NationStates

Avenio wrote:

Euronion wrote:no there are hormones that dictate the skin to stretch,

Nope, skin is elastic normally. No hormones required. If you pull on the skin on your hand right now, it'll stretch all on its own.

Euronion wrote:there are hormones that screen out harmful chemicals to the baby,

Sorry, that's active/passive transport, not hormones. It's rather more like a static filter than a screening process.

Euronion wrote:there are hormones for every function of the body, including hunger, and thirst

Ehh, kindasorta. It's way more complicated than that.

DaWoad wrote:not sure that's true. Didn't phalidomide do the damamge it did because it changed around the hormones essential to development in the fetus?

I was more referring to the mother's own hormones, but yeah, I think that's right.

DaWoad wrote:Some other developmental disorders are also hormonally based IIRC (cretinism, the lack of iodine leading to insufficient thyroid hormones)

As far as I remember, I think most congenital hypothyroidic conditions are genetic in nature. I could be wrong.

DaWoad wrote:that said, artificial hormones and problem solved.

Heh, if males really want to go for the full experience, we can even give them the full hormonal swings associated, too.

DaWoad wrote:and, this. In fact there are a couple of cases where fetuses have grown to near-viability and, I think, even been delivered having grown on an abdominal wall/wall of the intestines in a woman.

Yep. Even a set of twins was born from an ectopic pregnancy successfully.

thanks avenio you've once again proven that you're more on the ball than me *nods*.

The Black Forrest wrote:

The Kings Council wrote:it's her choice if she keeps it so why should he be imprisoned for not taking care of it

*shrugs* You don't want children, get yourself cut. Problem solved.

why she should just have an abortion or better yet get her tubes tied

Greater Americania wrote:

The Parkus Empire wrote:Of course they're still "your" (word is a little vague, here) children, but that's totally irrelevant.

Oh, I see. They are our children, but just not as much as they are the mother's. Oh, wow. What an eye-opener. Here I was lost in the Dark Ages.

Uh, no, you just don't get rights over the woman's body to create "your" child. After the kid is born, you have the same rights to her/him as the mother.

you people seem to be forgeting something its just as much responsibility to a women to make sure theres condoms involved so for instanes if i got my girlfriend pregnant but i was overly drunk and she was sober its still my responsibility to remember to were protection when im barly standing or is it hers when shes completly sober and if i got her pregnant and later down the track she wanted to have a abortion but i wanted to keep the baby and i didn't want it to die, i have no say even though my gf was at fault and if she didn't want the child she should of worn protection.

and again what happens if i didn't want the child but she did then as i have no choise in the matter will be stuck supporting a child i didn't want for a minimum of 18 years

abortion should only happen with consent from BOTH parents...

DaWoad wrote:

The Kings Council wrote:there's the basic difference i believe it's a child even before it's born.

on what basis?

Religious &/ Ethical Believes vs. Scientific Knowledge.

Conflicting interests here

Its a fact, That if the guy gets a girl pregnant, we have to pay child support etc etc.

But if the guy wants the baby and the girl doesn't. It IS the girls right to do what SHE wants with her body.

Long story short, In her body, Her choice regardless

The Kings Council wrote:

Shadow25 wrote: never know that ejaculating can be as hard as carrying a baby for 9 months

right cause i got all of the symptoms and she got none, gain no weight, slept regularly didn't thow up one time. When she left me i had no rights to even know how my child was doing. While she was on drugs and sleeping i stayed awake for 7 days in the hospital until my son was born. i was the one who had the hormone shift happen to me(my doctor was stunned). She said her c-section was easier then she ever expected. i moved her into my house and took care of her and my son. don't tell me all i had to do was ejaculate. you know nothing. to this day i'm fighting in court just to even see my son. reproductive rights extend past birth those same laws say i'm not as fit of a parent because i'm not a woman.

why would you have to do that to impregnate a woman in the first place? most people don't have such problems in impregnating a woman and i really don't think that you suffered all the pregnancy period as much as her (if you did that would be a rare occurrence), we don't have the same laws of who gets custody of children as in USA so i can't judge on that, the thing is children have been a way for men to control their wives here for a long time, and it ends badly for both women and the children

The Kings Council wrote:

The Black Forrest wrote:
*shrugs* You don't want children, get yourself cut. Problem solved.

why she should just have an abortion or better yet get her tubes tied

Sure. However, a vasectomy is much easier on the male......

Alien Space Bats wrote:

Euronion wrote:
so your basically saying that if I get my girlfirend pregnant, I pay for everything, I support her, I want to have a child, she can just say, I want to kill the baby because I want a baby when I want it...

Pretty much. I mean, whose body is doing all the hard work and taking the risk, anyway? Hers... or yours?

You want the right to decide? Then you carry the damned thing.

Sticking your dick inside a woman doesn't make her body yours.

Euronion wrote:... sounds more like a stuborn child herself...

You're kidding me, right? You want the right to commandeer her body for your reproductive purposes, and you think her wanting a say in the matter makes her a stubborn child?!?

The childish thing here is not her demanding the right to control her own destiny; the childish thing here is you insisting that you have the right to veto her decision for your own selfish purposes.

Gloria Steinem put it succinctly: "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, too."

Euronion wrote:... if it is your son that is going to be murdered...

The surest sign of a man who's a sexist: Talking about "sons" instead of "children", because everybody knows that daughters aren't real people.

Euronion wrote:... because your girlfriend just didn't feel like itm it is somehow correct...

Again, I ask: Whose body is doing all the work and taking all the risk?

Euronion wrote:... I can understand taking this to court and then judging whether the father is prepared to take care of the child if the mother refuses, but this puts the woman in absolute power...

Of course she has absolute power: It's her God-damned body, not yours. She's a living human being, not a walking incubator for your progeny.

Euronion wrote:... and in absolute power of your reprofuction, meaning, you cannot have a child until the woman wants you to, and if you can't. too bad bub looks like your family which has survived evolution for millions of years, that survived the Black Plague, that has lasted for generations, is going to die out because the woman did not feel like it

LOL! You're bitching because you can't demand that a woman bear your child? What kind of fucking chutzpah is that?

If you're that set on making sure you have a baby, go knock up some good Bible-thumper.

1. that baby is carring the genetic material of both parents it is not some toy that can be thrown away with inconvenience
2. what? I have a wife and I would stand up for her rights at any time, at what point did I say women were not people
3. I would and still am happy whether I have a son or daughter, and what the hell are yout alkign about, i ahve two daughters
4.again it doesn't matter who is taking the risk, what matters is that it is YOUR progen as well and you should ahve a say as to how it is treated
5. I never said that she is not a human beign or an incubator, in a consenting pregnancy she should not simply say I don't feel like it and abort
6. what? I can't understand what youa re trying to say in the last one at all, seriously, where did I say I DEMAND that she carry my child, if she decided to have the child consentingly, then she decided in full knowledge of the risks involved and also agreed to have the child, and to suddenly abort it is a cowardly tactic, I already have children so I'm fine

after reading your responses, you putting words in my mouth, I never said women were not people, I never said that daughters weren't real children, ou seem to be a radical calling me a radical because how dare me ever ever try to demand rights for myself, right men, we should just lie down and let the women trample over us, let them take awa our rights, our right to vote will be next just don't say I didn't warn ou, radicals like that one above are the type of people that turn our civilization backwards, In my opinion both sides have equal claim and that calim, if contradictory, should be judged in a court of law

hahaha a thread about abortion that got really heated really fast? no way!

a'ight, I think all the relevant points about a woman's right to control what happens inside her own freakin' body have been hit already (tho it doesn't seem to be getting through the brick wall) so I'll play devil's advocate:

Just because a man should not have any legal right to force a woman to carry and give birth to a fetus/child, does NOT mean that his feelings about it shouldn't be taken into consideration (not legally but socially). Any responsible hetero woman who gets herself into an unplanned situation needs to give her baby daddy a fair hearing. Just because no one should be forced to carry a kid doesn't mean that going through with having the kid, even to give it up for adoption, can't be a very noble, very good thing.

And frankly, I think there's a fair case to be made for NOT forcing men to pay child support for children they didn't choose to have...

That being said, honestly, if ya wanna have a baby, guys, don't just have guilty Christian insanely unsafe unprotected spontaneous sex and then when she gets knocked up demand that she mother your seed.* Won't go over well. Find someone who WANTS TO HAVE A BABY, who says "gee, dude, I'd love to have your baby" a buncha times, makes plans, save money, get hitched paint a nursery, THEN knock her up. PRETTY sure she won't bust out the clotheshanger 8 months in.

On a side note, Euronion, you really sound like a product of abstinence-only education, pal. Please be assured that while nothing in life is certain, contraception, used properly, is pretty fuckin' for sure; much more effective than the abstinence method which is subject to human failings. If you can't shake your nerves about condoms, couple it with another method. What happened to your aunt, if accurate, was freakishly rare.

(Also, I know that was trolling & it's a whole 'nother topic but just gotta throw this out there: Men get raped. It's very sad that they are so shamed for it when they shouldn't be.)

Guys, whenever you think about forcing a woman to do anything with her body that she doesn't want just because you want her to, I want you to think of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JehjqlzXwIQ

enjoy.

Alien Space Bats wrote:

The Kings Council wrote:there's the basic difference i believe it's a child even before it's born.

Well, technically, it is - from around 24 weeks onward.

It's called "viability".

Again difference in thought process. Here's a guide I believe in the bible.

The Black Forrest wrote:

The Parkus Empire wrote:That's a terrible argument.

How so? He is bitching about the results and responsibilities of unprotected sex. One vasectomy and he can have all the unprotected sex he wants

He might want a kid down the road, and even "protected" sex can produce offspring.

Geniasis wrote:

Hathradic States wrote:As in "be excessively cruel". Can you think of any a crueler torture than to be prepared for fatherhood, to be prepared to love and cherish your child. To be willing to marry the mother, only to have said mother decide one day that she didn't want it and she gets an abortion. To me, that is one hell of a bitch move. I watched it happen to one of my friends, and he was nearly destroyed by it. To me, that is not right, and it is not just.

Tough shit. A woman's body doesn't belong to you. Tell you what, when it's your body carrying around the fetus for nine months, then you get to call the shots.

I hate that people like you are having more sex than I am.

I used to think like that, then I saw what happened to my friend. Besides, I am anti-abortion. Until most people here, I see life as existing from the momment of conception, and that life is a person.

Euronion wrote:because how dare me ever ever try to demand rights for myself, right men, we should just lie down and let the women trample over us, let them take awa our rights, our right to vote will be next just don't say I didn't warn ou

What is this I don't even.

You know what? I'm going to sig this. This is so mind-bogglingly stupid that I have to immortalize it.

The Black Forrest wrote:

The Kings Council wrote:why she should just have an abortion or better yet get her tubes tied

Sure. However, a vasectomy is much easier on the male......

So? Maybe the male wants kids. If the woman doesn't want a kid, she can get tied up.

DaWoad wrote:

The Kings Council wrote:there's the basic difference i believe it's a child even before it's born.

on what basis?

my spiritual beliefs nothing scientific just something that that majority of the world believes(or claims to)in.

donate to a sperm bank.

You get all the pleasure of the act of reproduction, and no future problems being awoken at 3 AM by a screaming infant.

Shikkago wrote:hahaha a thread about abortion that got really heated really fast? no way!

a'ight, I think all the relevant points about a woman's right to control what happens inside her own freakin' body have been hit already (tho it doesn't seem to be getting through the brick wall) so I'll play devil's advocate:

Just because a man should not have any legal right to force a woman to carry and give birth to a fetus/child, does NOT mean that his feelings about it shouldn't be taken into consideration (not legally but socially). Any responsible hetero woman who gets herself into an unplanned situation needs to give her baby daddy a fair hearing. Just because no one should be forced to carry a kid doesn't mean that going through with having the kid, even to give it up for adoption, can't be a very noble, very good thing.

And frankly, I think there's a fair case to be made for NOT forcing men to pay child support for children they didn't choose to have...

That being said, honestly, if ya wanna have a baby, guys, don't just have guilty Christian insanely unsafe unprotected spontaneous sex and then when she gets knocked up demand that she mother your seed.* Won't go over well. Find someone who WANTS TO HAVE A BABY, who says "gee, dude, I'd love to have your baby" a buncha times, makes plans, save money, get hitched paint a nursery, THEN knock her up. PRETTY sure she won't bust out the clotheshanger 8 months in.

On a side note, Euronion, you really sound like a product of abstinence-only education, pal. Please be assured that while nothing in life is certain, contraception, used properly, is pretty fuckin' for sure; much more effective than the abstinence method which is subject to human failings. If you can't shake your nerves about condoms, couple it with another method. What happened to your aunt, if accurate, was freakishly rare.

(Also, I know that was trolling & it's a whole 'nother topic but just gotta throw this out there: Men get raped. It's very sad that they are so shamed for it when they shouldn't be.)

Guys, whenever you think about forcing a woman to do anything with her body that she doesn't want just because you want her to, I want you to think of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JehjqlzXwIQ

enjoy.

Give it up. I just tried the same thing. They'll just ignore you.

The Parkus Empire wrote:

The Black Forrest wrote:
How so? He is bitching about the results and responsibilities of unprotected sex. One vasectomy and he can have all the unprotected sex he wants

He might want a kid down the road, and even "protected" sex can produce offspring.

Sure it does happen but the odds are far less then condom accidents. Vasectomy reversal works pretty well as I am told these days......

Hathradic States wrote:

Geniasis wrote:
Tough shit. A woman's body doesn't belong to you. Tell you what, when it's your body carrying around the fetus for nine months, then you get to call the shots.

I hate that people like you are having more sex than I am.

I used to think like that, then I saw what happened to my friend. Besides, I am anti-abortion. Until most people here, I see life as existing from the momment of conception, and that life is a person.

Yeah, some people think the Earth is flat. Doesn't make it true.

Anyway, it sounds like your friend should have communicated with his girlfriend rather than assume she was gonna have the baby. I hear communication is a real aphrodisiac, and makes for wild and fun times in the bed place where they do the intercourse things.

The Black Forrest wrote:

The Parkus Empire wrote:He might want a kid down the road, and even "protected" sex can produce offspring.

Sure it does happen but the odds are far less then condom accidents. Vasectomy reversal works pretty well as I am told these days......

Then, like condoms, it probably isn't a sure thing.

Euronion wrote:

Alien Space Bats wrote:Pretty much. I mean, whose body is doing all the hard work and taking the risk, anyway? Hers... or yours?

You want the right to decide? Then you carry the damned thing.

Sticking your dick inside a woman doesn't make her body yours.


You're kidding me, right? You want the right to commandeer her body for your reproductive purposes, and you think her wanting a say in the matter makes her a stubborn child?!?

The childish thing here is not her demanding the right to control her own destiny; the childish thing here is you insisting that you have the right to veto her decision for your own selfish purposes.

Gloria Steinem put it succinctly: "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, too."


The surest sign of a man who's a sexist: Talking about "sons" instead of "children", because everybody knows that daughters aren't real people.


Again, I ask: Whose body is doing all the work and taking all the risk?


Of course she has absolute power: It's her God-damned body, not yours. She's a living human being, not a walking incubator for your progeny.


LOL! You're bitching because you can't demand that a woman bear your child? What kind of fucking chutzpah is that?

If you're that set on making sure you have a baby, go knock up some good Bible-thumper.

1. that baby is carring the genetic material of both parents it is not some toy that can be thrown away with inconvenience

false dichotomy and, more importantly, It's . . .not . . . a baby.

2. what? I have a wife and I would stand up for her rights at any time, at what point did I say women were not people

you're promoting suborning her rights to the desire of men, I believe that that says it all.

4.again it doesn't matter who is taking the risk, what matters is that it is YOUR progen as well and you should ahve a say as to how it is treated

and, as soon as it leaves her body, you do.

5. I never said that she is not a human beign or an incubator, in a consenting pregnancy she should not simply say I don't feel like it and abort

taking away her right to do so makes her a human incubator how are you not getting this?

6. what? I can't understand what youa re trying to say in the last one at all, seriously, where did I say I DEMAND that she carry my child, if she decided to have the child consentingly, then she decided in full knowledge of the risks involved and also agreed to have the child, and to suddenly abort it is a cowardly tactic, I already have children so I'm fine

you're saying that you demand she carry your child every time you put forward this argument that men have the say in whether or not the woman has the right to an abortion. Again, really simple. If she has sex, gets pregnant and want's to abort, you are forcing her, against her will, to have said child if you do not allow her to abort the fetus.

after reading your responses, you putting words in my mouth, I never said women were not people, I never said that daughters weren't real children, ou seem to be a radical calling me a radical because how dare me ever ever try to demand rights for myself, right men, we should just lie down and let the women trample over us, let them take awa our rights, our right to vote will be next just don't say I didn't warn ou, radicals like that one above are the type of people that turn our civilization backwards, In my opinion both sides have equal claim and that calim, if contradictory, should be judged in a court of law

again, in the same way that a court does not have the right to say that something is not rape because the male has a better claim to sex with the woman, a court doesn't have the right to turn a woman into an incubator for any reason.

The Kings Council wrote:

DaWoad wrote:on what basis?

my spiritual beliefs nothing scientific just something that that majority of the world believes(or claims to)in.

I base mine off of the fact that I one seed of pot counts as a full plant when they come to prosecute you.

Hathradic States wrote:

The Black Forrest wrote:
Sure. However, a vasectomy is much easier on the male......

So? Maybe the male wants kids. If the woman doesn't want a kid, she can get tied up.

Dude, if you want kids FUCK WOMEN THAT WANT TO HAVE KIDS WITH YOU. if you don't want kids, USE PROTECTION, or just limit your activities to the pregnancy-free zones (still use protection so you don't get AIDS tho).

The Kings Council wrote:

DaWoad wrote:on what basis?

my spiritual beliefs nothing scientific just something that that majority of the world believes(or claims to)in.

So, something that has no necessary correlation to reality, as consensus does not reality make. Hmmm.... thrilling story there, pal.