Oppinions on abortion?

[Secular Sweden]

Why can't just all us guys get a vasectomy done, and be over with the discussion?

Because that wouldn't change anything....

All men on earth getting a vasectomy "wouldn't change anything"?

[Wiztopia]

Getting an abortion would make for better drama.

Then go pitch the show to a producer and see how many people are interested in watching people get abortions. Might be more than I think, you never know. But make sure you get some Jerry Springeresque people on the show.

I'm talking about on a show like that. The only reason the characters never got an abortion is because the creator is a huge anti-choicer who thinks you're committing a sin if you get one.

[Grave_n_idle]

No, being sick of your kind of nonsense engenders that emotion. I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just don't know what you're talking about,

I have a number of children of my own. I'm somewhat aware of the intricacy, difficulty, and complication to pregnancy even in the modern world.

So, I don;t think I don't know what I'm talking about.

Of course, I've not been a mother, so I admit my knowledge is second-hand at best... a factor you don't seem willing to admit.

So - I stick to the objective facts, while you appeal to emotion. That's not 'my kind of nonsense' - that's reality, and if you have a problem with it, that's your problem with reality.

but after you've conflated not adopting a child and actively killing a child I'm starting to think you're being deliberately disingenuous.

You don't want a child right now, so you won't have one.

I'm not conflating anything, I'm just pointing out your ridiculous degree of hypocrisy, and then marveling that anyone would even dare to try to defend it.

[Nulono]

Some stuffs.

1. Because birth is the threshold of legally being a person, endowed with all rights any other child has in whatever country they were born. Usually this includes the right to life, at least in Western nations. You can't kill people, that's murder. I don't have the desire to argue that this threshold should be bumped up to, say, 1 year old.
2. No. Agreeing that life begins at conception and saying it's a given ethical fact that having an abortion is wrong are two different claims that don't necessarily relate to each other. Also, I've never made a value judgement on the ethics of abortion, (actually I might have, but my ethical opinion on abortion is as irrelevant as yours is anyway), my only claim is there is no logical reason for it to be illegal.
4. It's not a justification for abortion. It's a justification for your argument's irrelevance. You claim fetus's have right to life; I can demostrate they don't. Demonstrating they shouldn't have one at all is different.
7. The fetus uses the same nutrients and oxygen as the mother. It is physically connected to her body through the umbilical cord. Biologically, a fetus IS a part of her body, just as much so as her hands and legs are. The problem is, one way or another, someone's "rights" are going to be infringed. It really comes down to the fact that it is worse to infringe on the rights of a grown adult than it is to infringe on the "rights" of an underdeveloped lump of cells incapable of thought and feeling. Not counting the numerous additional strains placed on the healthcare, social security, welfare, and foster care systems, among others. So you can call them people all you want, and I'll just say, I guess can make that point. But they're people that as far as I'm concerned it should be legally ok to slaughter; in the millions if people so decide to. Whether or not it is actually right or wrong and whether or not it they actually are or are not people isn't the point. The thing is for this to be legal, they can't be considered people; other wise it would legally be homicide. Therefore, fetuses can't be people.

So it's "anti-choice" to depict a mother choosing anything other than abortion?

Actually, abortions just make for bad tv. The show has a certain playout. Girl gets pregnant, has to deal with family, friends, and the father. She has to find a way to support the child, and to keep up with school. Throw in a deadbeat dad or something and you got a good solid 30-60 min chunk of D+ programming. Alternatively, girl gets pregnant, girl has abortion isn't (usually) quite so dramatic and doesn't fill out the timeslot as nicely. Besides, who actually likes watching abortions?

1. Again, something being the law doesn't make it right.
2. Are you denying the direct quote that I posted? You said that life beginning at conception is, quote, "not a given fact and is only subjectively true".
4. I claim that the fetus has a right to live, and you point out that the law doesn't recognize this right. This is doesn't mean the law is right, just that it is.
7. I'm not sure I follow. First of all, it's factually untrue that the fetus is part of the mother. Dependent, yes, but not part of. Secondly, putting strain on social services does NOT negate one's right to live. On the third hand, those last two sentences boil down to "It should be legal because the law says so.".
8. That is correct, just like the professor couldn't build a boat on Gilligan's Island. It would make for a very short show. It does not, however, make the show "anti-choice".

I'd say pro-life, though only in cases of genetic screening as its akin to eugenics.

So unhealthy fetuses should be protected, but not healthy ones?

Why can't just all us guys get a vasectomy done, and be over with the discussion?

Every single male on the planet? BTW, vasectomies aren't 100% effective.

Abortion should be mandatory in all cases. All women should be required to undergo tubal ligations; pregnancy causes all sorts of problems and we're better off without it. In order to keep a handle on population growth rates, fertile females with good genetics should be seized by the state as chattel, placed in breeding centers and forced to pop out babies until they are no longer capable of it. I'm guessing we could maintain current birth rates with, oh, 15% of the population used as raw breeding stock -- tops. It's probably best to start this process early (around age twelve or so) to minimise the likelihood of them having their heads filled with counterrevolutionary ideas and rebelling.

This is a reasonable compromise that I'm sure will please everyone equally.

Tbh if you don't want her to get pregnant, switch to anal.

That can still get her pregnant.

No, no more than you want men to rape people and then die from STIs, or to try to burn a neighbor's house down and die from smoke inhalation. The point is to make it more risky so as to deter people from doing it. We don't make it legal to violate someone's rights so that it can be done more safely. That's not the role of government.

No you want them to die from unsafe abortions because you want to make it harder for women to get them.

Do you want men to die from unsafe rape, arson, or murder?

Why must anti-choice shows like Secret life of the American Teenager exist?

No its anti-choice to force only one view point on the viewer. At least make it even and have at least one character abort.

Um, I'm pretty sure that only one character on the show was pregnant. What are you asking for, Schrödinger's abortion?

<snip>

Not adopting 10 children is a world away from killing your own child. You don't know what you're talking about if you can't tell the difference.

[Norstal]

Ewwww.

Hmm?

"It won't go in!"

Not that I'd complain. It'd be harder than normal sex...

[Norstal]

Tbh if you don't want her to get pregnant, switch to anal.

That can still get her pregnant.

You must have a very shitty aim.

[Grave_n_idle]

Not adopting 10 children is a world away from killing your own child. You don't know what you're talking about if you can't tell the difference.

Hey, it's your double standard, you justify it how you like.

You don't want the children, you won't have them - and there's not even any risk to your health.

But women? No, they have to remain 'pure' or they are whores, and they have to carry your seed if your magnanimous enough to spill it on them, or they are murderers.

People like you make me sick with your hypocrisy.

[Nulono]

That can still get her pregnant.

You must have a very shitty aim.

Or maybe there's leakage.

Not adopting 10 children is a world away from killing your own child. You don't know what you're talking about if you can't tell the difference.

Hey, it's your double standard, you justify it how you like.

You don't want the children, you won't have them - and there's not even any risk to your health.

But women? No, they have to remain 'pure' or they are whores, and they have to carry your seed if your magnanimous enough to spill it on them, or they are murderers.

People like you make me sick with your hypocrisy.

I never said any woman who has sex is a whore.
I am not adopting children. Abortion kills children. There's a difference. I really hope you're being deliberately obtuse.

[Grave_n_idle]

I am not adopting children. Abortion kills children.

No, it doesn't. No matter how emphatically you colour your appeals to emotion.

There's a difference. I really hope you're being deliberately obtuse.

Yes, the difference is you're a man, and thus don't deserve to be punished for fucking.

[Nulono]

I am not adopting children. Abortion kills children.

No, it doesn't. No matter how emphatically you colour your appeals to emotion.

Oh, it doesn't? I guess all those aborted fetuses are secretly alive, waiting to jump up and yell "SURPRISE!". Then we can all laugh at this silly misunderstanding.

There's a difference. I really hope you're being deliberately obtuse.

Yes, the difference is you're a man, and thus don't deserve to be punished for fucking.

I'm not asking for punishment for sex, just punishment for prolicide.

[Norstal]

You must have a very shitty aim.

Or maybe there's leakage.

...Leakage from what? That stuff must've move at .1 mm/s.

[Nulono]

Or maybe there's leakage.

...Leakage from what? That stuff must've move at .1 mm/s.

More like -9.8 m/s/s.

[UCUMAY]

Or maybe there's leakage.

...Leakage from what? That stuff must've move at .1 mm/s.

It's happened before where a woman will get pregnant from anal sex. It's not as likely as vaginal but it's a possibility.

[Lackadaisical2]

Everyone who gets an abortion is sinning at a level equivalent to murder, thats my opinion.

[Norstal]

...Leakage from what? That stuff must've move at .1 mm/s.

More like -9.8 m/s/s.

That's the acceleration...

It's happened before where a woman will get pregnant from anal sex. It's not as likely as vaginal but it's a possibility.

I don't doubt, but it's not hard to avoid...

[Nulono]

Everyone who gets an abortion is sinning at a level equivalent to murder,[sic] thats my opinion.

Everyone? Even to save their life?

[Grave_n_idle]

Oh, it doesn't? I guess all those aborted fetuses are secretly alive, waiting to jump up and yell "SURPRISE!". Then we can all laugh at this silly misunderstanding.

No, because they lac coherent brain function. They feel no pain, they have no thoughts. They have no emotion.

You might as well agonise about the pain you're going to cause the egg next time you make omelets.

I'm not asking for punishment for sex,

Yes, you are. And, specifically, only for women. If they are unlucky or careless, they deserve to be enslaves as incubators for almost a year.

just punishment for prolicide.

Really? You'd have unwilling fathers jailed if their girlfriends aborted?

Or is it just the women.

[Neurotic Pandas]

In my eyes, abortion should be legal.

The pro-life people can claim it kills children all they like, but I have yet to see them give me a proper reason to actually care about that.

Really? You'd have unwilling fathers jailed if their girlfriends aborted?

Or is it just the women.

Just the women, I suspect. most of the pro-life people seem to have a thing against women.

[Lackadaisical2]

Everyone who gets an abortion is sinning at a level equivalent to murder,[sic] thats my opinion.

Everyone? Even to save their life?

Yes. 'saving your life' is generally just a medical opinion, plenty of people have gone against it and lived.

[Soviet Haaregrad]

In my eyes, abortion should be legal.

The pro-life people can claim it kills children all they like, but I have yet to see them give me a proper reason to actually care about that.

But it kills children!!

Anti-choice uses appeal to emotion...
...It has no effect.

[Norstal]

Everyone? Even to save their life?

Yes. 'saving your life' is generally just a medical opinion, plenty of people have gone against it and lived.

Apparently you're not drunk enough to see that in some cases, both fetus and mother will die without an abortion.

[Polagin]

Banning this blasphemy would be the only sensible thing!

[Norstal]

In my eyes, abortion should be legal.

The pro-life people can claim it kills children all they like, but I have yet to see them give me a proper reason to actually care about that.

But it kills children!!

Anti-choice uses appeal to emotion...
...It has no effect.

Soviet Haaregrad uses Hyperbeam!

It's super effective!

[Norstal]

Banning this blasphemy would be the only sensible thing!

Naw, I like to blaspheme.

[Lackadaisical2]

Yes. 'saving your life' is generally just a medical opinion, plenty of people have gone against it and lived.

Apparently you're not drunk enough to see that in some cases, both fetus and mother will die without an abortion.

I"ll never be that drunk.