although, abortion rates have been supposedly dropping in recent years, so that might impact my thoughts on it.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

I'm both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. I am Pro-life in the sense that I would never have an abortion. I am Pro-Choice in the sense that it's my choice to make. Well, me and basic human anatomy.

What if it's a taco you made and it was imperfect? Wouldn't you abort it?!

That would depend how imperfect. If we're talking too much salsa, I'll probably eat it anyway. If we're talking no cheese, I'd add cheese. If we're talking taco meat moving under it's own power, I'd probably put it in a jar and study it.

[The Norwegian Blue]

I find it stupid that there are 20,000 different options for Pro-choice, but only one for Pro-life. OP, please change this bias immediately.

It's so nice when the "pro-life" crowd comes right out and says "I have absolutely no idea what pregnancy entails!" It saves the rest of us the bother of taking your arguments seriously.

WTF are you talking about? Explain.

You quite voluntarily said that you see no difference between pregnancy and a situation in which your health is not in any way endangered, you are not being forced to have anything attached to your body against your will, your body is undergoing absolutely no changes, let alone permanent ones, and you are experiencing no physical pain. That would seem to make it pretty darn clear that you know fuck-all about pregnancy.

[Seltwar]

Unrestricted pro-choice.
Is an egg a chicken? No, its a egg.
Is a grain of sand a beach? No, it's just a grain.
Is a cell a tissue? No, its a cell not a tissue.
Is a foundation a building? No, its a foundation.
IE A fetus is not a person, its a fetus. IT has no heartbeat does not react to the outside environment it does not defend itself. Rocks share similar processes.
A fetus has more in common with a rock than a chicken. Sure they share the same elemental and chemical compounds, but thats it. An aluminum foil shares the same main material as a plane. Does that mean all aluminum foil's are planes? No.
Egg is not a chicken.
Fetus is not a person.

[Rhodmhire]

In what country do you live? My school year ended yesterday.

I'm straight out of the most wretched state in the United States. And don't listen to the other residents on here about how nice they think it is, Massachusetts is a horrible place.

But anyway, we got out on the same day as you, the 9th. Really early compared to some of the other local schools. Some are getting out around the 20th or even later.

We started around the 20-something of August in 2010, I left in June basically knowing that sophomore year was going to suck. Also felt like NS was losing its luster, thought I was losing my luster too. I needed meditation time.

[Wikkiwallana]

Source on women doing this?

While I can see how the idea is a tad bit disturbing, I might not be so surprised to find out that there are more unwanted pregnancies prevented via abortions than birth control pills and other means.

A chart comparing the two? Unknown to me, if it even exists, if it is even possible to make. Would it be a huge surprise? Honestly, not really. Although, abortion rates have been supposedly dropping in recent years, so that might impact my thoughts on it.

I'm highly skeptical that anyone without Münchausen Syndrome or something similar would prefer a medical procedure to an over the counter pill, especially when said pill can reduce period symptoms.

[Wiztopia]

In what country do you live? My school year ended yesterday.

I'm straight out of the most wretched state in the United States. And don't listen to the other residents on here about how nice they think it is, Massachusetts is a horrible place.

But anyway, we got out on the same day as you, the 9th. Really early compared to some of the other local schools. Some are getting out around the 20th or even later.

We started around the 20-something of August in 2010, I left in June basically knowing that sophomore year was going to suck. Also felt like NS was losing its luster, thought I was losing my luster too. I needed meditation time.

A state that allows gay marriage can't be a horrible place.

[Wikkiwallana]

What if it's a taco you made and it was imperfect? Wouldn't you abort it?!

That would depend how imperfect. If we're talking too much salsa, I'll probably eat it anyway. If we're talking no cheese, I'd add cheese. If we're talking taco meat moving under it's own power, I'd probably put it in a jar and study it.

What if the shell was on the inside, the meat was on the outside, the salsa was on the ceiling, and the cheese had somehow gotten air-mailed to Abu Dhabi?

[Rhodmhire]

Unrestricted pro-choice.
Is an egg a chicken? No, its a egg.
Is a grain of sand a beach? No, it's just a grain.
Is a cell a tissue? No, its a cell not a tissue.
Is a foundation a building? No, its a foundation.
IE A fetus is not a person, its a fetus. IT has no heartbeat does not react to the outside environment it does not defend itself. Rocks share similar processes.
A fetus has more in common with a rock than a chicken. Sure they share the same elemental and chemical compounds, but thats it. An aluminum foil shares the same main material as a plane. Does that mean all aluminum foil's are planes? No.
Egg is not a chicken.
Fetus is not a person.

To be honest, the whole "mother's rights > fetus's rights" thing is the keystone of this whole debate. It almost really wouldn't matter if the fetus was a person, I think. If it is, then it's a person who is totally dependent upon the mother until it is born. It cannot survive on its own without her nourishment. It does not provide anything of benefit to her directly (biologically speaking) except that it carries on her genetic material and continues the survival of the species in general. I don't see why its "rights" would overrule the mother's if it was unwanted.

Sure, it's probably going to end up being the pride and joy of her life, no shit about that. But that's emotion, that's family, not science.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

I'm Pro-Choice, so I can't give a damn either way.

[Rhodmhire]

A state that allows gay marriage can't be a horrible place.

Oh no, it's not teh gayz that make it bad, I love those guys. For a while, I thought they were making the place sparkle quite nicely.

But this isn't really the place for me to whine about how much I hate my home state. Some other time.

I'm highly skeptical that anyone without Münchausen Syndrome or something similar would prefer a medical procedure to an over the counter pill, especially when said pill can reduce period symptoms.

I'm not really trying to justify what he's saying, and I'm definitely not agreeing with it at all until I see some data. I'm just trying to see if I can't rationalize what he's saying.

Though, maybe it's just plain irrational and I'm wasting my time, I don't know.

[UCUMAY]

I have mixed opinions about abortion. I don't morally agree with the act of abortion. I also don't morally agree with forcing someone to survive an unwanted pregnancy. I do not agree with 'murder' or torture. So I have to find a balance that manages to equal out the needs of both. After all, what is the point in forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy when she will be locked in a padded room because of her suicide attempts? But at the same time why abort something that would be born hours later?

In summary.
I'm Pro-choice until the point of viability (around 20 weeks).

[The Norwegian Blue]

As I stated before I created this thread for one reason- to stop a threadjack in another thread, not because I like prolonged abortion debates. What people do with this thread is their business henceforth.

EDIT: Ninja, you saw my clarification.

[/Desynchronized]

Source on women doing this?

While I can see how the idea is a tad bit disturbing, I might not be so surprised to find out that there are more unwanted pregnancies prevented via abortions than birth control pills and other means.

A chart comparing the two? Unknown to me, if it even exists, if it is even possible to make. Would it be a huge surprise? Honestly, not really. Although, abortion rates have been supposedly dropping in recent years, so that might impact my thoughts on it.

It is quite obviously impossible to count the number of pregnancies prevented by hormonal contraception, condoms, etc., since you can't really count the number of pregnancies one didn't have.

That said, given that something like 40% of all women in the US are currently using hormonal contraception, and well over 10 BILLION condoms are used worldwide every year, it's more than a little silly to imagine that abortions are even remotely on the same scale of importance as a method of birth control.

[The Norwegian Blue]

While I can see how the idea is a tad bit disturbing, I might not be so surprised to find out that there are more unwanted pregnancies prevented via abortions than birth control pills and other means.

A chart comparing the two? Unknown to me, if it even exists, if it is even possible to make. Would it be a huge surprise? Honestly, not really. Although, abortion rates have been supposedly dropping in recent years, so that might impact my thoughts on it.

I'm highly skeptical that anyone without Münchausen Syndrome or something similar would prefer a medical procedure to an over the counter pill, especially when said pill can reduce period symptoms.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the only people who voluntarily opt for abortion as their primary method of birth control somehow manage to have severe latex allergies AND a horrible reaction to spermicides AND all the possible nasty side effects of every form of hormonal contraception. So, that might be, like, a whole four or five women.

[Marcheria]

Unrestricted pro-choice.
Is an egg a chicken? No, its a egg.
Is a grain of sand a beach? No, it's just a grain.
Is a cell a tissue? No, its a cell not a tissue.
Is a foundation a building? No, its a foundation.
IE A fetus is not a person, its a fetus. IT has no heartbeat does not react to the outside environment it does not defend itself. Rocks share similar processes.
A fetus has more in common with a rock than a chicken. Sure they share the same elemental and chemical compounds, but thats it. An aluminum foil shares the same main material as a plane. Does that mean all aluminum foil's are planes? No.
Egg is not a chicken.
Fetus is not a person.

Now THIS is a concrete argument. Hm, it's times like these I wish Drac wasn't banned, just to see his reaction.

[Wikkiwallana]

[/Desynchronized]



While I can see how the idea is a tad bit disturbing, I might not be so surprised to find out that there are more unwanted pregnancies prevented via abortions than birth control pills and other means.

A chart comparing the two? Unknown to me, if it even exists, if it is even possible to make. Would it be a huge surprise? Honestly, not really. Although, abortion rates have been supposedly dropping in recent years, so that might impact my thoughts on it.

It is quite obviously impossible to count the number of pregnancies prevented by hormonal contraception, condoms, etc., since you can't really count the number of pregnancies one didn't have.

That said, given that something like 40% of all women in the US are currently using hormonal contraception, and well over 10 BILLION condoms are used worldwide every year, it's more than a little silly to imagine that abortions are even remotely on the same scale of importance as a method of birth control.

Is that 40% of all women actually all women, or is it limited to those likely to get pregnant: tweens to late middle age?

[Wikkiwallana]

Unrestricted pro-choice.
Is an egg a chicken? No, its a egg.
Is a grain of sand a beach? No, it's just a grain.
Is a cell a tissue? No, its a cell not a tissue.
Is a foundation a building? No, its a foundation.
IE A fetus is not a person, its a fetus. IT has no heartbeat does not react to the outside environment it does not defend itself. Rocks share similar processes.
A fetus has more in common with a rock than a chicken. Sure they share the same elemental and chemical compounds, but thats it. An aluminum foil shares the same main material as a plane. Does that mean all aluminum foil's are planes? No.
Egg is not a chicken.
Fetus is not a person.

Now THIS is a concrete argument. Hm, it's times like these I wish Drac wasn't banned, just to see his reaction.

No, we really don't need him getting yet another thread derailed into a flamewar then locked.

[Threlizdun]

Pro choice

[Lunatic Goofballs]

That would depend how imperfect. If we're talking too much salsa, I'll probably eat it anyway. If we're talking no cheese, I'd add cheese. If we're talking taco meat moving under it's own power, I'd probably put it in a jar and study it.

What if the shell was on the inside, the meat was on the outside, the salsa was on the ceiling, and the cheese had somehow gotten air-mailed to Abu Dhabi?

Well, other than the need for some replacement cheese, it sounds like a very interesting taco.

[Rhodmhire]

It is quite obviously impossible to count the number of pregnancies prevented by hormonal contraception, condoms, etc., since you can't really count the number of pregnancies one didn't have.

That said, given that something like 40% of all women in the US are currently using hormonal contraception, and well over 10 BILLION condoms are used worldwide every year, it's more than a little silly to imagine that abortions are even remotely on the same scale of importance as a method of birth control.

Yeah, I'm basically done trying to defend him at this point. Not very good at doing that, especially when I don't really agree with him.

Guess I can cross lawyer off of my list of things I want to be when I'm a big boy.

[Galloism]

well over 10 BILLION condoms are used worldwide every year,

To be fair, I use like 30% of those.

It's only like 7 billion for the rest of the world excluding me.

[The Norwegian Blue]

It is quite obviously impossible to count the number of pregnancies prevented by hormonal contraception, condoms, etc., since you can't really count the number of pregnancies one didn't have.

That said, given that something like 40% of all women in the US are currently using hormonal contraception, and well over 10 BILLION condoms are used worldwide every year, it's more than a little silly to imagine that abortions are even remotely on the same scale of importance as a method of birth control.

Is that 40% of all women actually all women, or is it limited to those likely to get pregnant: tweens to late middle age?

Oops, sorry, I accidentally deleted the "of childbearing age" there. It's roughly 40% of all women aged 15 to 44.

[Wikipedia and Universe]

*snip because I'm about to argue with two other people in this same post*

My thing is that if some crazy chick gets an elective late-term abortion then should she get off scott-free? It's a bit between a rock and a hard place with statutory law vs. case law. As for your argument, I don't know if that's a slippery slope fallacy or, since anti-choicers have tried to pull such moves in the past, something which could be defeated by Section 3 of this IC law or a similar piece of RL legislation.

I'm straight out of the most wretched state in the United States. And don't listen to the other residents on here about how nice they think it is, Massachusetts is a horrible place. But anyway, we got out on the same day as you, the 9th. Really early compared to some of the other local schools. Some are getting out around the 20th or even later. We started around the 20-something of August in 2010, I left in June basically knowing that sophomore year was going to suck. Also felt like NS was losing its luster, thought I was losing my luster too. I needed meditation time.

I just completed my freshman year (started September 1st), and I mistook your statement to mean you had upcoming tests, as I know at least one person on here (lives in Philippines) who just started his school year. I just got done cramming like hell to get last-minute late shit done before the zeros just entered became permanent (I go to an online school and zeros can be reversed, but only from the current quarter and there is a shorter cutoff time with some teachers, and some of them enforce lateness penalties; only two of mine did), and had gone awake for 48 hours while getting a total of 3 hours of involuntary naps. I live in Pittsburgh, PA by the way. It's generally nice depending on the neighborhood.

I'm just saying, I'm Pro-life for different reasons than the Republicants on TV. They're Pro life for religious reasons. I'm Pro life because the fetus does have a right to live, and while the woman does have the right to do whatever she wants with her body, the fetus's right to live supercedes her right. Simply marking Pro life doesn't make that distinction.

I wanted to avoid getting into motivations for opinions, only things about what you support. You have the right to your opinion, but you can express your motivations for such in a post. The only option which includes motivation for an opinion is a joke option.